What is the place in our society that Cathlyn Jenner or Bruce Jenner deserve to have?

The Peace of God to all that belong to the Light,
Dear Readers,

God, I confess that although I have 8 years posting in ATS community it is really a challenge to me to initiate this thread. You know I was a very small child when this guy was an example of masculinity in the world. I confess that this is a topic in which I don't see clearly the boundaries on what is acceptable or not, or even natural, it is clearly a theme that possibly can't be described in just black and white, the problem is on which colors to paint it, soft harmonious pastel ones or in psychedelic vibrant ones?

Nevertheless, the people use to think that Angels don't have gender so some friends suggested me to open the thread and see what happen.

Well, the questions that I have to ask to my readers and that all point to the central topic of this thread are:

1) Does Bruce Jenner must retain his Athlete Gold medal of the Montreal 1976 Olympic games, that He gained as a man? in spite of his current self identification or future gender? ( In spite of what the Olympic International Committee has decided)

Bruce Jenner request of Olympic 1976 Gold medal revocation

2) Did Catlyn Jenner deserve to be portrayed in the Cover of Vanity fair Magazine in the way she ( or He) is right now? a Magazine that has a tradition of to be read by millions of women around the world?

www.vanityfair.com...

www.cnn.com...

3) Does Caitlyn Jenner deserve to receive ESPN's Arthur Ashe Courage Award? I mean is his or her decision to assume a change of Gender at this point of her or his life a genuine act of courage or not?

Caitlyn Jenner to receive ESPN's Arthur Ashe Courage Award

4) Do you think the current campaign in favor of Jenner's right to change of gender in the Media is creating a Smog curtain around the fatal wreck in which he was involved in February of 2015 and being sued since May of 2015? ( There is any difference to be judged as a man or as woman in court ? ).

www.cnn.com...

www.foxnews.com...

5) what impact has for the childhood of today these kind of cases of public figures that decide to do with their lives what they want invoking civil rights to do so? Is there any ethical constraints thinking in the influence that example can have in young minds to publish these decisions? There is a limit to the individual civil right or there is boundary that reach with the civil rights of the society as a whole? ( I am asking of the children of today since it is clear that being a Child when this Athlete won the Gold medal it has been shocking for me to see what is going on now)

6) Is the Transgender experience genuinely part of the Sexual diversity of a free and democratic society or it is perhaps a problem self image and therefore possibly of mental health? ( please support your answer if you dare to answer this question) if it is not a physical problem is it ethical from the medical point of view to practice a transition hormonal treatment and surgery to try to " change" artificially what the nature has done wrongly? What happen if a person has double or multiple personality disorder and at not all those personalities identify themselves with the same gender?

7) Is the so called Trans gender Transition preparation period, surgery and re-inclusion in the society really a Transition process or it is in fact a civil death following by a legal rebirth of a person that needs to start his life again as everything in his or her past was basically part of a great mistake? ( are the Laws prepared to deal with the corresponding change of name and hence of identity? for example a possible crime committed in a previous gender and so identity is still a crime after the change of gender and identity?)

Warning: ( Pls read this before to reply)

The thread is of course open to the free discussion and I only request to respect the norms of decorum and mutual respect in the replies, we are not here to demonize anybody, nor to condemn, or launch personal attacks, we are just discussing the ethical implications of the change of gender in the modern society and well if you feel that the topic stress you a lot, impress you so much to produce even nausea, I suggest you to take a good vomiting medication, practice deep breathing meditation, request professional therapy to phobia or relax a little before to enter with violent attitudes on it, with all respect.

Thanks for your attention,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

His place would be in the loony bin.

I don't have a problem with transgendered people. I don't think anyone needs to take Jenner's accolades away; nor do I think she deserves new accolades for becoming a woman.

That said, I've still never understood how the transgender operation is meant to be a solution to the transgender problem. I've debated this topic up and down with sociologists, therapists, LGBT activists and all sorts. It doesn't make sense to me. I have no problem with someone going through the procedure: it's a modern society. People have all kinds of modifications done to their body nowadays. But if the issue of "gender" is a pyschological one, and not, as they say, a matter of which set of genitals you were born with, what good does it do to have your genitals mangled and transformed into a non-functional replica of the opposite gender's? Basically, if being a male or a female is a state of being, and not a physical attribute, then what is the point of the surgery?

