Pre-Mohammed Religious Associations?

I've been looking around the web for an answer to this tonight and have come up with next to no answers.

What happened between Ishmael and Mohammed? Presumably, even though he was sent away with his mother, Ishmael would have followed the Jewish religious traditions and practices. "Islam" didn't exist (at least in name and written laws) until about 1,400 years ago, but there are, allegorically-speaking, 2,500+/- years between Ishmael and Mohammed. I guess an even more difficult way to word my question is "What religion was Mohammed born into?"

ETA: I am honestly only asking this for the purpose of educating myself, I'd prefer it not turn into a debate over the assumed time frame, whether Ishmael et al. existed, etc.

a reply to: burdman30ott6
You forget that the laws of Moses are post the time of Abraham, so Ishmael would not have been following them.
Nor can we assume that Ishmael's descendants necessarily held on to whatever his religion was.

The history of Mohammed's life tells us the kind of religion which was actually being practiced in his region when he was young.
That's a much better way of getting an answer to your question.
It was an environment which he later characterised as idolatrous, which is what his early wars were all about.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: burdman30ott6
You forget that the laws of Moses are post the time of Abraham, so Ishmael would not have been following them.

Yes, yes I did. Great point which I completely spaced on.

And I will read on the regional religions and practices a bit more.

a reply to: burdman30ott6
I don't know that he would have been 'born into' any religion. My understanding (which is admittedly limited) is that most of the region at the time had localized 'cults' and deities that they worshipped, rather than one or two sort of widespread, centralized religions. That's just my current understanding of it though, and I may well be mistaken.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Hope the info below helps to fill in a few gaps.

One of the major influences was Zoasterism www.britannica.com... which influenced judiasm, christianity and islam. Pantheonism is another which influenced the ancient world.www.pantheism.net...
The world was full of rich ideas before the desert religions forced their way into it. Hope those references help. Both religions are alive and existing in quiet corners still - I am tempted to say by miracle, but I don't believe in them.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

We don't know the religion of Hagar as she was Egpytian. It would be presumed that she would have followed the religion of Abraham, but the religion of Abraham was pre-Judaic and not clearly defined.

Hagar and Ishmael then settled close to Egypt and Ishmael's wife was Egyptian. The religions around that area in that time would have been Canaanite, Phoenician and Egyptian. We have no idea of what she believed as she was Sarah's servant, most likely when Abraham and Sarah went to Egypt.

Whether or not she was a free servant, she was called "hand maid" which is kind of like saying "lady in waiting" but we really don't know much about her except that part of the Bible.

Abraham had in his company Eliezer who was from Damascus. The brother of Sarah was not with them, he was still in Midian. Lot, the nephew of Abraham, went to Sodom.

I would presume she practiced a Khemetic religion.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Polytheistic, Muhammed was born into Hashemite clan of the Quraysh tribe. Qurayas tribe has been ruling Kaaba ( Kaaba important pagan pilgrimage site before Islam ) in Mecca for centuries. Allah was a god of Qurayas clan and head of all Gods. Allah also have 3 daughters, goddesses.
Islam has nothing to do with judaism or christianity, even it has borrowed some of the scriptures.

Ishmael left.. no record of his belief system but propably was raised jewish . One man moving out does not mean he will change religion of people he was surrounded.. It seems that pre Islam there were polytheismic more common than monotheism ( Even Allah has sub gods )

I read an article that addressed the history of Mohammad but I do not think it addressed your question. The article did state that there were Jewish traders in the area of Mohammad though so there was already a distinction between the two groups back then. I found this on a Muslim site. It does not say if the Jews of the time were actually practicing Judism though, it was addressing the people that are now Jewish.

