Roswell Slides solved. But Jaime Maussan...

a reply to: The angel of light

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble following your train of thought. Perhaps you can organize them more clearly and tone down the bolded paragraphs and all caps?

Nevertheless, the evidence speaks mostly for itself. We have determined from the deblurring that the mummy in the slides was owned by "S.L. Palmer." That's where the search for "S.L. Palmer" comes in and the article about Mesa Verde and the mummy as well. Existing photographs of the museum interior at Mesa Verde show similar glass panel shelving as well as an identical placard style for their exhibits. The Mesa Verde museum even replied to inquiries about the mummy and stated that all such mummies were repatriated and returned to rest at their burial sites in the 1990s.

So short of grave robbing, unless you can find another photograph of the mummy between the '90s when it was reburied and the time it was given to the Mesa Verde museum by S.L. Palmer, any new photographs are impossible. You almost mirror Jaime Maussan who actually seems to be condoning grave robbery by offering rewards for the body.

a reply to: Kojiro

Dear Kojiro,

Do you really believe that a museum of such reputation was going to return the remains to the native Americans without keeping any photographic record of what they had or what they returned? no photos at all?

It is no needed to find a photo of today of that mummy, just only to provide much recent ones than the 1947 slide one, if we believe that is what Mrs Hilda Ray Blair decided to preserve in that image, or a different set of images that were never in possession of Mr and Mr Ray.

Any other image taken of that mummy is valid to receive the reward, after all part of the confusion that it seems have occurred here is that Kodakchrome laboratories certified that the slides were probably taken in 1947, the same year of the Roswell incident. Maussan was not the only one misleaded for that, also all the dream team were fooled by such information before him.

We know that by sure the museum still had it in that year, so Do you also think that Texan couple were the only ones to take photos of that mummy in all its time in that museum?

Please with all respect don't be so naïve , that is to much to be believed, really unlikely, anybody could get photos in that museum if we accept is that mummy the one depicted on the slide. Think on this: if there was an official return of remains from the museum to the native Americans even the press of the epoch possibly took photos of the event, any journalist in that area could have those pictures.

I am so sorry, but whoever has told you that tale please say to that person that I have had a close relationship with archaeology museums and I know what are the protocols used to receive or to return items that are historic or cultural patrimony, nobody is going to fool me with such excuse.

if you remain still intrigued of what I am saying please go to my own thread where there is more to read.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

I posted this earlier today on Angel Of Light's thread here at ATS. I think it belongs here as well -

The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) is a United States federal law enacted on 16 November 1990.

The Act requires federal agencies and institutions that receive federal funding to return Native American "cultural items" to lineal descendants and culturally affiliated Indian tribes and Native Hawaiian organizations. Cultural items include human remains, funerary objects, sacred objects, and objects of cultural patrimony. A program of federal grants assists in the repatriation process and the Secretary of the Interior may assess civil penalties on museums that fail to comply.

NAGPRA also establishes procedures for the inadvertent discovery or planned excavation of Native American cultural items on federal or tribal lands. While these provisions do not apply to discoveries or excavations on private or state lands, the collection provisions of the Act does apply to Native American cultural items if they come under the control of an institution that receives federal funding. Since this native American child was under the control of the United States National Park service at its Mesa Verde Museum, this child is covered by NAGPRA.

Lastly, NAGPRA makes it a criminal offense to traffic in Native American human remains without right of possession or in Native American cultural items obtained in violation of the Act. Penalties for a first offense may reach 12 months imprisonment and a $100,000 fine.

Therefor, Maussan is treading on dangerous legal ground by publicly offering a $10,000 reward for the body of the mummified Native American child.

The intent of the NAGPRA legislation is to address long-standing claims by federally recognized tribes for the return of human remains and cultural objects unlawfully obtained from prehistoric, historic, former, and current Native American homelands.

As the research has shown, the mummified Native American child was originally removed from an archaeological dig site. The body subsequently was turned over some years later to a National Parks museum - Mesa Verde. NAGPRA compelled the National Park Service to return said child back to Native Americans. In this case, the specific Native American tribe being the Pueblos.

Most presumably, this child was buried in the ground in 1990 on Pueblo land in the western United States, by the Pueblos.

