Racism in the Bible

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Klassified

I like your thinking here Barcs, but it's kinda hard to accomplish that noble goal when you have those who earnestly believe they MUST convert/coerce the world to their cult, and anyone who refuses is condemned to everlasting punishment by their god. That doesn't leave much room for co-existence, or "different paths to the same goal".

Yeah of course because thats every Christian on earth and we have guns

You love extremism dont you Klass, except a few corner city preachers I have never seen it, maybe a few US televangelists who carry on
So christians banging on your door with rifle butts, coercing you with bags of lollies, what exactly?

Prone to a little catastrophising are we

Lets not goad, and build straw men to tear down.
You think me using "conquer the earth" as a way to describe "the great commission" is extreme? We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think it's a fair statement. The truth is the truth. Christianity sees itself as the only viable way to god. It teaches that any other way makes you a thief and a liar. Jesus own words. It teaches that anyone not accepting Christ is condemned by god. All from your own bible.
No extremism there, eh? No bigotry whatsoever.
At least admit that you agree with your own bible, and Jesus own words. Christianity, like Islam cannot live side by side with any other religion in peace. The bible and history shows that. It has to be the Jesus way, or no way at all.

a reply to: borntowatch

Yeah I do agree with you, God says love them so I am forced to love them, simple isnt it

And therein lies the issue. You cannot force anyone to love someone else. You can force them to act in a certain way toward someone else under threat of displeasure or harm though.

Its my desire to hate and attack, to seek revenge, to destroy people who destroy me, but God has told me to love them. Sometimes it really sucks and I really struggle, it very hard work.

Of course you feel that way. It's a natural response to someone vehemently questioning or attacking your beliefs.

Like now when I have to explain simple logic.

It is not I who doesn't understand the previous posters reason for stating such. It is you who does not understand why anyone would question such a "simple statement of faith". The bible has numerous stories of god commanding people to do the most outlandish and crazy things I've ever read. Too many to list here. And we know what happens if you refuse. Ask Jonah. So if god says it, you best do it, no matter how crazy it is. Right? That's what I was getting at. Blind obedience and faith.

And that's partly what the OP is getting at as well. Extreme bigotry, and in some cases racism because god said so. I know it's the OT, but it's still the foundation that Christianity is built upon.

BTW. Don't let your frustration and anger get to you. This debate isn't worth that energy. It's certainly nothing personal on my end. My posts are aimed at an ideology, not at individuals.

originally posted by: Klassified

Lets not goad, and build straw men to tear down.
You think me using "conquer the earth" as a way to describe "the great commission" is extreme? We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think it's a fair statement. The truth is the truth. Christianity sees itself as the only viable way to god. It teaches that any other way makes you a thief and a liar. Jesus own words. It teaches that anyone not accepting Christ is condemned by god. All from your own bible.
No extremism there, eh? No bigotry whatsoever.
At least admit that you agree with your own bible, and Jesus own words. Christianity, like Islam cannot live side by side with any other religion in peace. The bible and history shows that. It has to be the Jesus way, or no way at all.

I didnt write the book, I just believe it.

Dont harm anybody is the gist.

Does it say Jesus is the only way to salvation, Yes.
Do I believe that...yes

Does that mean everyone else is a thief and a liar, no it doesnt, just not interested or ignorant. I know people who believe in Jesus as the Messiah but choose not to be Christian

can we live side by side with other religions, yes, I have attended other faiths services just to have a look and see what they are about, no harm to me or them.

Can we live with extremists, maybe like you are becoming, probably not.


You are an extremist, you are the one who will take up the gun, your type
You can not accept anybody who disagrees with you

originally posted by: Klassified

Of course you feel that way. It's a natural response to someone vehemently questioning or attacking your beliefs.

Strangely Klassified I question my beliefs all the time, thats why I am called to live by faith.

as for people bashing and attacking my religion, so what. I see the way some christians act and feel the same way you do.

