the Adam & Eve story as a metaphore of the emergence of civilization

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: gosseyn


The idea of metaphor comes up in the mind because its really hard to believe it was that simple. A snake and some fruit and we last paradise?

The snake whispers (words) in the ear about other than what there is and then the seeking starts.
When one seeks outside presence (believing that there is better) then one is cast out of wholeness - seeking in time for something different.
There is only what there is but the mind (thoughts/words) pretend there is more.
THIS that is will never be satisfying when there is an idea of other and then there will be a sense of lack.

a reply to: Involutionist

Why do you need to generalize so much ? The hunter-gatherer mentality as you call it is not in our genes, but the hunter-gatherer way of life is just the expression of our survival instinct. At that time, they were nomads hunting/gathering/fishing because they had no other choice, this was just how they adapted to their environment, how they survived. They couldn't accumulate resources because they didn't find a way to, there was no agriculture, they had to move from place to place to find resources and that made them nomads. With the advent of agriculture, all that changed, and they adapted to that new environment, they became sedentary because they stayed where the crops were and this gave them the possibility to accumulate resources(that led to division of labor, inequality, patriarchate, etc). So for me, what defines the hunter-gatherer way of life is nomadism and the impossibility to accumulate resources and both are linked. What is in our genes is the instinct of survival which forces us to adapt to the environment, and with agriculture we found a way to shape our environment to our advantage. The way you see it is like saying (silly example) : "anyone who looks at the sky is an astronomer, whether that person looks at birds or looks to see if there are arrows coming his way".

And I agree with the rest. We have arrived at a point in our evolution where we can see what civilization brought us, we can see the advantages but also the disadvantages that it brought and we have enough knowledge to correct civilization and to try to remove those disadvantages. We arrive at a point where 99% are poor and 1% are rich, extreme division of labor and over-specialization, economic wars that threaten to destroy us all, etc.. Those are all effects of that one day when a random guy found a way to raise crops. It is like in those departments, we haven't progressed, we still play by the same rules, and we have played the same game for so many millennia that we have come to believe that it is what we are and who we are.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Isn't knowledge the perfect representation of what is not here and not now ? Knowledge of things happening in another place and/or another time, knowledge which is not direct experience through one senses. It is true that anything that happen can only happen in the present, thus can only be experienced in the present; and a sense of connection and wholeness, a sense of satisfactory fullness is non-existent for someone who is not paying attention to the present. The past, the future, are only places in time where things are happening in the present, because only the present exists.

What you say is reminiscent of this thread www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: gosseyn

Isn't knowledge the perfect representation of what is not here and not now ? Knowledge of things happening in another place and/or another time, knowledge which is not direct experience through one senses. It is true that anything that happen can only happen in the present, thus can only be experienced in the present; and a sense of connection and wholeness, a sense of satisfactory fullness is non-existent for someone who is not paying attention to the present. The past, the future, are only places in time where things are happening in the present, because only the present exists.

Agreed. Thoughts that speak now and are heard now speak of 'someone' and that 'someone' (the illusory separate person/identified self) is just an image appearing in what you really are - the thoughts cannot ever speak about the real you because you are the space of now. The space of now (what you are) contains all that can be known - what can be known is constantly changing but you remain constant. Aware presence.
The dreamer is dreaming.

What you say is reminiscent of this thread www.abovetopsecret.com...

I very much enjoyed that thread.

I think you are on to something. But, there is another part of the bible that seems more applicable to the switch from hunter/gatherer to agriculture. The story of the tower of babel consists of the people building a tower (or "city", in Young's literal translation). God is all like wtf, and scrambles their language to make them disperse from the city, presumably because he knew what sort of horrors would result from a sedentary lifestyle.

discovermagazine.com...

We have lost touch with nature, and we have been paying for it ever since.

a reply to: gosseyn

Why do you need to generalize so much ?

Then you followed it up with this:

The hunter-gatherer mentality as you call it is not in our genes, but the hunter-gatherer way of life is just the expression of our survival instinct.

What is the synopsis of this thread?

What are you getting at...?

originally posted by: bb23108

And yes, these body-minds are DOING this destruction, and we all need to take responsibility for this. I cannot relate to a mental abstraction from life to justify no action, as you seem to advocate with your statements that no one is doing anything. Body-minds are DOING many things!

No one is doing anything. There is no one. There is just what is happening. The movie that is appearing is just a movie and all is being done - there is no one in control of the movie. Apparent bodies in the movie move but you are not doing any of the moving - you are the still silent witness that never appears.

Once upon a time there was no oxygen on this planet and when an oxygen producing plant arose it wiped out many species but without it there would be no humans. Maybe one day there will be no oxygen again but there will be some other substance that will allow some other creature to arise. What is happening is not a mistake - it is all working beautifully. For all we know humans are here to blow up the earth to produce such a large explosion which causes a new solar system to be born, which may contain a planet that will eventually have creatures similar to humans on it. How could the mind ever know anything about anything?
The mind is concerned with not being, with not existing - it seeks to ensure it's survival, it fears annihilation.
But what is happening is being all there is - always.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
No one is doing anything. There is no one.

Good Lord, you just won't stop no matter how many times I explain what I am doing.

So no body-minds are doing anything now? Okay, then this body-mind will stop writing your body-mind about this now.

Oh wait, there is no body-mind there that is even going to read this since no one is doing anything! So all the more reason for this body-mind to stop with these silly semantic games.

No wonder this body-mind never got the salt I asked your body-mind to pass me a few days ago!

The Adam and Eve story is a fictional representation of the moment that mankind became truly self-aware as a species. Unlike all other animals, human beings have the mental capacity to understand that we are alive in the context of this particular reality, and will someday deteriorate and die as a result of the passage of time and the inevitable death of all living things.

