Racism in the Bible

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Klassified
It's quite interesting that so often the defense in response to the OP's observations, as well as any other critique of scripture is to compare Christianity against all those other people who did it too. I've seen this repeatedly in numerous threads.

The problem with that defense is that Christianity claims moral superiority over the whole human race. There is no comparison. If you're the "moral majority", then you don't have the same excuse as those you consider lost and eternally condemned.

Those guys did it too, is not a defense.

I depends on what points responses are made. I referred to the fact that as the Old Testament - which is the one of the wrathful God forms the basis of Islam, Judaism and Christianity. That's not my assertation, it's a fact. So, regardless of the actual text, why does this always seem to point back to Christianity?

If I understand your question correctly, a few reasons.
I think one of the answers is in your post. Same wrathful god with his good guy hat on for the NT.
Secondly. As has been stated many times over, Christianity is the dominant religion in the Western world, and is therefore the one in everyone's face 24/7. Muslims and Jews aren't knocking on my door. They don't have a synagogue on every corner. There is a church on every corner, however. Christianity has had a heavy influence on Western society, and has had an influence in legislation.
Christianity is the majority voice, and therefore is the behemoth that sticks out like a sore thumb.

You are missing the point, whether where you live is predominantly Christian or not. The OT is still the base for all three faiths and while it may be true that currently Christianity is predominant in some of the Western world
that's neither here nor there. If Christianity is being judged to be racist by passages in the OT, then by default the other two also are - if you subscribe to the racist description that was then edited to say bigoted. I am not saying that this means the other two should be 'attacked' but to ignore the fact and say it's all about Christianity is wrong.

If religion - any religion has had a big influence on legislation, and I don't know what you are referring to, then that whole separation of state from faith didn't work very well, did it?

originally posted by: uncommitted
Sorry, can't agree with any of the above (edited for politeness).

I'm not here to defend anything. I believe the OT is a reflection of life in that part of the world in that particular time. Some pieces I find interesting and insightful, some bits I don't, but the difference is I don't assume my interpretation is therefore both the correct one and the only one.

Where did I say my interpretation was correct? I posted this in a forum so that there can be a discussion on it. If I wanted to preach the "truth", I'd just start a blog. That being said, you religious types keep telling me this, but I haven't seen many other interpretations of those passages in this thread.

The majority of the passages you quoted were from the OT, as far as I'm aware it's only the one from Matthew that could be considered exclusive to Christianity, although as Mohammed recognised Jesus as a prophet, you could argue it's accepted by Islam also. It's not a tired argument, it's stating the obvious.

It is tired. Why does the topic of my argument matter? Christianity is what I know. It is what I am most studied in, because I've lived that life. I really get tired of seeing this cry fest every time a Christianity thread appears, even the ones not authored by me. Though I will say this, people tend to lash out more when they are cornered. So when I do see these arguments, it implies to me that they don't have much in the way of counterpoints.

ETA - I'm not asking you to attack any faith, why should I? I'm pointing out a logical fact.

You are pointing out an irrelevant piece of information to the topic at hand.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: uncommitted
Sorry, can't agree with any of the above (edited for politeness).

I'm not here to defend anything. I believe the OT is a reflection of life in that part of the world in that particular time. Some pieces I find interesting and insightful, some bits I don't, but the difference is I don't assume my interpretation is therefore both the correct one and the only one.

Where did I say my interpretation was correct? I posted this in a forum so that there can be a discussion on it. If I wanted to preach the "truth", I'd just start a blog. That being said, you religious types keep telling me this, but I haven't seen many other interpretations of those passages in this thread.

The majority of the passages you quoted were from the OT, as far as I'm aware it's only the one from Matthew that could be considered exclusive to Christianity, although as Mohammed recognised Jesus as a prophet, you could argue it's accepted by Islam also. It's not a tired argument, it's stating the obvious.

It is tired. Why does the topic of my argument matter? Christianity is what I know. It is what I am most studied in, because I've lived that life. I really get tired of seeing this cry fest every time a Christianity thread appears, even the ones not authored by me. Though I will say this, people tend to lash out more when they are cornered. So when I do see these arguments, it implies to me that they don't have much in the way of counterpoints.

ETA - I'm not asking you to attack any faith, why should I? I'm pointing out a logical fact.

You are pointing out an irrelevant piece of information to the topic at hand.

Your OP is 'Racism in the Bible'. It therefore applies to all three. Who's lashing out? I'm merely stating the obvious, your OP seems to be trying to avoid it. There is no cry fest that I've seen, merely people pointing out their own point of view. No one has been cornered, whatever their personal belief, and that's quite an emotive statement from you, but one again where you don't seem to appreciate that their interpretation is as valid as your own.