Collections holders are obliged to inform and engage with tribes whose materials, including human remains, they may possess. NAGPRA was enacted primarily at the insistence and by the direction of members of Native American nations.

It has long been the time to let this deceased Native American boy rest in peace in the land of his descendants.

a reply to: LiteraryJourney

With all respect Dear Litgerary Journey,

I have already responded your so interesting reply also in my thread:

Now, with such a Law that you have mentioned it is absolutely impossible that any museum that had the mummy sometime ago would have returned it to the native American, lets say the Pueblo or any other group, without having certified the devolution with an official document that of course must includes photos.

That photographic material necessarily must be more recent than the slide of the Ray Marriage, so possibly taken long after 1947, and it will be good enough to earn the 5000 or even the 10000 dollars of the reward, according with the own words published of Mr Maussan and his associates in his website.

There is nothing criminal or illegal what so ever into request and obtain a certified copy of that document and pictures from the archives of the respective museum, as well it is not a crime if somebody find and obtain through formal procedures certified copies of the photos taken by the press of that epoch that possibly was invited to report the act of devolution. This may be is in the Newspaper Archives of the region, in other article published years after the one that Mr Bragaglia has disclosed as a supposed proof of the misidentification.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

At no point did I say that no other photographs existed. I said you'd have to find them, as it's (legally) impossible to create new ones. Perhaps the Mesa Verde Museum does have photographs on record. Someone will have to check. So what? If someone was able to get a hold of those records and trotted them out, would that satisfy the issue? Or would you continue to mirror Maussan and demand the physical remains itself?

I highly doubt Maussan was "fooled" or an "innocent" as his previous history with showcasing hoaxes has demonstrated. He's just another Barnum.

It's been pretty much put to rest that it was a mummy shown in those slides, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to prove by your protests unless you actually want the mummy to be a real alien body.

This individual has always been questionable. Years ago a documentary exposed one of his” finds” a guy who would see UFOS practically everyday. Mufon exposed the fraud.

He of course stuck by his man in the light of scientific evidence that the guy was lying.


I would have never believed this guy

It seems a lot of bad stuff has come from him

a reply to: LiteraryJourney

Religion, spirituality, science, popular politics all have been infected with the profit motive what makes you think UFOlogy would be any different in the hands of human nature

a reply to: Kojiro

Dear Kojiro,

I just want to know all the truth, only the truth and nothing more than the truth, concerning this so embarrassing episode of the History of Ufology.

I think anyway if Maussan or any other of the dream team is charged for this adventure they were going to have the presumption of innocence and that is something guaranteed in any country under the rule of Law. So please cease to try to demonize me.

I am certainly astonished of the magnitude of all this fiasco but what surprise me is not the issue itself, but how far it went , why it was not stopped in 2009 when Adam Dew first time reported publically the slides?

How is possible that a man appears with such a material, doing such claims , around what could be the evidence of the must intriguing incident of the UFO sightings of modernity and also possibly of a conspiracy and he could continue offering his photographic materials along 6 years to finally bring them to Mexico city?

Who was protecting him? what immunity he has in the States that allow him to escape all that time to be investigated by FBI or even arrested as scammer in Arizona? This guy offered the same material he gave to Maussan to many other potential buyers or media and he was interviewed many times to talk about them.

It seems only the police and the authorities didn't know where to find him, quite ironic because everybody else in the Journalism was able to reach him.

Please understand that this scandal was far beyond the capability of Maussan to manufacture hoaxes, he was just the last vehicle of the operation, the last link of a very long sequence of events that remain hidden.

Who is the real owner of these slides??,

because there is media that suggest that Adam Dew is just an intermediary, how they came from Midland Texas to Arizona? there is one entire state in the middle of the road, and how this came to the hands of Dew? if the Ray marriage didn't have children who other relative or family friend was in possession of this, because it is clear that Dew is so much young to be that person.