My comment alluded to other things, not these discussions, other things that make me struggle with God. This is only talk. No offence caused

and you cant force anyone to love but you can teach people the value of forgiveness and the value of love as opposed to hate and anger
I can see the value of love and forgiveness so I work hard on that. So my bad, "force" was a poor choice of words.

originally posted by: Klassified

Of course you feel that way. It's a natural response to someone vehemently questioning or attacking your beliefs.

Strangely Klassified I question my beliefs all the time, thats why I am called to live by faith.

as for people bashing and attacking my religion, so what. I see the way some christians act and feel the same way you do.

My comment alluded to other things, not these discussions, other things that make me struggle with God. This is only talk. No offence caused

and you cant force anyone to love but you can teach people the value of forgiveness and the value of love as opposed to hate and anger
I can see the value of love and forgiveness so I work hard on that. So my bad, "force" was a poor choice of words.

originally posted by: Klassified

Of course you feel that way. It's a natural response to someone vehemently questioning or attacking your beliefs.

Strangely Klassified I question my beliefs all the time, thats why I am called to live by faith.

as for people bashing and attacking my religion, so what. I see the way some christians act and feel the same way you do.

My comment alluded to other things, not these discussions, other things that make me struggle with God. This is only talk. No offence caused

and you cant force anyone to love but you can teach people the value of forgiveness and the value of love as opposed to hate and anger
I can see the value of love and forgiveness so I work hard on that. So my bad, "force" was a poor choice of words.

edit on b2015Sat, 25 Apr 2015 23:58:03 -050043020156pm302015-04-25T23:58:03-05:00 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)

a reply to: borntowatch

I didnt write the book, I just believe it.

Wow. Did you just say that?

Dont harm anybody is the gist.

It means a bit more than that, and we both know it, but it isn't worth arguing the semantics of what we both already know.

Does it say Jesus is the only way to salvation, Yes. Do I believe that...yes

Thank you. Emphasis on the "only".

Does that mean everyone else is a thief and a liar, no it doesnt, just not interested or ignorant. I know people who believe in Jesus as the Messiah but choose not to be Christian.

First. I must apologize. I misquoted that verse, and I should know better. It is thief and robber. Not thief and liar. Nevertheless, the point still stands. Anyone teaching or holding to any other belief is a thief and a robber(John 10). Obviously there is much in that chapter pertaining to this, but I won't expound on that here.

can we live side by side with other religions, yes, I have attended other faiths services just to have a look and see what they are about, no harm to me or them.

Some of you can. The more liberal Christians who aren't so literalist/fundamentalist, but the latter can't. They are like wolves in sheepskin. Literalists/fundamentalists/dominionists and so on. The fact still remains though, your own bible condemns anyone not of your faith as the walking dead, and eternally lost. There is no middle ground for Christianity. You're either in, or you're out. Attending other faiths services, and believing within yourself, they are deceived, and going to hell, is different from finding common ground, and seeing their path as just another path to god different from your own, as Barcs was talking about.

Can we live with extremists, maybe like you are becoming, probably not.

It's funny you call me an extremist in the making, yet it is your bible, and your doctrine that are adamant that anyone outside of Christianity is a godless heathen who will be judged by god, and eternally condemned. No exceptions made. Nothing extremist there. I can't imagine why anyone would be upset to be told that. Especially in their own home by those who go knocking on doors, and stopping people in the street to tell them about how much god loves them. "Good news! You're reconciled to god through Jesus Christ who loved you and gave his life for you. What? Not interested?" *shakes dust off feet* "Go to hell then."

You are an extremist, you are the one who will take up the gun, your type You can not accept anybody who disagrees with you

Now you're accusing me of taking up arms against the Christians. I'm sure you believe I'll be manning one of the guillotines too. I would be much more likely to defend your right to believe as you do. Unlike Christianity, I don't believe you're lost because you don't think the same way I do. Even if your bible does teach bigotry and intolerance disguised as love, for anyone who disagrees with it. And I see "the great commission" as an affront to all humanity. Especially in context with the new testament as a whole. It is marching orders for the saints. They don't call Christians soldiers for no reason.