Using phrases like 'you religious types' is kind of tired though.

a reply to: uncommitted

I notice you still aren't addressing the points in the OP and are still entirely fixed on debating me.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'm a so called Christian but I was talking with someone the other day and my belief system doesn't follow the bible to the t so I should consider being called something else... Like what? I have no idea.. Maybe an open minded spiritual person. Why do you say Christians don't like talking to you just cause you're agnostic? I'll talk to anyone. I have atheist and agnostic friends in real life and we discuss things without looking down on each other.

About the op that you wrote. I get it. Bible is full of racism and a whole lot of other crazy. I feel the bible is stories of our past but also stories that are metaphors and parables. Sure there are extremist Christians that believe every word to be literal. I don't take the bible literally nor have I ever tried to justify my actions with a passage from the bible.

I just know not every "Christian" is the same. I can't find a church cause I don't like what they try to teach my child, when I'm trying to let my boy know there are many diff beliefs and that it's okay to believe in all sorts. As long as it doesn't cause harm or hate.
Anyway.. I hope I make sense and am not inserting my foot in my mouth.. See I don't normally even post responses in this section cause I am def not knowledgeable enough to do so.

Much peace
-nat

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: uncommitted

I notice you still aren't addressing the points in the OP and are still entirely fixed on debating me.

If you look through this thread I have given my own personal response (for what it's worth) to the OP several times. It's your OP and your interpretation of particular Bible passages that I've responded to, and your further comments so it's going to seem like I'm debating with you. Not sure why that would be strange. Again, phrases like 'entirely fixed'.... hmmmm.

originally posted by: natalia
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'm a so called Christian but I was talking with someone the other day and my belief system doesn't follow the bible to the t so I should consider being called something else... Like what? I have no idea.. Maybe an open minded spiritual person. Why do you say Christians don't like talking to you just cause you're agnostic? I'll talk to anyone. I have atheist and agnostic friends in real life and we discuss things without looking down on each other.

Read some of the responses to me in this thread and you'll get a good idea why I said that.

About the op that you wrote. I get it. Bible is full of racism and a whole lot of other crazy. I feel the bible is stories of our past but also stories that are metaphors and parables. Sure there are extremist Christians that believe every word to be literal. I don't take the bible literally nor have I ever tried to justify my actions with a passage from the bible.

I just know not every "Christian" is the same. I can't find a church cause I don't like what they try to teach my child, when I'm trying to let my boy know there are many diff beliefs and that it's okay to believe in all sorts. As long as it doesn't cause harm or hate.
Anyway.. I hope I make sense and am not inserting my foot in my mouth.. See I don't normally even post responses in this section cause I am def not knowledgeable enough to do so.

Much peace
-nat

To be honest, I appreciate your response more than most of the other ones from the Christians in this thread. At least you didn't immediately feign disgust or indignity because someone dared point some things out in the Bible that paint it in an unfavorable light. I certainly wish there were more Christians like you who understand how to leave the bad parts out and take the good. Too many think the Bible is infallible, but it is just a book written by men. Divinely inspired or not, humans aren't perfect. They are bound to interject their personal agendas and opinions into the "facts".

a reply to: uncommitted

Alright whatever. Whenever you decide to get back ontopic. I'm here to talk to, but until then I'm not debating myself or my intentions. Also, stop getting so emotional.

originally posted by: Klassified
Same wrathful god with his good guy hat on for the NT.

I love that comment
Same wrathful God
its very accurate, God is wrathful, God abhors sin and will judge a sinner/nation that does not repent, Christian Jew pagan or muslim.
God has offered us a pardon, if we refuse it His wrath/judgement will fall.

If you read the OT you would see He pardoned many back then as well, just you dont acknowledge it, take Nineveh as an example.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: uncommitted

Alright whatever. Whenever you decide to get back on topic. I'm here to talk to, but until then I'm not debating myself or my intentions. Also, stop getting so emotional.

Emotional? You are very angry and bitter, you accuse others of emotional venting but your emotions are equally displayed.

Your emotions are not that of a balanced person either.
I note hate, anger, bitterness and arrogance. Get some help, its consuming you.

Krazyshot a religious cult tells people that only they are right, nobody else can be right. A balanced view is listening understanding and then making a balanced decision. Add accepting alternate views are valid even if not believed

sadly (do you understand that word) you must verbally bash others into accepting your views, you cant accept others having a differing opinion. Are you like this with politics or just religion.