The strange thing is that what Mohammad was trying to say is now twisted by some who claim to follow his ways. I suppose we hear more of the radical Muslims here though, maybe a lot of them do follow his ways of trying to maintain peace between the nations.

a reply to: burdman30ott6


Just wanted to drop this off for those wanting to get a better understanding of religious context from the area . I may not answer directly your question but should give a better picture of the ancients thought's at the time prior to Abraham . Its a pdf "On the Origin of Watchers:A Comparative Study of the AntediluvianWisdom in Mesopotamian and JewishTraditions"
*

"n the article, it is argued that the origin of Watchers derives from the Mesopotamian
mythology of the antediluvian sages (
apkallu
s). More precisely, it is proposed that themythology of Watchers and their sons the giants derived from inverted versions of various Mesopotamian myths and beliefs about
apkallu
s. On some layers of Meso- potamian mythology and ritual practices, the sages were already regarded as danger-ous and potentially malicious creatures, upon which the Jewish authors could buildtheir parody. Among other associations, the
apkallu
s had strong ties to Mesopotamiandemonology, and they were occasionally counted as evil beings, capable of witch-craft. This shows that the wickedness of antediluvian teachers of humankind in Jewishsources was not wholly an inversion of the Mesopotamian traditions by Jewish schol-ars, but was partly taken from already existing trends in Mesopotamian demonology " www.scribd.com...

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
I've been looking around the web for an answer to this tonight and have come up with next to no answers.

What happened between Ishmael and Mohammed? Presumably, even though he was sent away with his mother, Ishmael would have followed the Jewish religious traditions and practices. "Islam" didn't exist (at least in name and written laws) until about 1,400 years ago, but there are, allegorically-speaking, 2,500+/- years between Ishmael and Mohammed. I guess an even more difficult way to word my question is "What religion was Mohammed born into?"

ETA: I am honestly only asking this for the purpose of educating myself, I'd prefer it not turn into a debate over the assumed time frame, whether Ishmael et al. existed, etc.

I doubt the he really existed, at least as we think of him. But I've done some looking into the preislam beliefs of the area, which is probubally what your looking for.


Pre Islam "Arabs" believed in a pantheon of gods barely resembling the Greeks and Romans. Allah was what the pre Islam over god was called. Which they kept after Mohammad converted the area to Islam. There society had hundreds of gods representing every imaginable domaine, but had no real set in stone orthodoxy. This is also where genies come from. With them believing in earth, fire and water spirits as well.

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Polytheistic, Muhammed was born into Hashemite clan of the Quraysh tribe. Qurayas tribe has been ruling Kaaba ( Kaaba important pagan pilgrimage site before Islam ) in Mecca for centuries. Allah was a god of Qurayas clan and head of all Gods. Allah also have 3 daughters, goddesses.
Islam has nothing to do with judaism or christianity, even it has borrowed some of the scriptures.

Ishmael left.. no record of his belief system but propably was raised jewish . One man moving out does not mean he will change religion of people he was surrounded.. It seems that pre Islam there were polytheismic more common than monotheism ( Even Allah has sub gods )

I disagree, Islam is pretty obviously a combination of Christianity, Judaism and the pre Islam pantheon that was previously worshipped.

To sum up (I hope I got the meaning of your question) it was jealousy from the mother Sarah . Isaac had to be the one in her eyes to inherit Father Abraham's legacy . Thus the trick and the split. Also , it was Sarah that cast out Ishmael and his mother afterwards as she did not want a trace of anything that could contest Isaac's inheritance around. Thus began the Islamic faith. The land where the angels came down and told them God had given to Ishmael to establish a nation became the Nation of Islam

a reply to: burdman30ott6

When Almighty Allah sent His last and greatest Prophet, Muhammad sallallaaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, , humankind was immersed in a state of degeneration. The messages of the past prophets had been distorted and ignored, civilization was on the decline and humanity had slumped into an age of darkness, with disbelief, oppression and corruption prevalent everywhere. The condition of the world at that time presented the gloomiest picture ever of human history.

At the time of the birth of Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), there existed two great powers on earth: one in the East and another in the West. In the East there was the Persian Empire, and in the West, the Roman Empire. As it might be expected, these two powers were actively hostile and almost permanently at war with one another. As a result, they were weak and disunited, though appearing to be otherwise. Despite their disunity and weakness, they made no serious effort to eradicate the causes of their instability.

The Arabs were living under no better conditions. They were families and tribes comprising different attitudes and feelings; but they were all similar in one respect: they were slaves of habits and impulses. They used to take pride in invasion and plunder. Moreover, they were so low in their moral affairs that a number of them used to bury their daughters alive.