Of course you feel that way. It's a natural response to someone vehemently questioning or attacking your beliefs.

That is your perception. Is it not? You feel attacked, even though it is your ideology, not you that is being questioned.

Don't take these threads and debates so seriously that you get angry and upset. It isn't worth it. This is a discussion forum. We discuss many things here, and we frequently disagree. I have learned much from those who disagree with me. I accept them just fine. I have no malice toward them or you. Ask my devout Christian family. I'm harmless. We have our own go rounds on this topic. But I don't heckle them when they say grace at Thanksgiving dinner. I wait til after.

originally posted by: borntowatch
Can I, yeah

Its a Jewish rule book that teaches jews how they should live and the standards they are yto live by

It is the laws and rules of the land, there is no compulsion to live these laws if you are not in the land.

The reason for the laws is to teach that God expects His people to act better than others.

The Jews dont have to worship God or sacrifice animals to Him, but if they want to then God wants them to take it seriously. You break Gods rules you will suffer severely

So what has that OT Jewish law to do with Christians and hating people today

Verses are not from Torah but from NIV as stated in my post (New International Version of Bible).

So you don't have to follow rules stated in bible, only Jews?! Good to know...

originally posted by: SuperFrog

Verses are not from Torah but from NIV as stated in my post (New International Version of Bible).

So you don't have to follow rules stated in bible, only Jews?! Good to know...

Deuteronomy is the Torah.

Its sad that you dont understand the difference between the OT and the NT
The NIV has both the Torah and the Gospels and Epistles in it

I am sorry you dont know the difference but think you know enough to comment, its really sad.

originally posted by: borntowatch
Deuteronomy is the Torah.

Its sad that you dont understand the difference between the OT and the NT
The NIV has both the Torah and the Gospels and Epistles in it

I am sorry you dont know the difference but think you know enough to comment, its really sad.

Instead of answering question, you will use ad-hominem? Interesting approach.

Simple question, are first books of Bible part of Bible or not? From your writing, it sounds like they are not.

Now, even more interesting, if those are God words, why they differ?

And if YES, they are part of Bible, as well in different form (more revengeful and angry God) Torah, what above verses means?!

originally posted by: ColeYounger
The racism we see today was largely started by the nazis circa WW 2.

Up until fairly recently (maybe 100 years ago or less) a person's "race" was determined solely by the language they spoke and the gods they worshipped.

What?!?! Ugh American slavery!?!

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Klassified

I like your thinking here Barcs, but it's kinda hard to accomplish that noble goal when you have those who earnestly believe they MUST convert/coerce the world to their cult, and anyone who refuses is condemned to everlasting punishment by their god. That doesn't leave much room for co-existence, or "different paths to the same goal".

Yeah of course because thats every Christian on earth and we have guns

You love extremism dont you Klass, except a few corner city preachers I have never seen it, maybe a few US televangelists who carry on
So christians banging on your door with rifle butts, coercing you with bags of lollies, what exactly?

Prone to a little catastrophising are we

Lets not goad, and build straw men to tear down.
You think me using "conquer the earth" as a way to describe "the great commission" is extreme? We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think it's a fair statement. The truth is the truth. Christianity sees itself as the only viable way to god. It teaches that any other way makes you a thief and a liar. Jesus own words. It teaches that anyone not accepting Christ is condemned by god. All from your own bible.
No extremism there, eh? No bigotry whatsoever.
At least admit that you agree with your own bible, and Jesus own words. Christianity, like Islam cannot live side by side with any other religion in peace. The bible and history shows that. It has to be the Jesus way, or no way at all.

Even worse... Christianity see's it's self as the only way not to be tortured for all eternity by there god. To me that's way worse then nonbelievers being left out of the worlds coolest after party. That leaves room for others personal beliefs not to conflict with Christianity. However, the belief that the Christian god will kidnap the souls of all unbelievers and torture them for all eternity, doesn't. It leaves no room for anything but Christianity. To them in every way it's "our way or the highway".