He/she can prance about anywhere he/she likes . He/she is exercising a personal right . No one's asking you to approve of the right. But it is a right nonetheless and should not be squelched.

But honestly I am waiting for he/she's first angry YouTube video . I would like to see whether it is a rant or a hissy fit .

He has every right to be whatever he (OR SHE)wants,but NOT mainstream news THAT much is for sure. It's non essential information and I couldn't care less what he or anyone wants in that regard,WE ALL have HUGE problems and we're wasting time with crap like this.

a reply to: The angel of light

I'm quite surprised that you're raising a subject of common gossip for us to further gossip about. Kardashian household on ATS, really?

Part of Caitlyn's memorabilia is an Olympic medal. It belongs rightfully to Caitlyn now, won fairly and squarely under a former identity. Why should people bother to pass judgments on something most of us simply do not understand? Who are we to say anything at all about it since we are not in her shoes?

Personally I could care less. If he's / she's OK with it that's their business. I'm just getting sick of hearing about it.

a reply to: The angel of light

There a multitude of things in this world that confuse me. This situation is one of them. Articulating it helps process this confusion. People seem to be elevating this person to a level of respect that I don't personally understand.

As a humanist, it's not my place to judge this human regardless of what they do with their free will. Providing of course it does not harm me. It's a demonstration of my faith in humanity to abandon the urge to judge. This isn't trivial. It takes discipline.

The message for kids is one of self determination --and empathy for someone that chooses a life of hardship fighting biology. I don't see this person as any kind of hero because it's a selfish motive, reserved for someone that probably has too much time on their hands, not altruistic. Why it's national news is puzzling. Seeing the vanity fair cover is like drinking a beer and getting a cigarette butt in your mouth. Vanity Fair can do what they think will make $$. Won't get mine.

IMO, it diminishes the AA award. I'll never give it any credibility or attention just as I know now, the Nobel peace prize is meaningless. Too bad that these cultural ideals are being lost. Maybe kids are better off tossing most of what came before them. The adults have seriously trashed the place.

a reply to: The angel of light

1 - yes - the medal was won the medal as a man in the mens event - attampting to take it away is freeaking stupid

1a - they should not be allowed to compete in any future athetic event as a woman - but all times and records should be on the male leaderboard

2 - if catlyn jenner is hapy with the pics // cover article then yes - its fine

3 - depends on who the other short list nominees are , they deserve to be nominated weather theu deserve to win or not - depends on who else is nominated and why

4 - it shouldnt - but i fear it will - the law make no distinction between sexes in regard of culpability [ rightly so ]

5 - children will get over it - its the adults that get uptight

6

a - yes - you are not free if you cannot express yourelf freely

b - sometimes - people with gender identity issies are not magically immune to self immage issues

c - posibly - people with gender identity issies are not magically immune to mental heaklth issues

caveat to answer b and c : " self image " and mental health " are easy tags of demonisation to apply to people you disagree with

anything else ?

a reply to: [post=19416682]cavtrooper7[/post


Correct, the only reason we even know about this is because of the media attention. And the only reason this story can get media attention is because enough people will watch it. The issue isn't Bruce Jenner, it's what we value as a society.

a reply to: newWorldSamurai

as an aside I agree the gay ,transexual and liberal communities have been given a bum deal in society,but DON'T shove it down my throat.
Either learn to live WITH others and start a more polite campaign or we will nominally ignore them as nuts.

a reply to: The angel of light

Interesting you were able to start a thread with God and end it in vomiting...

Lets see how committed "HE" is after he gets rid of the meat and potatoes. All this attention over a man playing dress up. I am gonna use Snoop Doggs hashtag here..... #society

originally posted by: aboutface
a reply to: The angel of light

--- Why should people bother to pass judgments on something most of us simply do not understand? ...

We do pass judgement on people and things we don't understand all the time take Islam as a topical example.

I can't help thinking it's just a stunt - but then it's rather extreme for that. He, Bruce, liked women well enough to father six children and I assume that Caitlyn is a lesbian.

