The Other Side of the Spectrum; Why Businesses Should Discriminate - The Waco Shootings

Everyone on this forum says that if you are in business you loose the ability to refuse service to whomever you feel you need to refuse service to - which agrees with the laws of this nation - and something business owners feel they should have the right to do at their discretion.

IN recent news: the police are blaming the restaurant in Waco as being partly responsible - or saying they could have done more to prevent the shootings from happening. (For the backstory see Opthas thread in the breaking news forum)

Waco pd frustrated. "A lot of innocent people could've been hurt today... There may have been more that could've been done by a business"

Twitter: Grant Hermes TV



As reported by local Journalists who spoke with police:

Sgt. Patrick Swanson of the Waco Police Department told reporter Gabriel Roxas, “We feel like that they [Twin Peaks] did not take our advice and try to keep the bike groups from being here; they absolutely have a right to refuse service to people that may be a harm to their patrons and employees.”

Swanson reiterated, “They didn’t do that, and today is the ultimate aftermath of what their decision was.”

link

Here is the thing.. A Business does not have the luxury of refusing service to a Mexican based on style of dress - it would be discriminatory.

Also, if people are not causing trouble, just coming in and eating... then you cannot say, I refuse to serve you because I think you may someday cause trouble. No, the right to refuse extends to those causing a rukus at the present time, not just possibles at some future date without risking being sued right out of business.

People who you are allowed to refuse are:

Patrons who are unreasonably rowdy or causing trouble

Legal Match article

If the potential patrons are not rowdy, and you are refusing to serve them you can and WILL be sued - most ESPECIALLY if those potential patrons are also minorities in this country..

And herein lies the reason why a business should be allowed to refuse service in this country, even if it means someday you will hear the word no said to you in relation to service. Because quite frankly, there are very legitimate reasons to refuse service, and the law never sees those shades of grey.

As far as Waco PD goes, when they are willing to pay all court costs in discrimination suits, then and only then can they blame businesses for not taking their advice. That in and of itself pisses me off that they would blame the business itself for serving these people - which they have to do by law.

What I read today said that the business was fine with the bikers having their meeting in the business. They alerted the cops and there were extra cops stationed in the parking lot outside the business.

If the business wanted to do that, I'm fine with it. What I do not agree with is that the business was kept open for OTHER customers while this meeting was going on. There were families and others inside eating while the enemy-bikers were armed and meeting inside. That was irresponsible. The business should have closed to all others while the 150-200 bikers were on the property.

Business owners are private citizens too, they aren't some special class that is without civil rights but has to respect the civil liberties of everyone else

edit: I would laugh and I'm sure the judge would laugh if some social justice biker gang member filed a lawsuit against my burger shack because I told him to keep on keepin on

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Everyone on this forum says that if you are in business you loose the ability to refuse service to whomever you feel you need to refuse service to - which agrees with the laws of this nation - and something business owners feel they should have the right to do at their discretion.

Not quite the same thing IMO.

If I refuse to cater to a known, violent biker gang, that's a bit different than refusing to serve people based on something like skin color, or sexual orientation.

There's an actual danger to my business and my other patrons. There's a really good reason to deny services to criminal organizations of any kind.

I read this morning as well that the owners of the business are NOT cooperating with authorities, contrary to what the owners are saying. I would imagine it's likely they have some sort of arrangement with them.

~Tenth

a reply to: FlyersFan

What I am reading is that there were not that many bikers there. There were some, but many came after the fighting started, at least according to many twitter feeds..

It sounds like initially there were less than 50 in the business..

As far as being fine with it.. you don't have a choice but to be fine with people coming into your establishment in this country...

The restaurant being fine with them being there, came from the police, not from the restaurant management, and was said in criticism..as if the restaurant had any choice in the matter - or the cops were going to pay for all those discrimination suits.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
I read this morning as well that the owners of the business are NOT cooperating with authorities, contrary to what the owners are saying. I would imagine it's likely they have some sort of arrangement with them.

Last time something like that happened down there ... a bunch'o'people got set on fire.

This time it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch. I wonder if anyone down there still has the stones?

a reply to: OpinionatedB

What world do you live in ?

You refuse service to biker gang and they will shoot you or light your business into flames.

Cops will give you no support until you are dead or beaten or your property burned.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Here is the thing, they are known biker gangs yes.. but not known as being violent. How many times had they been in that restaurant before with no incident. Many.

This was a thing out of the ordinary, not a normal state of affairs in any case.

To have refused service to someone for being a biker, that is going out on the discrimination limb there... there are many motorcycle clubs in Texas, my brother was a member of one.. as a matter of fact, there were predominately only bikers at his funeral.. all upstanding members of their communities, they just happen to drive motorcycles and wear leather when they do.

My grandaughters grandfather is also a member of a motorcycle club in texas, and he is also a business owner and upstanding businessman on all accounts.

You really are getting into discrimination territory when you decide to refuse service to people just because they are bikers..

a reply to: OpinionatedB

You really are getting into discrimination territory when you decide to refuse service to people just because they are bikers..

Oh no, I would never suggest they refuse service based on just being Bikers.