Religiously speaking, the Arabs of that era were mostly idol worshippers. Some of them used to make their own gods from sweets, and subsequently, they would eat them when they got hungry. They had replaced the monotheism of Ibraaheem (Abraham) may Allaah exalt his mention with the worship of idols, stars and demons, turning the Ka'bah, which was built for the One and Only Creator, into a pantheon of idols. In addition, tribal rivalries and blood feuds ran among them like the burning desert sands of Arabia.

The people of Makkah used to practice usury on a large scale with very high interest rates -- sometimes a hundred percent. When the debtors were not able to repay -- and that was most often the case -- they were enslaved or obliged to force their wives and daughters to commit certain sins, in order to be able to collect enough money to repay the debt.
Ignorance was not confined to the Arabs alone. On the fringes of Arabia where the desert gives way to hospitable lands, met the ever-changing borders of 'world arrogance', the two superpowers of the age: the Persian and the Roman Empires.

The fire-worshipping Persians, with their strange concept of dualism were further plagued by the still weirder Mazdakite doctrine (i.e. a socio-religious movement that flared up in the Sasanian Kavad (488-531 CE) founded by Mazdak son of Bamdad), that advocated communal ownership and even ruled that women were the common property of all men. Like Mani a few centuries earlier, who had claimed a new religion by combining the teachings of Jesus may Allaah exalt his mention and Zoroaster, Mazdakite's movement was also a reaction to the corruption of the traditional priestly class. Both creeds died away after the execution of their proponents, who more or less depended on royal patronage. On the other hand, the Sasanian aristocracy aligned with the Zoroastrian clergy was steeped in pleasures, burdening the oppressed masses with heavy taxes and oppression.

At the other end was the Byzantine world, which though claiming to profess a divinely revealed religion, had in fact polluted the monotheist message of Prophet Jesus may Allaah exalt his mention with the sediments of ancient Greek and Roman pagan thoughts, resulting in the birth of Christianity. In 381 CE, the Greco-Roman Church council rejected the doctrine of Arius of Alexandria, to which most of the eastern provinces of the empire adhered, and in its place the council had coined the belief that God and Jesus may Allaah exalt his mention are of one substance and therefore co-existent. Arius and his followers had held the belief in the uniqueness and majesty of God, Who Alone, they said has existed since eternity, while Jesus may Allaah exalt his mention was created in time.

There were colonies of Jews scattered across West Asia and North Africa to whom several Messengers had been sent by Almighty Allaah. However, even these divine favors had failed to reform them. The laws sent to Prophet Moses may Allaah exalt his mention had been distorted and tampered with.

Further to the east lay the once flourishing cultures of China and India which were groping in darkness. Confucianism had confused the Chinese, robbing their minds of any positive thinking. On the other hand, Hinduism had no universal pretensions whatsoever, and was peculiar to the geographical confines of India or more properly Northern India and its Aryan invaders. Conversion of foreigners was difficult because one had to be born in a particular caste and it was the mystery of 'Karma' that determined one's fate.

In short, wars, bloodshed, slavery, oppression of women and the deprived held sway everywhere, might ruled over right. The world was in dire distress but no one seemed capable of delivering it from darkness. No religion, ideology, creed or cult during those times, could offer any hope to the agonies and frustrations of humankind.

None of the religions in currency had any universal outlook or even pretensions and were limited to insurmountable geographical and psychological barriers, preaching discrimination and the narrow-minded superiority of a particular race.

Thus, it was in such a chaotic state of depression that Almighty Allaah sent His last great Prophet, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) with the universal Message of Islam to save humankind from disbelief, oppression, corruption, ignorance and moral decadence that was dragging humanity towards self-annihilation.

www.islamweb.net...

a reply to: ElectricFeel

Wrong, there was the BYZANTINE Roman Empire, also known as Eastern Orthodox.

Why is it that people don't know these things?

a reply to: burdman30ott6

The Mystery Babylon Religion happened (Baal Hubal and the Babylonian Talmud teachings).

answering-islam.org...

Quranic concepts taken from the Talmud

In the Arabian Peninsula there were many Jewish communities living in the diaspora after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Many of these were guided by legends (Hagadda, etc.) and Talmudic writings, rather than the Torah.