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
No one is doing anything. There is no one.

Good Lord, you just won't stop no matter how many times I explain what I am doing.

What are you doing? Please explain clearly because I really do not know what you are doing.

So no body-minds are doing anything now?

Sounds are happening, fingers are moving, words are appearing on the screen - everything is simply just happening. Do you believe that there is a you that is in control of what is arising?
Or, is what is arising and changing and passing just arising, changing and passing?

a reply to: gosseyn

Yahweh is the Ego of the Son of God. Satan is said to be the accuser, or conscience of mankind. Adam was created in Genesis 1, but formed by the Son of God in Genesis 2. Genesis 1 was the metaphor for the design of the human archetype. Genesis 2 is the planting of the created / designed seeds into gardens. Earth is a garden that was planted. The spark of self realization engages the desire to overcome the conscience. Ego is the ruler of an individual. If you know this about Yahweh (Ego) and the Satan he made (Conscience), then you realize what this implies for you as a copy. All that applies to the Son of God applies to us as an image. The characters in the Bible are then references to each of us individually.

The Upanishads of the Hindus explain this in detail. You can't know what the Lord of the Old Testament is until you know what the Lord of the Hindus represents. Know thyself is the key to knowing the metaphor of the Bible. All religious texts are outlining the mysteries of the Son of God. By this, you know yourself.

The origin of man is mirrored in the Hindu Mahabharata. An excellent movie by Peter Brooks was made of this Hindu poem. The Jews originate with the Hindu Philosophers, so both traditions reflect the same truth. You can find the entire 4 hour movie online.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
What are you doing? Please explain clearly because I really do not know what you are doing.

What you need to understand is that body-minds do things, and are responsible for their doings. Is your body-mind not responsible for what it does - or in your language, its movements?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
Sounds are happening, fingers are moving, words are appearing on the screen - everything is simply just happening. Do you believe that there is a you that is in control of what is arising?
Or, is what is arising and changing and passing just arising, changing and passing?

As I have said innumerable times to you, yes, I understand that ultimately we are conscious light, the Witness that is not separate from any arising. However, body-minds are doing things and we are apparently associated with said body-minds. And really, until there are actual signs of whole bodily transformation in, as, and by such Conscious Light, these are just lofty ideas that are spoken of often, and usually without the signs of real whole-bodily transformation.

For the sake of convenience, and also because of the way our language is structured around the "I" and "other" principles, this is how I choose to communicate.

Just like you just asked "Do you believe..." Rather than my saying to you, who is this "you" you are referring to, I understand what you mean. Please provide me the same courtesy and quit asking me the same semantic-based questions. If you want to consider this via u2u, just write me exactly what you want to ask, and I will be happy to answer you, as I have in the past. But this has nothing to do with this thread plus I have answered this same question of yours many times.

originally posted by: gosseyn
Have you ever heard of this theory which says that the story of adam & eve and the fruit of knowledge and the lost eden etc, is actually a myth to symbolize the passage from hunter-gatherer style of life to civilized, agricultural, religious style of life in cities ? If yes, please tell me where you have read/heard it.

..

I recall that the Adam-Eve story--and expulsion from the garden was the change from the worldwide goddess worship( & Matriarch rule) to a male god and (Patriarch rule/authority)...it was the great Paradigm Shift in human consciousness

although I seem to recall reading that A&E might have been when the hunter-gatherer tribes became farmers and crop growers and settled farmland instead of migrating with nature, food supplies...but back in the mid-late 50's we were told the ice age was going to return in 50 years, so there were many wild theories being given the masses, sci-fi was pretty much everywhere~ & the Popular Science magazine gave us future trends every month

originally posted by: bb23108

What you need to understand is that body-minds do things, and are responsible for their doings.

Are the clouds responsible for the way they appear and what they do?
That which is appearing is just appearing how it does.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
Are the clouds responsible for the way they appear and what they do?
That which is appearing is just appearing how it does.

You comparing your body-mind to clouds speaks volumes.

Once again, from an absolute standpoint, Reality is the mere and non-separate Witness of all arising, so ultimately everything is an unnecessary appearance. But I cannot assume that this is your actual absolute Realization because you never speak of Love and all the yogic transformations that the body-mind invariably becomes with such Realization.

No praise or blame for this - it is extremely rare. But to only speak from an absolute standpoint like you always try to do, seems contrived to me and not very communicative - and extremely repetitive.

I understand you have an insight into non-dualism, but like so many of those youtube presentations you post, it just seems to be confined to the perceptual mind - and never of or from the feeling heart. Consciousness is beyond mind - it also infinite feeling, love. And no, this is not my actual absolute Realization either, but there is a tacit, direct recognition and understanding that Reality is beyond mere mental perception of everything as just what is apparently "happening".

Reality is living Divine indivisible unconditional Consciousness-Light, the "medium" that all appearances are unnecessary, non-separate modifications of.

originally posted by: bb23108
You comparing your body-mind to clouds speaks volumes.

It is not 'my' body and the thoughts that appear do not belong to me either!!
All that appears is just happening.

a reply to: Itisnowagain
Ultimately, but is this your absolute realization or are you just mentally convinced of this? Where is unconditional love and heart-feeling in the midst of all of this?

Adam and Eve went for conditional love and thus were thrown out of the Garden.*

* My (perhaps lame) attempt to keep this conversation on topic!

a reply to: bb23108
Check your inbox - I have sent a pm.

a reply to: Itisnowagain
Got it and just responded. Thanks.

Fortunately our thread host was gracious enough to allow our dialog - as it was going to get trickier trying to keep it on topic!

Your theory sounds very plausible. I also strongly believe that Noah's flood was the terrastorm that destroyed Atlantis.