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: borntowatch
Deuteronomy is the Torah.

Its sad that you dont understand the difference between the OT and the NT
The NIV has both the Torah and the Gospels and Epistles in it

I am sorry you dont know the difference but think you know enough to comment, its really sad.

Instead of answering question, you will use ad-hominem? Interesting approach.

Simple question, are first books of Bible part of Bible or not? From your writing, it sounds like they are not.

Now, even more interesting, if those are God words, why they differ?

And if YES, they are part of Bible, as well in different form (more revengeful and angry God) Torah, what above verses means?!

Superfrog if that's what you really are?

I can only give you a short and basic explanation, short and basic like most people around here have. Its far more complex than that. It will only confuse you because I am not a teacher

Also I think you are asking based on spite

You are already taking a Gnostics view based on your pre conceived opinion.

originally posted by: Entreri06
Even worse... Christianity see's it's self as the only way not to be tortured for all eternity by there god. To me that's way worse then nonbelievers being left out of the worlds coolest after party. That leaves room for others personal beliefs not to conflict with Christianity. However, the belief that the Christian god will kidnap the souls of all unbelievers and torture them for all eternity, doesn't. It leaves no room for anything but Christianity. To them in every way it's "our way or the highway".

No 1 We do see it that way because that is what we are told, we didnt make the rule, we just abide by it. We choose to accept and live by the rule. You are complaining that because we dont speed we dont get a fine and warn you to slow down or you will get a fine.

No 2 Nonbelievers get left out because they dont believe, thats not something we can remedy, its their choice.

No 3 God does not kidnap souls and torture them for all eternity, God separates those who do not accept Him from himself. Thats hell.

No 4 Its not our way or the highway, you are taking your way because its your way.

No 5 Its not our way or the highway, its Gods way, we didnt write the book. Stop blaming Christians, we believe in Gods word, we didnt write it. Its not my way, I just believe it and try to live it

You seem a little illogical and disjointed,

a reply to: borntowatch

Wait, did you just say that you don't have simple answer?!

To me it looks like you are more confused then me, asking question.

originally posted by: borntowatch
As I said you wont understand
You cant understand because you cant think

Yes there is racism in the bible
People are racist
The bible tells people a history of racism

How do I refute what I have explained is a fact

Dose God allow it, yes God allows it because we have a free will, does God endorse it, no.

You are just looking for an argument to evangelise your faith

What do you mean God doesn't endorse it? I posted clear evidence of God SANCTIONING it.

Krazyshot
I dont buy into your religion, sorry

Religion? What religion?

originally posted by: randyvs

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Though I think it is funny that you are the second Christian to get offended

Oh but I'm not offended homeboy. I'm disgusted.

Why? Because I'm doing to your bible what you guys try to do to Evolution all the time? Pick it apart. Except I'M actually making an attempt to use the source material to argue my point instead of straw mans.

Oh yes, the Bible has suffered greatly because of you.
So much for why but I do wonder how much of your BS and
obsession for cookie cutter lies you actually believe yourself?

Cookie cutter lies? I posted phrases from the bible. Are you saying the bible is lying?

originally posted by: uncommitted
You really are obsessed aren't you? I'm sorry, but I won't continue a discussion with someone acting like a 13 year old who gets so sulky when people (like, most of them in this thread alone) don't agree with their opinion. But I do have one thing to add...........

Obsessed? No. I'm just having a discussion here. I'm also not sure where you get the idea that most don't agree with me. I see that just about all the Christians don't agree with me, but then again I'm not surprised. That comes with the territory of what I'm doing. Y'all take your bible too seriously and think it can't be analyzed for errors. Then when someone does it you get offended and start flinging distracting arguments like the one above (acting like a 13 year old? PLEASE!) instead of actually arguing the points being put forth.

