Barack Obama will not label 1915 massacre of Armenians a genocide

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: chuck258

originally posted by: introvert
Perhaps someone can educate me and tell me why it even matters what Obama calls it.

Call it genocide, murder..whatever. It's only a label. It does not change the fact that people were killed.

Why get caught up in the political "symbolism"?

Well then maybe we should just stop acknowledging slavery in America's pasts. Or maybe we should just sweep the entire Atlantic Slave Trade under the rug.

Maybe we should just not acknowledge the KKK as a hate organization.


Doesn't sound so good now does it?


In the space of one year, the Ottomans butchered 5 times as many people that came to the United States from Africa in nearly 350. This is a huge deal. Obama not acknowledging it only confirms what we already know anyway. He is more interested in appeasing and catering to Muslims than anything else.

I think you may be missing the point.

Obama is acknowledging the atrocities that took place, but hesitates to use the term "genocide" because of the political consequences that may occur.

No one is failing to acknowledge what happened.

No, I think I have it right. And I even mentioned it. He is not calling it Genocide so he can cater to Muslims. You call it political consequences, I call it catering to Muslims.

originally posted by: Realtruth
I will tell you why Obama didn't say it was a genocide.

Years ago a very powerful Jewish rabbi was speaking at the University of Michigan Q and A session, when I was a student there.

The Detroit area has a very large population of Armenian people.

A very good friend of mine, who is Armenian asked the Rabbi why he thought the "Armenian genocide" was having a very hard time being recognized.

The answer was simple and direct, and I heard it myself. "if the Armenian genocide is recognized it would diminish the Jewish genocide/holocaust in WWII".

I have to tell you we both looked at each other and just shook our heads in amazement, but at least we got the direct truth. lol

Jewish lobbyist's are a very powerful force in DC

For some reason I think you are whitewashing or giving this to us out of context what may have been said. The Armenian genocide doesn't stack up to the Holocaust. Anyone could see that. But that doesn't mean the Armenian genocide wasn't tragic.

originally posted by: chuck258

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: chuck258

originally posted by: introvert
Perhaps someone can educate me and tell me why it even matters what Obama calls it.

Call it genocide, murder..whatever. It's only a label. It does not change the fact that people were killed.

Why get caught up in the political "symbolism"?

Well then maybe we should just stop acknowledging slavery in America's pasts. Or maybe we should just sweep the entire Atlantic Slave Trade under the rug.

Maybe we should just not acknowledge the KKK as a hate organization.


Doesn't sound so good now does it?


In the space of one year, the Ottomans butchered 5 times as many people that came to the United States from Africa in nearly 350. This is a huge deal. Obama not acknowledging it only confirms what we already know anyway. He is more interested in appeasing and catering to Muslims than anything else.

I think you may be missing the point.

Obama is acknowledging the atrocities that took place, but hesitates to use the term "genocide" because of the political consequences that may occur.

No one is failing to acknowledge what happened.

No, I think I have it right. And I even mentioned it. He is not calling it Genocide so he can cater to Muslims. You call it political consequences, I call it catering to Muslims.

I don't see how you come to that conclusion. Since this seems to have been in an issue for some time, through many different presidencies, can we safely assume that they were all trying to cater to Muslims? That doesn't seem reasonable to me.

The entire "Obama is a Muslim/Obama caters to Muslims" narrative is not one I like to inject in to conversations as it serves no purpose and is not rooted in any facts whatsoever. It is more of a talking point disseminated by those that oppose his political views.

This is why it matters.

I also share with Armenian Americans – so many of whom are descended from genocide survivors – a principled commitment to commemorating and ending genocide. That starts with acknowledging the tragic instances of genocide in world history. As a U.S. Senator, I have stood with the Armenian American community in calling for Turkey’s acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide. Two years ago, I criticized the Secretary of State for the firing of U.S. Ambassador to Armenia, John Evans, after he properly used the term “genocide” to describe Turkey’s slaughter of thousands of Armenians starting in 1915. I shared with Secretary Rice my firmly held conviction that the Armenian Genocide is not an allegation, a personal opinion, or a point of view, but rather a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence. The facts are undeniable. An official policy that calls on diplomats to distort the historical facts is an untenable policy. As a senator, I strongly support passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution (H.Res.106 and S.Res.106), and as President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
This is why it matters.