I can tell by what you write you have no formal understanding of christianity or judaism yet think you understand EVERYTHING
again thats sad because you know very little. Even I cant explain all the nuances, nor do I understand it all. Yet you make out you know everything

Yes there is racism in the bible, heaps of it, the Jews believed they were superior, even under Roman Syrian Babylonian rule they thought themselves superior at times.
Where are they now, where have they been
Do you see a lesson to those who are not humble?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: uncommitted

Alright whatever. Whenever you decide to get back ontopic. I'm here to talk to, but until then I'm not debating myself or my intentions. Also, stop getting so emotional.

I think borntowatch has said it a lot more eloquently than me. If you look back through the thread I divided out the OT pieces and the NT pieces and gave my opinions on them. You didn't agree with them, that's fine, we live in a world where we can all have opinions.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Klassified
It's quite interesting that so often the defense in response to the OP's observations, as well as any other critique of scripture is to compare Christianity against all those other people who did it too. I've seen this repeatedly in numerous threads.

The problem with that defense is that Christianity claims moral superiority over the whole human race. There is no comparison. If you're the "moral majority", then you don't have the same excuse as those you consider lost and eternally condemned.

Those guys did it too, is not a defense.

I depends on what points responses are made. I referred to the fact that as the Old Testament - which is the one of the wrathful God forms the basis of Islam, Judaism and Christianity. That's not my assertation, it's a fact. So, regardless of the actual text, why does this always seem to point back to Christianity?

If I understand your question correctly, a few reasons.
I think one of the answers is in your post. Same wrathful god with his good guy hat on for the NT.
Secondly. As has been stated many times over, Christianity is the dominant religion in the Western world, and is therefore the one in everyone's face 24/7. Muslims and Jews aren't knocking on my door. They don't have a synagogue on every corner. There is a church on every corner, however. Christianity has had a heavy influence on Western society, and has had an influence in legislation.
Christianity is the majority voice, and therefore is the behemoth that sticks out like a sore thumb.

You are missing the point, whether where you live is predominantly Christian or not. The OT is still the base for all three faiths and while it may be true that currently Christianity is predominant in some of the Western world
that's neither here nor there. If Christianity is being judged to be racist by passages in the OT, then by default the other two also are - if you subscribe to the racist description that was then edited to say bigoted. I am not saying that this means the other two should be 'attacked' but to ignore the fact and say it's all about Christianity is wrong.

If religion - any religion has had a big influence on legislation, and I don't know what you are referring to, then that whole separation of state from faith didn't work very well, did it?

Neither I, or the OP, from what I remember of his posts in the past, have left out the other two. We have both included all three previously. But this thread specifically addresses the Christian perspective in the OP.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Klassified
Same wrathful god with his good guy hat on for the NT.

I love that comment
Same wrathful God
its very accurate, God is wrathful, God abhors sin and will judge a sinner/nation that does not repent, Christian Jew pagan or muslim.
God has offered us a pardon, if we refuse it His wrath/judgement will fall.

If you read the OT you would see He pardoned many back then as well, just you dont acknowledge it, take Nineveh as an example.

Lol! Thank you. Couldn't have made the point better myself. Starred.

originally posted by: borntowatch

Yes there is racism in the bible, heaps of it, the Jews believed they were superior, even under Roman Syrian Babylonian rule they thought themselves superior at times.
Where are they now, where have they been
Do you see a lesson to those who are not humble?

I cut all the useless filler that is trying to debate me out of your post because I don't care about what you think about me. It's irrelevant.

The Jews are doing ok for themselves, no thanks to the Christians who have been persecuting them for 1500 years now. It's thanks to the Christians being intolerant of Jews and not letting them take any other careers that they became masters of the world wide banking institutions. So if anything, the Jews are doing alright for themselves in SPITE of the Christians.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

The Jews are doing ok for themselves, no thanks to the Christians who have been persecuting them for 1500 years now. It's thanks to the Christians being intolerant of Jews and not letting them take any other careers that they became masters of the world wide banking institutions. So if anything, the Jews are doing alright for themselves in SPITE of the Christians.

They are the most persecuted people on earth

Even here on ats they get smashed, the whole ME wants them dead and pushed into the sea.

Yes christians have persecuted them though many christians have supported them

Your statement is another blatant misrepresentation of the truth
Christians who have been persecuting them for 1500 years now.
You are an extremist, you spew hate and only one side of the story, the story you want to believe.

It was the christians in the UK who helped the Jews return to Palestine, good or bad decision, it was christians who helped them

There are thousands of organisations set up by christians to help Israel, a simple google search will show this.

KS you are allowing your emotions to cloud your judgement or maybe its ignorance and anger

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

The Jews are doing ok for themselves, no thanks to the Christians who have been persecuting them for 1500 years now. It's thanks to the Christians being intolerant of Jews and not letting them take any other careers that they became masters of the world wide banking institutions. So if anything, the Jews are doing alright for themselves in SPITE of the Christians.