I said known to be violent bikers with ties to organized crime.

Let me give you an example, in Canada we have the Hell's Angels. And they are an organized crime syndicate. Sure maybe there are some charters that don't act like that, but nevertheless, they are known as a violent group with ties to all kinds of seedy individuals.

Many places in Canada will refuse to host events for them based on that.

Not all forms of discrimination are unjust, when the right sort of circumstances present themselves. Very seldom does this apply mind you, but it can.

~Tenth

a reply to: OpinionatedB

What I mean by 'fine with it' is that the restaurant wanted them there. The news reports 150-200 bikers were in the restaurant and parking lot. The restaurant expected a big business night because of the meeting. They weren't trying to be rid of the bikers. They welcomed them.

Unfortunately, they also left the restaurant open for others to come in and eat. It should have been closed for a 'private meeting'. Restaurants do this all the time with big parties or big groups coming in. It would have been safer.

Cops were alerted ahead of time so that was good.
But the cops weren't prepared.

This event was handled in an amateurish way by both the restaurant and the cops. IMHO

a reply to: tothetenthpower

The laws in America don't specify "with possible ties to crime".. they only specify causing trouble at the time..

they restaurant could have been sued, especially considering that many they would have been refusing service to were also minorities in this country.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

They should host the next Arab/Israeli summit.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

The laws in America don't specify "with possible ties to crime".. they only specify causing trouble at the time..

they restaurant could have been sued, especially considering that many they would have been refusing service to were also minorities in this country.

Nope, they could not have.

There is established precedent in the US justice system for businesses to refuse serving people who are known to be violent or who pose a thread to clientele in general.

Discrimination only plays a part when it's something that doesn't actually effect the business or it's patrons.

ETA: Waco Police, just stated that 192 people are being charged with ties to organized crime.

twitter.com...

~Tenth

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
they restaurant could have been sued,

The restaurant should expect law suits from the OTHER patrons who were in the restaurant at the time of the biker meeting. If those people weren't informed ahead of time that FIVE RIVAL BIKER GANGS were having a meeting there, then those people were put in a dangerous position by the restaurant. And considering that those other patrons were families and there were children with them ... I'm thinking they were totally clueless about what was going to happen around them.

Those folks could easily have died.
They have potential lawsuits against the restaurant - IMHO.

a reply to: FlyersFan

It doesn't sound like a restaurant that takes reservations. People converge on restaurants - they go for their "red hat" meetings without asking first. They go for many occasions and don't talk to the restaurant first.

As I said before, all the reports I read stated that many of those who ended up at the restaurant, did so after the fighting began.

Here you are:

Central Texas Marketplace was closed entirely Sunday because of additional bikers coming to the scene, including the three arrested earlier.

lin k

a reply to: FlyersFan

Same link as above, a local Waco source:

The meeting between the two biker gangs was being monitored by police before the incident started, Swanton said, after officials became aware that the gangs were frequenting the establishment.

Apparently three more gangs showed up after the fact.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
It doesn't sound like a restaurant that takes reservations. People converge on restaurants - they go for their "red hat" meetings without asking first. They go for many occasions and don't talk to the restaurant first.

It looks like this meeting was arranged ahead of time and the police were involved with the preparations. The bikers and the restaurant and the cops were discussing this meeting for weeks.

INFO HERE

Swanton also said police have been trying to work with management at Twin Peaks for several weeks but have been thwarted in their efforts to avoid a situation like happened Sunday afternoon.

Reyna said local police were on heightened alert in anticipation of trouble on Thursday nights, when Twin Peaks hosts a Biker Night.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Yep .. the meeting was known ahead of time and the cops were able to set up monitoring. That means the restaurant knew the bikers were going to be there. The cops should have known that it could escalate and the restaurant should have warned the other patrons that rival biker gangs were meeting. The cops and the restaurant messed up.

150-200 showed up to the meeting and the fight.
The restaurant and the cops were not ready.
This is a serious anticipation mistake on their part.

a reply to: FlyersFan

This was Sunday, not thursday so it was not biker night...

As far as "thwarting" the efforts of police... tell me again, where in the anti-discrimination laws could this restaurant have refused service?

They cannot. Point blank. They could have been sued if they did.

And as I stated before.. there are plenty of bikers in texas so to have a "biker night" is probably a fairly normal thing, since being a biker in texas doesn't make you a criminal... or else they would be in jail. "Alleged" anything is just that without proof. Many people in texas that I personally know are members of biker clubs - who are not criminals.

Apparently the restaurant began working with police a few weeks back.. but the one thing they refused to do was to outright refuse service..

with the laws in this country being what they are... do you really think that a business should open themselves up to multiple lawsuits that have the potential to shut them down?

Seriously.. there ARE legitimate reasons to discriminate... there are reasons to say no we will not serve you.. that the law simply does not take into account, such as groups under investigation by ATF and the feds..

who were there.. and could have and should have prevented this... it started according to police, as a fight in the bathroom between two people... and the cops were right there... seriously..

a reply to: FlyersFan

not according to my source, which is a local waco source.