I also share with Armenian Americans – so many of whom are descended from genocide survivors – a principled commitment to commemorating and ending genocide. That starts with acknowledging the tragic instances of genocide in world history. As a U.S. Senator, I have stood with the Armenian American community in calling for Turkey’s acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide. Two years ago, I criticized the Secretary of State for the firing of U.S. Ambassador to Armenia, John Evans, after he properly used the term “genocide” to describe Turkey’s slaughter of thousands of Armenians starting in 1915. I shared with Secretary Rice my firmly held conviction that the Armenian Genocide is not an allegation, a personal opinion, or a point of view, but rather a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence. The facts are undeniable. An official policy that calls on diplomats to distort the historical facts is an untenable policy. As a senator, I strongly support passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution (H.Res.106 and S.Res.106), and as President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Exactly. As for your post Introvert, I don't know how it could be more obvious that Obama is catering to Muslims. I'm not going to point out the examples for you because you are biased and willfully remain ignorant. Obama could say "I will cater to Muslims" and it seems as if you still wouldn't believe it.

a reply to: Telos

en.wikipedia.org... can wikipedia plus History books plus also be wrong ?

Someone should let the Armenian Americans know that they are being used as a tool to further the hate propaganda about Obama.

The right has no shame when it comes to him..disgusting.

originally posted by: Onslaught2996
Someone should let the Armenian Americans know that they are being used as a tool

They already know. Obama made them promises to secure their votes, got them, and now won't make good. The Armenians are pissed off at Obama.

Negative reaction to the announcement was intense from both the Armenian-American community and members of Congress who have championed the Armenian cause.

I have literally lurked this website for 8 years... And I have never felt as strong an obligation to join as I have now.

First, thank you to everyone in this topic who has supported and explained this cause.

I am half Armenian. My own great grandparents on my mothers side fled to America because of this genocide. My grandparents' older siblings were born in Armenia... My great grandparents witnessed these atrocities. Their own families were slaughtered. At least one witnessed a pregnant woman having her stomach slashed open and her unborn baby ripped out.

I understand where people's confusion comes from. An argue of semantics, it seems. Why does it "matter" if Obama uses the 'G-Word"? We need Turkey as an ally, right?!! We can't piss them off.
Etc....
I realize people have addressed these questions. I may even be repeating what others have said. I don't have time to read all the replies at the moment.
The word genocide, calling it what it is... It matters.

Let's try this. I know the example of the Nazis and the Jews was used. That's a great comparison. It would cause OUTRAGE, rightfully, if the U.S. suddenly refused to call it a "holocaust" or "genocide" for political reasons. If Germany suddenly threatened other countries not to call it those words. If they denied that a systematic killing of Jews ever occured, and instead claimed all Jewish casualties were simply a consequence of war.
How about if your loved one was killed, murdered by someone. How about if the murderer's family referred to it as a manslaughter, an accident, when in reality it was a cold, calculated, pre-meditated murder. Not only that, they tortured your loved one, ridiculed her. That wouldn't be justice. Not at all.
My ancestors were tortured, humiliated, and slaughtered. Turkey wishes to eliminate the idea that it was a genocide. They wish to call it a necessary and unfortunate result of WW1. They wish to say that Armenians were disloyal and helped Russia attack Turkey.

Wanna know the crazy part? They did. After centuries of discrimination and treatment as 2nd class citizens without rights in the Ottoman Empire, a select, few amount of Armenians (20 years after, what I might add, was another slaughter of several hundred thousand Armenians by the orders of Sultan Hamid around 1894-1896 out of annoyance for their civil rights campaigns) aided the Russians.
That's what the Turks used as justification for the slaughter of up to 1.5 million Armenians--women and children included--in cities that were nowhere even close to the actions of a negligible amount of Armenian "traitors."
Armenians were crucified and mocked for their Christian Faith.. Forced to walk through the desert, sometimes naked, being taken somewhere to die in death camps. The ones who weren't shot or sliced open died from starvation, thirst, or disease in the blazing desert sun. Unborn were ripped from their mother's womb and placed into weeping, delirious mothers' hands so that they could see them while they bled to death. Babies were thrown against rocks in front of their mothers. Children watched their parents die, some set on fire in front of them. Women were raped in front of loved ones. Some were deemed too beautiful and forced to become wives of Turkish soldiers, or sex slaves. Turkish neighbors burned Armenian bodies to find swallowed gold (meant to hide from Turks) and ransacked homes, even stole insurance policies, to profit from the innocent deaths.

It is a "genocide" because that's what it was. Over 2 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire in 1915 (by that time, technically on the verge of being simply Turkey) reduced to 380,000 in 1922/1923. 3 in every 4 Armenians slaughtered. The survivors dramatically scarred by horrendous evil. Obama PROMISED to call it a genocide. Others have asked if any leaders had called it such. As others have said, 23 countries have. Organizations such as one committed to genocides have seemed it such. Germany, freaking GERMANY, post-nazi Germany for God's sake, acknowledged it as a genocide. When Germany, the Pope, and Kim Kardasian (and Kanye West) agree on an issue, the issue has some serious legs.
The final stage of genocide is denial. Now that the innocent lives have been slaughtered, the final stage seeks to eliminate the respect and memory of the victims. This is a genocide. Calling it such MATTERS.