Many Jews at the time believed that the Talmud had been added to the "preserved tablets" (i.e. to the Ten Commandments, which were kept in the Ark of the Covenant and were believed to be replicas of the heavenly book).

Mohammed added to this the Quran. There are several traditions from Judaism that were accepted by Mohammed and incorporated in Islam:

QIBLA i.e. the direction in which one faces while praying. At first, the direction was towards jerusalem, as was Jewish practice. When the Jews fell into disfavour with Mohammed, however, this was changed to Mecca. (Sura 2:142).

ABRAHAM Whatever Mohammed knew about Abraham is not from the Torah, but from Jewish legends, the source being the Midrash Rabbah (Suras 2:260; 6:74-84; 19:42-50; 21:52-72; 26:70-82; 29:16,17; 37:83-89; 43:26-30 and 60:4).

SATAN'S REFUSAL TO WORSHIP ADAM as reported in Sura 2:34 can also be traced back to the Talmud ("Islam" by A. Guillaume p. 62).

CAIN AND ABEL The way the story of Cain and Abel is related in Sura 5:30-35 shows quite clearly that this is copied from the Targum of Jonathan-ben- Uzziah, the Targum of Jerusalem and Pirke Rabbi Eleazar.

THE VISIT OF THE QUEEN OF SHEBA is related in Sura 27:17ff. We can also determine the source, which evidently is the II Targum of the Book of Esther (paraphrased translation), although Mohammed reports this as to be from the Bible.

HARUT AND MARUT Are two angels mentioned in Sura 2:102. Harut and Marut were idols worshipped in Armenia. Their existence was inspired by Marut, the Hindu god of the wind. We find this story related in the Talmud (Midrash Yalzut, chapter 44).

SEVEN HEAVENS AND SEVEN HELLS as reported of in Sura 15:44 and 17:44, find their source in the tradition called Hagigah and Zuhal.


Quranic concepts were taken from the Arabian past

ALLAH

This name was well known before the time of Mohammed as can be proved by the names of relatives of Mohammed: his father's name was Abd-ullah (slave of Allah) and his uncle as well as one of the hanifs was named Obeid-allah.

Besides this, Mohammed's reference to Allah was not criticized by the infidels of Mecca, as can be seen in the chapter 'The Collection of the Quran'.

THE KA'ABA

(Also called the Holy Masjid) is described as a shrine of worship by Deodorus Sicolus in 60 B.C.

HAJJ

The pilgrimage to the Ka'aba was practicized before Mohammed's time, including visits to Safa and Marwa and also the throwing of stones against a stone pillar, symbolizing Iblis (the devil), in Wadi Mina. This is still practised today.

PRAYER

The now extinct tribe of the Sabaeans who lived in the Arabian Peninsula observed seven daily prayers at appointed times. Mohammed appointed five of these. The Sabaeans also prayed for the dead, a custom that has been maintained.

RAMADAN

The Sabaeans fasted thirty days every year and celebrated the Eid. The fast was prolonged by one day, should the new moon not be clearly visible on Eid. Again this practise was incorporated in the new religion of Islam. In the Mishna Berkhoth (Jewish Talmud) it was said that fasting should begin and stop at the time when one could begin to distinquish between a white and black thread. This custom has also been incorporated in Islamic traditions.

We cannot accept that these imitations are purely accidental. We hold that they were known to, and approved, by Mohammed and that he incorporated them in the Quran, while others were incorporated in the Hadis.

www.answering-islam.org...

According to this Psalm the Ishmaelites, at least from the period between 1000-400 BC., were part of the nations who hated both the true God and his covenant people.

And now to summarize the data:


1. According to the Bible, the Ishmaelites were not worshiping Yahweh God.

2. Their alliance with nations that worshiped Baal suggests that they were also worshiping the false god Baal.

3. Both Muslim and non-Muslim sources state that Hubal was recognized as the chief presiding deity of the Kabah.

4. Muhammad’s grandfather worshiped Hubal, and even prayed to Allah while facing Hubal’s idol.

5. The Muslim sources claim that Hubal was brought to Mecca from Syria due to the influence of the Moabites and/or the Amalekites.