They are the most persecuted people on earth

Even here on ats they get smashed, the whole ME wants them dead and pushed into the sea.

Yes christians have persecuted them though many christians have supported them

Your statement is another blatant misrepresentation of the truth
Christians who have been persecuting them for 1500 years now.
You are an extremist, you spew hate and only one side of the story, the story you want to believe.

It was the christians in the UK who helped the Jews return to Palestine, good or bad decision, it was christians who helped them

There are thousands of organisations set up by christians to help Israel, a simple google search will show this.

KS you are allowing your emotions to cloud your judgement or maybe its ignorance and anger

I would add to that that even though there were extremists in the UK such as Mosely in WW2, the UK arranged for many Jewish people to be brought to the UK for safe harbour as the intentions of Nazism became clear (probably not enough, but hey, there was a war on). As at that time the UK was undoubtedly Christian by the majority, this shows on the whole, the persecutions of the past, are part of the past - unfortunately, persecution of people of all races, colours and creeds will sadly probably never be resigned once and for all to history.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

The Jews are doing ok for themselves, no thanks to the Christians who have been persecuting them for 1500 years now. It's thanks to the Christians being intolerant of Jews and not letting them take any other careers that they became masters of the world wide banking institutions. So if anything, the Jews are doing alright for themselves in SPITE of the Christians.

They are the most persecuted people on earth

Are they? Christians keep telling me that they are the most persecuted people on earth.

Even here on ats they get smashed, the whole ME wants them dead and pushed into the sea.

No HERE on ATS, we talk about not liking Israel. Not liking Israel is NOT the same as persecuting Jews. A country's government is not a religion.

Yes christians have persecuted them though many christians have supported them

Your statement is another blatant misrepresentation of the truth
Christians who have been persecuting them for 1500 years now.
You are an extremist, you spew hate and only one side of the story, the story you want to believe.

You know for someone who so vehemently disagrees with what I'm saying, you continually fail to produce a counterpoint to what I'm saying. Just, "you're wrong!" over and over again accompanied by emotional rhetoric and ad hominems.

It was the christians in the UK who helped the Jews return to Palestine, good or bad decision, it was christians who helped them

There are thousands of organisations set up by christians to help Israel, a simple google search will show this.

KS you are allowing your emotions to cloud your judgement or maybe its ignorance and anger

I never denied such things exist. You are putting words in my mouth. I just said that the Christians are the ones traditionally responsible for persecuting the Jews. Just because other Christians help them out now in the modern world, doesn't mean we ignore all the times it happened in the past. Let's not forget that Hitler was a Christian and even had the support of the Catholic church at the beginning of WWII.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: hounddoghowlie



It's the same thing with slavery. It's not right, wasn't right then, but it was something mostly every culture practiced in some form or other.

You can't exactly go around judging the world of that time by today's standard. Now people of today who want to live in today's world and standards by the standards of those days ... absolutely, you can tell them, "Hell, no!"

So, if enough people do something that is clearly wrong (slavery), it is ok with you? You're confusing me on said subject.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

The Jews are doing ok for themselves, no thanks to the Christians who have been persecuting them for 1500 years now. It's thanks to the Christians being intolerant of Jews and not letting them take any other careers that they became masters of the world wide banking institutions. So if anything, the Jews are doing alright for themselves in SPITE of the Christians.

They are the most persecuted people on earth

Are they? Christians keep telling me that they are the most persecuted people on earth.

Where do they say that exactly? If you are saying it in the present tense I think people from all faiths are being persecuted in different parts of the world, but where specifically are 'Christians' telling you they are the most persecuted people on Earth? I assume you are meaning some individuals on ATS have said that? So?

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

The Jews are doing ok for themselves, no thanks to the Christians who have been persecuting them for 1500 years now. It's thanks to the Christians being intolerant of Jews and not letting them take any other careers that they became masters of the world wide banking institutions. So if anything, the Jews are doing alright for themselves in SPITE of the Christians.

They are the most persecuted people on earth

Are they? Christians keep telling me that they are the most persecuted people on earth.

Where do they say that exactly? If you are saying it in the present tense I think people from all faiths are being persecuted in different parts of the world, but where specifically are 'Christians' telling you they are the most persecuted people on Earth? I assume you are meaning some individuals on ATS have said that? So?

They say it here on ATS. It's one of the standard retorts I get when I post in one of the many Islamophobia threads scattered around ATS. I also see it used when a Christian wants to adopt a Christian persecution complex when I start debating their religion. I'm pretty sure it hasn't sprung up in this thread though.