Why Anthony Bragaglia wrote a so compromising article describing them:

Posted in February 1st 2015 in the site that is mentioned below, as an article signed by Bragaglia himself:

This author made the discovery that the husband, Bernerd A. Ray, was an Oil Exploration Geologist working the fields in New Mexico and the Permian Basin (which includes the Roswell region) in the 1940s for a company that would later become part of Texaco. In 1947 he was the President of the Texas chapter of the American Institute of Petroleum Geologists, which also at that time ‘folded in’ the State of New Mexico. After 1947, Bernerd became a ‘ghost’ in his profession and did not publish nor appear to be active with the Institute ever again.

Bernerd’s wife was Hilda Blair Ray. Researchers Tom Carey and Don Schmitt and the current owner of the film learned that Hilda was a highly respected lawyer with a high-end clientele and possible intelligence connections. A private pilot, she maintained favorable relations with well-placed individuals in both the public and private sectors during the 1940s. The other slides in the chest (over 100) are often found depicting accomplished people, including Dwight Eisenhower. This is a couple who were of the highest integrity. And both had contacts and activities that could have fortuitously enabled them to obtain these slides. And neither would have been the type to hide away hoaxed images as part of some sick prank, only to have those images found decades later by happenstance. This busy professional couple was also philanthropic with no propensity to prank.

WHY THE SLIDES ARE GENUINE

Professionals from a range of disciplines who have seen the slides agree that they depict a small humanoid creature –a formerly living thing- that is not a prop nor a genetically defective human [Blogger's note: Of all the UFO researchers involved here, Carey is the most qualified to make judgements...

He has a background in Anthropology and completed the course work for a Ph.D, but didn't complete a dissertation]. And importantly, the being that is shown in the slides does not correlate whatsoever to the depictions of aliens extant in the popular culture of the 1940s (such as those that appeared in pulp magazines like Amazing Stories or movies like Buck Rogers) What the slides depict were not even part of the public psyche of that time.

This is not how people envisioned things from outer space to look like back then. Instead, these 1947 slides reveal a being that looks like the beings found in the desert in 1947 as described by the witnesses to Roswell.

kevinrandle.blogspot.com...

This was not written by Jaime Maussan or by any of his employees, it was written by the same man that now is also making us believe in the story of a Museum that does not have photographic catalogues of what it has had in its possession, a museum that also does not follow the minimally accepted protocols to handle archaeological items, even that is lacking of a good inventory with pictures.

It was lying Mr Bragaglia in a so elegant way when he was advertising the slides then, when he wrote this so nice introduction to the slides?

What makes you think that he is now saying us the truth, or just looking for another story to sell and that also exonerate him of responsibilities?

He was clearly traveling in the boat of the Roswell slides until it started to sink, now he pretend to be the hero of to uncover the hoax, what sense of ethics and Loyalty this person has?


This is the kind of misinformation that possibly attracted the attention of the people that paid the entries to the National Auditorium, or paid the fee to follow the event in stream, and also became informed of the existence of the dream team.

Braggaglia has just washed his hands in this problem, he knows that he is sunk until his neck in this issue, his way to support others is such a mess to later move out the first by apologizing with a mummy, that now only God knows where it is , and not with his many readers, friends and former associates is disgusting.

How convenient is that the only piece of solid evidence either in the original issue and in the supposed way to debunk it is absolutely unreachable, linked with an institution that never decided to take a photo of such a magnificent and well preserved mummy in possibly a century that was part of their collections.??

Notice that he recognizes in the article that he was one of the researchers that tracked the career of Bernard Ray , the background of the original owner. I have not read in other profile posted in the web so many convincing information of The Texan other than in this article, in which A. Bragaglia says he disovered that Mr. B. Ray was working in Geology for a company that later became part of TEXACO.

Bragaglia profile on Bernard Ray is the only reference I have found in all the web or in anything published that links this Geologist with Roswell. Even Adam Dew himself was more cautious to never assure there was a proved link with Roswell. Bragaglia ends his article saying why the people must think that they are genuine!.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

Um... I don't know how you came upon your information, but Bragaglia is not the source of the detail about the Mesa Verde Museum. He might be quoting that now, I don't know, as I really haven't looked at his site, but he didn't originate it. The Mesa Verde Museum story I'm absolutely positive came from here at ATS, as I watched it unfold with Isaac Koi and others search for information on one S.L. Palmer and his mummy.

You... seem to be missing a few details that can be found by just reading the relevant threads here.