6. These nations worshiped Baal which demonstrates that Hubal is actually the Arabic form of Hebrew Ha Baal or the Baal.

The foregoing seriously damages the Muslim claim regarding Allah in pre-Islamic times being the same God of Abraham. The assertion that the pre-Islamic Ishmaelites worshiped the same God cannot be maintained in light of the Psalm’s clear statement that they, along with a host of other pagan nations, hated and opposed Yahweh and his covenant people Israel. The evidence linking Allah with Hubal implies this as well. Hence, if the Muslim contention that the Meccan Arabs are Ishmaelites is correct, then the god of Mecca, the Allah of pre-Islamic Arabia, is actually the false god Baal.

What makes this more interesting is that one modern Muslim scholar acknowledges that Hubal was the name for the moon god:

Among the many deities that the Arabs worshiped in and around the Ka'bah were the god Hubal and the three goddesses Al-lat, al-'Uzza, and Manat. Hubal was originally a moon god, and perhaps also a rain god, as hubal means "vapor." Al-lat was perhaps a feminine form of Allah, whose name simply means the goddess...

While the Arabs professed Allah, an Arabic word meaning "the God," to be the supreme deity, they did not worship him, nor did he play an active role in their lives... (Mahmoud M. Ayoub, Islam: Faith and History [Oneworld Publications, Oxford England, 2004], p. 15; underline emphasis ours)

a reply to: burdman30ott6
At least according to wikipedia, Ishmael had 12 sons and 1 known daughter, who ended up being the founders forefathers of various tribes, including Kedar, who was the founder of the tribe that Muhammad ended up born into.

At the time of Muhammad's birth, the predominant religion in his area was a pagan pantheon of Gods. As mentioned, they had retained Allah as a sort of sky-god or "over-god", but added tonnes of sub-gods for each task.
Aside from this, there were also Christians and Jews around at that time, although in much smaller numbers.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Wrong, there was the BYZANTINE Roman Empire, also known as Eastern Orthodox.

Why is it that people don't know these things?

What are you talking in reference to? ElectricFeel already mentioned the Byzantine empire (or Roman or Eastern Roman empire). The empire was not known as eastern orthodox, the religion they followed was, or at least is by others).

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Is Allah the Same as Yahweh? That answer would be no.

www.abrahamsdescendants.com...

Prior to Mohammed cleaning out the Kaaba of its pagan idols and making it a place of worship for Allah, Allah was but one of 360 idols that say in the Kaaba in Mecca.

This is simply the equivalent of a Greek entering the Parthenon and clearing out every god and goddess but Zeus and proclaims him as the one true god.

This is essentially what Mohammed did when he cleaned the Kaaba in Mecca. It is well documented that Allah was originally the Koresh clan deity of Mohammed’s uncle who raised him.

Mohammed’s father and uncle even had Allah in their name: AbduLLA (father) and ObiALLAH (uncle). Before Mohammed, Allah was a well-known Arabian moon deity who had three daughters Lat, Uzza and Manat (Sura 53:19-20).

Allah is even found in pre-Islamic Arabian inscriptions and poetry as the moon god. Therefore Allah has no connection to the God of Abraham (Ibrahim) or Ishmael.

Before Mohammed, Allah was a well-known Arabian moon deity who had three daughters that are even mentioned in the Koran; Lat, Uzza and Manat (Sura 53:19-20).

Arabic is a related language to Hebrew and Aramaic and nowhere in the language is Allah or anything close to it used for the name of God, Yahweh.

Actually, Allah is equivalent to the Babylonian god Baal. Even the symbol for Islam the Crescent moon and Star still declares this origin.

Just because Islam is a monotheistic faith that claims to believe in the God of Abraham (Ibrahim) does not mean they have the right god.

a reply to: infolurker

Interesting, although the source strikes me as being more about the theologic criticism than the historical information.

a reply to: ElectricFeel



Thank you! This was exactly the type of historical perspective I was searching for and just not finding anywhere. Obviously there's a particular bias in it, but at least it fills in the blanks pretty well of that Arabic gap between the Old Testament and the Quran.