Throughout this thread, you keep referring to Christians, when the first post in your OP was based on a passage from the Old Testament which is a base on which the three Abrahemic faiths were built. Why do you not question all three faiths, or is that just down to your weird obsession with Christianity?

Case in point. Pulling out the tired "Why don't you attack the other faiths?" Whine argument. The reason I keep calling on Christianity is because I cited the bible in the OP. This thread is about the Christian text. I never made any attempt to cover that up. If you can't handle that, then too bad.

originally posted by: Klassified
It's quite interesting that so often the defense in response to the OP's observations, as well as any other critique of scripture is to compare Christianity against all those other people who did it too. I've seen this repeatedly in numerous threads.

The problem with that defense is that Christianity claims moral superiority over the whole human race. There is no comparison. If you're the "moral majority", then you don't have the same excuse as those you consider lost and eternally condemned.

Those guys did it too, is not a defense.

I depends on what points responses are made. I referred to the fact that as the Old Testament - which is the one of the wrathful God forms the basis of Islam, Judaism and Christianity. That's not my assertation, it's a fact. So, regardless of the actual text, why does this always seem to point back to Christianity?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: uncommitted
You really are obsessed aren't you? I'm sorry, but I won't continue a discussion with someone acting like a 13 year old who gets so sulky when people (like, most of them in this thread alone) don't agree with their opinion. But I do have one thing to add...........

Obsessed? No. I'm just having a discussion here. I'm also not sure where you get the idea that most don't agree with me. I see that just about all the Christians don't agree with me, but then again I'm not surprised. That comes with the territory of what I'm doing. Y'all take your bible too seriously and think it can't be analyzed for errors. Then when someone does it you get offended and start flinging distracting arguments like the one above (acting like a 13 year old? PLEASE!) instead of actually arguing the points being put forth.

Throughout this thread, you keep referring to Christians, when the first post in your OP was based on a passage from the Old Testament which is a base on which the three Abrahemic faiths were built. Why do you not question all three faiths, or is that just down to your weird obsession with Christianity?

Case in point. Pulling out the tired "Why don't you attack the other faiths?" Whine argument. The reason I keep calling on Christianity is because I cited the bible in the OP. This thread is about the Christian text. I never made any attempt to cover that up. If you can't handle that, then too bad.

Sorry, can't agree with any of the above (edited for politeness).

I'm not here to defend anything. I believe the OT is a reflection of life in that part of the world in that particular time. Some pieces I find interesting and insightful, some bits I don't, but the difference is I don't assume my interpretation is therefore both the correct one and the only one.

The majority of the passages you quoted were from the OT, as far as I'm aware it's only the one from Matthew that could be considered exclusive to Christianity, although as Mohammed recognised Jesus as a prophet, you could argue it's accepted by Islam also. It's not a tired argument, it's stating the obvious.

ETA - I'm not asking you to attack any faith, why should I? I'm pointing out a logical fact.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Klassified
It's quite interesting that so often the defense in response to the OP's observations, as well as any other critique of scripture is to compare Christianity against all those other people who did it too. I've seen this repeatedly in numerous threads.

The problem with that defense is that Christianity claims moral superiority over the whole human race. There is no comparison. If you're the "moral majority", then you don't have the same excuse as those you consider lost and eternally condemned.

Those guys did it too, is not a defense.

I depends on what points responses are made. I referred to the fact that as the Old Testament - which is the one of the wrathful God forms the basis of Islam, Judaism and Christianity. That's not my assertation, it's a fact. So, regardless of the actual text, why does this always seem to point back to Christianity?

If I understand your question correctly, a few reasons.
I think one of the answers is in your post. Same wrathful god with his good guy hat on for the NT.
Secondly. As has been stated many times over, Christianity is the dominant religion in the Western world, and is therefore the one in everyone's face 24/7. Muslims and Jews aren't knocking on my door. They don't have a synagogue on every corner. There is a church on every corner, however. Christianity has had a heavy influence on Western society, and has had an influence in legislation.
Christianity is the majority voice, and therefore is the behemoth that sticks out like a sore thumb.