My apologies for the SUPER LENGTHY, emotional post. I felt it was necessary. If you doubt any of what I said, I apologize that I did not cite sources. The info is readily available with a google search. Thank you!

a reply to: Achilles92x

I further my post to address more statements in this thread.

Introvert and other people on this thread seem to not quite understand things.

Turkey is a not necessary ally geopolitically... People have looked into this and seen that yes, while they are greatly positioned for Russia and the ME, our efforts could be done almost as easily with other allies. It's also important to note that they threatened France with the same strong-arm BS and NOTHING happened. It was all hot air.
They also, last time I checked, are not allowing air strikes on ISIS to be conducted by the U.S. from the U.S.'s key military base there. Obama's strategic avoidance of his campaign promise to gain a million Armenian votes isn't seeming to help.

People also seem to be ignoring the fact that Turkey doesn't want it to be called a 'genocide' because they KNOW, unlike some of you, that the word and WORDS have meaning. They deny that it was a systematic torture and annihilation of the Armenian Christian population (as well as, to a much lesser extent at the time, Christian Syrians and Greeks), and instead essentially state that any deaths were an accident, unintentional result of WW1 and the necessary relocation efforts of the Armenian population. They simultaneously claim that Armenians were being relocated because they were traitors, despite the fact that Armenian cities where "relocation" occurred were nowhere near the war front, AND despite the contemporary US ambassador writing the U.S. for aid in the "innocent and unprovoked slaughter of Armenians" as he shared descriptions of the consuls who wrote letters from cities all around the Ottoman territory describing the same horrific things (many of which I've written about but also more... All which happened to agree with Armenian eye witness testimonies).
Turkey educates their people on the basis that this was not a genocide and was not the pre-meditated, systematic genocide of up to 1.5 million Armenians who were already previously discriminated for centuries since the 15th century when Armenia was absorbed into the Ottoman Empire... They pay a fortune yearly for political groups to lobby against genocide recognition, and have even paid countries like Canada to keep the facts out of the country's textbooks.
You all keep saying "nobody is denying what happened" and "calling it a genocide doesn't change what happened" but you're wrong... Turkey is denying what happened and they want to convince everyone else otherwise too. If they succeed, it will change what happened in the sense that people will not know the real details. It's in the past, we only have history left...

a reply to: Achilles92x

Thanks Achilles92x.

Being a musician, my first thought in regards to this thread was, "Serj Tankian is gonna be pissed."

Politics - what people do when they're not thirsty.

originally posted by: TarzanBeta
a reply to: Achilles92x

Thanks Achilles92x.

Being a musician, my first thought in regards to this thread was, "Serj Tankian is gonna be pissed."

Politics - what people do when they're not thirsty.

Hey, thank you for your support on this issue!
I love System of a Down. When I found out they were Armenian, I was ecstatic. Thank God for Serj Tankian and the rest of SoaD! Without them, those of us with Armenian heritage would only have the Kardasians.
Speaking of people who would be pissed, God bless my grandparents, may they rest in peace. I'm happy they don't have to see this issue dragging on to this day!

originally posted by: Onslaught2996
Someone should let the Armenian Americans know that they are being used as a tool to further the hate propaganda about Obama.

The right has no shame when it comes to him..disgusting.

I would think they would be more upset that Obama refuses to call the massacre of their people a genocide just because Turkey is in denial and Obama doesn't want to "trigger" them like a feminist.

originally posted by: Achilles92x
a reply to: Achilles92x

I further my post to address more statements in this thread.

Introvert and other people on this thread seem to not quite understand things.

Turkey is a not necessary ally geopolitically... People have looked into this and seen that yes, while they are greatly positioned for Russia and the ME, our efforts could be done almost as easily with other allies. It's also important to note that they threatened France with the same strong-arm BS and NOTHING happened. It was all hot air.
They also, last time I checked, are not allowing air strikes on ISIS to be conducted by the U.S. from the U.S.'s key military base there. Obama's strategic avoidance of his campaign promise to gain a million Armenian votes isn't seeming to help.

People also seem to be ignoring the fact that Turkey doesn't want it to be called a 'genocide' because they KNOW, unlike some of you, that the word and WORDS have meaning. They deny that it was a systematic torture and annihilation of the Armenian Christian population (as well as, to a much lesser extent at the time, Christian Syrians and Greeks), and instead essentially state that any deaths were an accident, unintentional result of WW1 and the necessary relocation efforts of the Armenian population. They simultaneously claim that Armenians were being relocated because they were traitors, despite the fact that Armenian cities where "relocation" occurred were nowhere near the war front, AND despite the contemporary US ambassador writing the U.S. for aid in the "innocent and unprovoked slaughter of Armenians" as he shared descriptions of the consuls who wrote letters from cities all around the Ottoman territory describing the same horrific things (many of which I've written about but also more... All which happened to agree with Armenian eye witness testimonies).
Turkey educates their people on the basis that this was not a genocide and was not the pre-meditated, systematic genocide of up to 1.5 million Armenians who were already previously discriminated for centuries since the 15th century when Armenia was absorbed into the Ottoman Empire... They pay a fortune yearly for political groups to lobby against genocide recognition, and have even paid countries like Canada to keep the facts out of the country's textbooks.
You all keep saying "nobody is denying what happened" and "calling it a genocide doesn't change what happened" but you're wrong... Turkey is denying what happened and they want to convince everyone else otherwise too. If they succeed, it will change what happened in the sense that people will not know the real details. It's in the past, we only have history left...

Nailed it. Right on the head. Punctual and polite. Be careful, introvert and onslaught might report your post to the admins who will promptly delete it because it makes sense.

a reply to: chuck258

Nailed it. Right on the head. Punctual and polite. Be careful, introvert and onslaught might report your post to the admins who will promptly delete it because it makes sense.

What leads you to believe that I would report his/her post? Since I am new to ATS, you have not had the opportunity to converse with me to learn what sort of person I am. That being said, you assume too much.

Unlike many in life, I am willing to admit when I may be wrong or misinformed. I have no ego to protect so I am also willing to stand back, review new information and revise my position based on the new facts presented. Obviously, I need to do exactly that on this issue. I have no problem with that.

I kindly request in our future engagements that you approach me with the same respect I show to you and do not assume that I will take some sort of hateful action against those I may have disagreed with.

Also, what makes you think the mods would remove his post because it makes sense? That...doesn't make sense.

originally posted by: chuck258

I would think they would be more upset that Obama refuses to call the massacre of their people a genocide just because Turkey is in denial and Obama doesn't want to "trigger" them like a feminist.

LOL. "'Trigger' them like a feminist" cracked me up hard. Chuck, based on that comment, I think you and I are gonna get along justtttt fine on ATS. Thanks for your support on this issue and feedback on my post as well!

a reply to: introvert

I took what he said as intended to be humorous rather than offensive, but that's for him to clarify.

I hope what I said can lead you to potentially reconsider your stance on the issue.

EDIT: I just realized I've spelled "Kardashian" wrong several times, but I'm not even sorry

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: chuck258

Nailed it. Right on the head. Punctual and polite. Be careful, introvert and onslaught might report your post to the admins who will promptly delete it because it makes sense.

What leads you to believe that I would report his/her post? Since I am new to ATS, you have not had the opportunity to converse with me to learn what sort of person I am. That being said, you assume too much.

Unlike many in life, I am willing to admit when I may be wrong or misinformed. I have no ego to protect so I am also willing to stand back, review new information and revise my position based on the new facts presented. Obviously, I need to do exactly that on this issue. I have no problem with that.

I kindly request in our future engagements that you approach me with the same respect I show to you and do not assume that I will take some sort of hateful action against those I may have disagreed with.

Also, what makes you think the mods would remove his post because it makes sense? That...doesn't make sense.

Well, for one, I do not recall directly insulting you. I have been direct. I have suggested you might remain ignorant (or maybe that was Onslaught), but I have never insulted you.

Since you are new: Despite the Libs here on ATS claiming it is 'overrun' by bible bashing conservatives, Libs tend to be favored by the mods, or so it appears. I have had several posts deleted because they were controversial and I was, less than polite, but never insulting. There was also a hint of sarcasm in my post.

Perhaps someone can educate me and tell me why it even matters what Obama calls it.

Because right-wingers are insane and will do anything to attack Obama. It's like zoo monkeys that throw their own feces at people.

originally posted by: CB328

Perhaps someone can educate me and tell me why it even matters what Obama calls it.

Because right-wingers are insane and will do anything to attack Obama. It's like zoo monkeys that throw their own feces at people.

I'm not a "right winger". And I also think he needs to call it what it is. I voted for that man the first time around and then watched him use "words" and "spin" and " lies". And changing the meaning of words to tear this country a part.

Words matter. Whether you want to defend that wolf in sheeps clothing or not .

He knows exactly what he's doing.

The Armenian poster above summed it up, maybe you should read it