I will tell you what you can do with Separation of Church and State

Even though I personally believe in God I can see how picking the Bible in a court room is inconsistent with the establishment of religion. I think the problem is much like the Second Amendment. Some people just want to translate something that should be obvious differently than it was intended.

I don't see the point of people swearing on anything or even promising to tell the truth. Very few people have the integrity to tell the truth anyway. I always assume anything I hear or read is a lie or at least a self-serving interpretation of the truth.

a reply to: Metallicus

Really, so all of us here on ATS are posting lies or self-serving truths?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Didn't say a state religion. This country was established on a Judeo Christian belief system and clearly the "state" incorporated many religious nuances that hold true today.

What happens if you refuse to swear on a bible?

Short answer: not a damn thing. Many states don't even bring out the bible anymore. Can't even think of the last time I saw somebody swear on a bible in court. You can also "affirm" your testimony is true, instead of "swearing" that it is.

As for politicians: they're not required to either. Teddy Roosevelt didn't use one. J Q Adams used a book of law. SCOTUS has held that it is simply a ceremonial tradition and does not establish "a religion" because it is, in the end, a personal choice of the oath taker.

To sum: there is no point in the constitution that says "separation of church and state." It simply states that there will be no state sanctioned religion, and that you are able to practice your religion freely. Those are the establishment clause (no state ordered religion) and the free exercise clause (do as you wish). The term "wall between church and state" was actually from a letter that Jefferson wrote.

They need to institute the "Pinky Swear".

That way Everyone would have to tell the truth, because,, you know. . . . pinky swear.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
To sum: there is no point in the constitution that says "separation of church and state." It simply states that there will be no state sanctioned religion, and that you are able to practice your religion freely. Those are the establishment clause (no state ordered religion) and the free exercise clause (do as you wish). The term "wall between church and state" was actually from a letter that Jefferson wrote.

Correct, but it was an idea who's time had come.
Now it is time for separation of money and government.
:: letstalkbitcoin.com...




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originally posted by: Ultralight
Didn't say a state religion.

That is what the establishment clause protects against. Unless you can demonstrate what the aforementioned examples you provided did to move us to a state religion then they do not violate the establishment clause.

This country was established on a Judeo Christian belief system and clearly the "state" incorporated many religious nuances that hold true today.

'Religious nuances' are not a state religion.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Are you disputing that the founders established this country on Judeo Christian doctrine?

a reply to: Ultralight

I will dispute that. But I think first I need to know what doctrines you're talking about and how large a part you believe Christianity played in the lives of the founding fathers.

originally posted by: Ultralight
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Are you disputing that the founders established this country on Judeo Christian doctrine?

How can the U.S. be founded on Judeo Christian beliefs if it's a secular nation? It can't. Founding fathers and framers of the Constitution like Presidents Jefferson and Adams would thoroughly disagree with your notion based on Jefferson's Letter to Danbury Baptist Church and the language of Adam's Treaty of Tripoli. Treaty of Tripoli Article 11 says- As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Thomas Jefferson

Even most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, “Question with boldness even the existence of a god.”

Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, “You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.”

John Adams

Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:

“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”

In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: “I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination.”

In his, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:

“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

“. . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”

James Madison

Called the father of the Constitution, Madison had no conventional sense of Christianity. In 1785, Madison wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments:

“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.”

The U.S. Constitution

The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself upon Christianity comes from the very document that defines it– the United States Constitution.

If indeed our Framers had aimed to found a Christian republic, it would seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out their Christian intentions in the Supreme law of the land. In fact, nowhere in the Constitution do we have a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus, or any Supreme Being. There occurs only two references to religion and they both use exclusionary wording. The 1st Amendment’s says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . .” and in Article VI, Section 3, “. . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802:

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”

As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom:

“Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”

A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the Christianity of early America, yet according to the historian, Robert T. Handy, “No more than 10 percent– probably less– of Americans in 1800 were members of congregations.”

a reply to: soulpowertothendegree

Which should prove that television is not reality television. I have been in court more than once for jury duty and various lawsuits and other legal issues and not once was I ever asked to swear with my hand on the Bible. In fact did not even see a Bible. You are asked to swear or affirm you are answering with the whole truth. And I live in the Bible Belt most of the time.

originally posted by: Ultralight
Are you disputing that the founders established this country on Judeo Christian doctrine?

Whther they did or did not is completely irrelevant to the question I asked you and you failed to address.

Have any of the items you previously listed caused the estbalishment of a state religion? If no, then they do not violate the establishment clause.

On a side note I suggest you read the article linked in the Original Post of this thread I authored regarding separation of church and state back in 2010. It clearly covers the founders religious sentiments in regards the Constitution.

a reply to: soulpowertothendegree

Actually no, you do not have to swear on any religious text if you don't want to. Some Christian groups do not believe they are to swear at all, so they just promise.

As long as you promise, you don't have to swear on anything.

Do you swear or affirm...it is up to you. Atheists aren't forced to use the Bible for swearing. Are you assuming they do?

a reply to: WarminIndy

Yes. Because TV.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: WarminIndy

Yes. Because TV.

The OP might also be one of those who believe the government is sending secret messages in movies.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
The OP might also be one of those who believe the government is sending secret messages in movies.

We are, erm, I mean, who believes that crap?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Dammit. Guess it's back to the drawing board now. Again.