I have a little bit of trouble with the idea of not working with what you were given - though money changes that equation quite a bit - I still think it's better to accept and live.

a reply to: JIMC5499

My thoughts exactly.

a reply to: Ultralight

Dear Ultralight,

Ha ha, you have a fine sense of perception and analysis. Believe me, I am doing my best effort to remain neutral and pretend that this is just another thread as many others. Any comprehension from your side is highly appreciated.

Now, one thing is interesting for me, to define clearly, and possibly is good to mention it:

I don't feel this is just a personal decision or option, it does not affect just the life of a man or woman, this is an issue that affects the entire society as whole and so has crucial ethical implications that soon or later will affect all our lives for good of for bad. I'm concerned here not only of the adults, but also of the children that are growing with this, so it would interesting to know the opinion of Psychologists and educators on this.

Thanks for your attention,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: AshOnMyTomatoes

I understood that she has breast of a woman thru surgery but did not have genital reconstructive surgery. I could be wrong as I don't follow the story...

a reply to: The angel of light

I was so impressed I had to speak out!

Blessings.

a reply to: The angel of light

I'd rather just not talk about it anymore. The fact is she decided to go through with it, it happened, it's great but it's over with, let's all move on. Plenty of other transgenders go through this every year and don't get national media attention for doing it. At this point, I'd say that we are more feeding into Caitlyn's ego or the media outlets' coin purses for clicking on article after article about it more than expressing support for a celebrity deciding to go through with a sex change.

PS. TBH I feel the least amount of excitement about a celebrity getting a sex change than anyone else. A celebrity has access to money and the support processes that good money can buy to have an easy transition. Plus the appeal to the liberal media to be the poster "girl" for transgenderism probably helps cull some of the blowback as well.

I feel more for the unnamed heroes who go through with it without any support, little money, and communities that look down on them because they can't afford to live elsewhere. Those are the transgenders that need our attention. I'm proud of Caitlyn for what she did, but she needs to step aside and bring exposure to others if she REALLY wants to bring light to transgender plights. Many transgenders think she had it too easy with the transition and her experiences aren't indicative of the normal experiences.

a reply to: Ultralight

Well dear Ultralight, that is another reason to open the thread, to give the people the opportunity to express their feelings openly, after all this is still a free country, but obviously respecting the boundaries that the new culture of sexual civil rights are giving to us.

As a fan of meditation I believe a lot in the power of to talk as a way of catharsis, it is a great valve to release the internal pressure that stress can cause.

This gives me material for another question:

8) Is the Diversity culture around the world creating a new kind of social stress over the individual? How about the pressure over the young people to define not only sexual roles but now also sexual identities as soon as possible?

When I was a child the classic question was what do you want to be when you are Older?

www.youtube.com...

I am now concerned of what a child of today or the following years can answer to that question.

this rides me to another crucial questions:

9) Is the human being sexual or is it sex just an attribute of the person, it is given or a choice? is it correct to classify people as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual or that is a classification of just their choices?

10) How about gender?, because it is clear that not only sexual preferences are variable right now, even gender is also variable. is it correct to classify the people for the gender they are identify with or the natural one? what is masculine-gender, feminine-gender and trans-gender?

11) Can a person like Michael Jackson in the future be considered as the first transracial of the History? Do you follow this? what is the limit of the momentum of the culture of personal preferences in to arrange or disarrange our society? are you enthusiastic or scared with the Pandora box that we are opening?

12) In the middle of all these variable factors that the society of future will offer to a person, to tie his or her life in his or her best comfort or will, I am wondering where exactly would be located the concept of personal identity? what would be what we call "I" when we refer to us? is that horizon riding us to an era of deep psychological instability or not?

I know the thread can appear as banal or lack of importance for many but after all we are seeing the image of Catlyn Jenner in all the corners in the down town of the cities of this country where Vanity fair magazines are right now in sale, so his or her decision is no longer a personal decision but a public domain situation.

Many of those magazines are also in the sight of children that by the way I think are not even prepared to understand what is going on here, but more over there are adolescents that are still in process of identification that could even have access to it.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness