Barack Obama will not label 1915 massacre of Armenians a genocide

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: introvert

Also, as long as children are taught about the facts surrounding this event, why would it matter what it's called? Call it genocide, a halocaust or even mass extinction.

Because 'unpleasant event' doesn't really do it justice? Imagine if we called one event 'fun times at Auschwitz'.

Mass extinction? Really?

My point was that we are focusing on the political nature of deciding which word to use to describe the event(s). Why? What point does it serve? Why are there lobbyists in DC pushing for the use of the word "genocide"?

Because the Turks have a history of hatred towards several ethnic groups.

a reply to: butcherguy

Ok, and the president using the term "genocide" for something that occurred during WW1 changes that or helps somehow?

I'm still failing to see the purpose, other than purely political.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: butcherguy

Ok, and the president using the term "genocide" for something that occurred during WW1 changes that or helps somehow?

I'm still failing to see the purpose, other than purely political.

The Turks still hate the various ethnic groups and support them being killed, as in the Kurds fighting against ISIS. The Turks refuse to aid people fighting ISIS.

a reply to: butcherguy

If that's the case, shouldn't we be more outraged that we are allies with Turkey, than the non-use of the word genocide?

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: butcherguy

Ok, and the president using the term "genocide" for something that occurred during WW1 changes that or helps somehow?

I'm still failing to see the purpose, other than purely political.

well he did go around apologizing for American transgressions, what difference did that make at this point, if you are going to look at it that way.

a reply to: Telos

This must be referring to the Armenian "Lots of population systematically killed for being Armenian." Glad it turns out it wasn't a genocide after all!

I had great grandparents who emigrated to the US not long before this happened and am happy they escaped the Armenian lots of population systematically killed for being Armenian event.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: butcherguy

If that's the case, shouldn't we be more outraged that we are allies with Turkey, than the non-use of the word genocide?

It would be up to Obama to cool relations with Turkey.
He managed to do it with Israel, so Turkey shouldn't be a problem.
One easy thing to get that ball rolling would be to call the genocide a genocide.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: butcherguy

Ok, and the president using the term "genocide" for something that occurred during WW1 changes that or helps somehow?

I'm still failing to see the purpose, other than purely political.

You're using a faulty logic my friend. You did avoid a simple question I asked you, what if what happened to Jewish people during WWII is not called genocide anymore? What would happen? And you skipped the answer to that. In that contest, again I'm asking you, 24 from now is going to be 100 years of the start of WWII. Should we then stop coining Nazis atrocities toward Jewish people as genocide because is been so long now and who cares for the term?

And yes, it does help because terminology is what defines a meaning.If the word to describe mass murder, extermination of a ethnic group, killing millions because of their race, ethnicity etc is by definition called GENOCIDE, that's what you use. I cannot call it massacre because is much more than that. I cannot call it slaying because is much more than that.


English dictionary:

gen·o·cide (jĕn′ə-sīd′)

n.
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.

As for the example you brought here about Reagan, I stick to my previous comment. You asked me to prove who other than Obama has spoken about armenin genocide and I brought Reagan as an example, including his speech. If that guy changed after what he already said, I don't think is important. Tomorrow Obama might change something that he already said in the past. But historically, what he said, remain recorded.

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
a reply to: Telos

ill wait i have all day .

I was being sarcastic....

Somebody has to defend the accused , therefore I must .

Let's ask some pertinent questions before pointing fingers at Turks .

"If there’s something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action."
Thomas Jefferson, U.S. Declaration of Independence, as paraphrased* by Nicolas Cage's character in the film, NATIONAL TREASURE.
In other words, it is the duty of honorable and truthful parties (particularly legitimate historians and journalists) to right the racist harm caused by deceptive Armenian propaganda (also bearing in mind the words of Andrew Jackson, regarding the unscrupulous activist Armenians and their "genocide scholar" allies:

"You are a den of vipers and thieves and I intend to rout you out, and by the eternal God, I will rout you out.").

(*Jefferson's words: "“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation" Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandean, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun."

(Alternately known as "History of the A.R.Federation" ["H. H. Dashnaktsutyan Patmutiwn," Paris,1932 and Cairo,1950]. The author [1874-1934] has other works, including "L'Arménie et la Question Arménienne," noted in the library as "Delegation propaganda authenticated by the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference, 1919"])

"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this.

The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did.

I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."

A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. (Highly deceptive Armenian activists on the Internet are spreading rumors there is no Lalayan. The above quote has been confirmed.

Lalaian was an Armenian Soviet historian and the Dashnag report above was first published in issue 2-3 of the magazine, Revolyutsionniy Vostok and then in issue 2 of Istoricheskie Zapisky, the organ of the USSR Academy of Sciences, Institute of History, The above quote is from a proud Dashnag officer, Aslem Varaam, in the report he wrote from the Beyazit-Vaaram region in 1920, Updated translation::

“I exterminated the Turkish population in Bashar-Gechar without making any exceptions. One sometimes feels the bullets shouldn’t be wasted.

So, the most effective way against these dogs is to collect the people who have survived the clashes and dump them in deep holes and crush them under heavy rocks pressed from above, not to let them inhabit this world any longer. So I did accordingly.

I collected all the women, men and children and extinguished their lives in the deep holes I dumped them into, crushing them with rocks.”)

"When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off...

There were bodies everywhere.

We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door.

That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded.

The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation.

I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it.

We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself.” Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.

"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van" The Gochnag, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van. (Holdwater: this Internet quote needs to be verified. The date is wrong; the closest issues for the weekly are from May 22 and May 29. The origin evidently was a 1982 publication from Ankara's Institute of Foreign Policy, entitled "Ermeni Sorunu [Armenian Question], 9 soru 9 cevap," page 23. Guenter Lewy states on p. 98 of his 2005 "Disputed Genocide" book that 3,000 Muslims were left in Van.)

"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of 1914-15-16." Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Muslim) villages that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village." Admiral Mark Bristol, Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32: Bristol to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

"The Moslems who did not succeed in escaping [the city] were put to death..." Grace H. Knapp, The Tragedy of Bitlis, Fleming H. Revell Co., New York (1919) , page 146.

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars (Turks), and then proceeded in the work of extermination.
Our troops surrounded village after village. Little resistance was offered.

Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stones and dust, and when the villages became untenable and the inhabitants fled from them into the fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work." Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.

"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center.
These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes.
There are other bodies around the city." Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.

"There is little news from the interior save that the Russians have entered Van. The contingent is mostly composed of Armenian volunteers who fight with desperate courage, but whose excesses have shocked even the Russian commanders." Lewis Einstein, "Inside Constantinople – A [Diplomat's] Diary During the Dardanelles Expedition, April-September, 1915,". 1917, p. 68; John Murray, London. The book is a daily recording of what Einstein saw, heard, received and possibly imagined with cleverly inserted passages on the Armenian massacres. Curiously, Ambassador Morgenthau is not mentioned at all.

Does anyone care what Obama thinks? I just want him gone.

"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks." Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.

"In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul." Sahak Melkonian, Preserving the Armenian Purity, 1920

"Literally Tzeghagron means 'to make a religion of one’s race.' Patterned after the Nazi Youth It was also called Racial Patriots.
Nejdeh wrote: 'The Racial Religious believes in his racial blood as a deity. Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first. Everything is for the race.' In the April 10, 1936, issue of Hairenik Weekly,

Nejdeh stated: 'Today Germany and Italy are strong because as a nation they live and breathe in terms of race.' From Racial Patriots and Tzeghagrons, the name of the [Boston] Dashnag youth group was later changed to Armenian Youth Federation, or the AYF, as it is currently known."

John Roy Carlson, a.k.a. Arto Derounian, "The Armenian Displaced Persons," Armenian Affairs, 1949-50, p. 19. A beautiful description of fanatically racist Armenian minds in today's Internet forums, proudly carrying on the tradition of Hitleresque racial superiority.

This ability to distinguish Armenian "purity" from sub-human Muslims and Jews is what helped enable so many Armenians to commit mass murder.

"Since all the able Moslem men were in the army, it was easy for the Armenians to begin a horrible slaughter of the defenseless Moslem inhabitants in the area. They ... simply cleaned out the Moslem inhabitants in those areas. They performed gruesome deeds, of which I, as an eye witness honestly say that they were much worse than what Turks have been accused of as an Armenian atrocity." General Bronsart von Schellendorf , "A Witness for Talat Pasha," Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921

"True friendship among Armenians is a rare thing indeed..." — "...Hatred and envy: they seem to come naturally to us..." Ara Baliozian, Armenian writer; (Source)
"Every Armenian has another Armenian whom he considers his mortal enemy."
"An Armenian's worst enemies are not odars but Armenians." ("Odars" : foreigners)
"Our perpetual enemy — the enemy that will eventually destroy us — is not the Turk but our own complacent superficiality."
"What kind of people are we?... Instead of reason, blind instinct. Instead of common sense, fanaticism." ". . . Our past is filled with countless instances of betrayal and treachery.. ." Various Armenian writers, quoted by Ara Baliozian (Source)

There is more about this , go here to read other quotes : Alleged Genocide - Turk's side of the (hi)story

My own opinion on this subject is rather clear .

Armenians , amongs other nations , have suffered a lot .

Smart Armenians also know the long term co-existence with Turks is the only way forward .

Armenians joined with Turks voluntarly and lived side by side with Turks over 800 years .

In fact amongs all the other nations which the Ottoman's were made up of ; Only the Armenians carried the title of Millet-i Sadika , Most Trustworthy Nation of all Ottoman nations . ( 36 of them )


The Genocide angle is being played for 2 reasons ;

1 - Money & Land . In other words Armenians want compensation for their dead and they want return of their own propeties . ( This is an understandable request since these Armenians lost their souls in Anatolia ; it is only fair that they should get a remedy .)

2 - The Great Game .



According to some wet dreamers , when Turks busy fighting the Syrian war in near future , the Greeks from the west and Armenians from the east will attack Turks . Therefore the Turks will be fighting a 3 front war , in Mesopotamia , Caucasia and Balkans .


One last word ; If this is a genocide then the same criteria must apply to ALL Ottomans , not just Armenians .

a reply to: LOSTinAMERICA
So true. And your avatar reminds me of a song that would sum up the last >6 years...Welcome to my Nightmare.

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: butcherguy

Ok, and the president using the term "genocide" for something that occurred during WW1 changes that or helps somehow?

I'm still failing to see the purpose, other than purely political.

The Turks still hate the various ethnic groups and support them being killed, as in the Kurds fighting against ISIS. The Turks refuse to aid people fighting ISIS.

There may be more to the story, than meets the eye

Ancient hatred of one group for another, without real cause, well, other than god telling them its okay..

Found this while looking for information on the Armenians and Turks. Not all Turks are involved in this hatred. Only a select few ruling, guiding families.

For many centuries, Jews have been fomenting wars of extermination and genocidal revolutions in the nations of the world.They have desperately and successfully sought to bring England, Russia and the Turkish Empire into world war. Jews have weakened all of the major powers through war and debt in order to dissolve them
through revolution and replace them with pan-Jewish Empires, as happened with the Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Turkish Empire, the Soviet Empire and the Nazi Empire.Jewish leaders employ many means to destroy Gentile nations. They foment wars in order weaken societies and bring them into debt and physical ruin. They conduct strikes and defame leaders and governments in order to weaken societies and in order drive a wedge between Peoples and their governments. Jewish leaders artificially created the Crimean Wars, the Balkan Wars and the World Wars in order to wrest Palestine from the Turkish Empire, destroy
the Slavs and Moslems,and discredit Gentile government to the point where Gentiles would welcome a Jewish-ruled world government which promised peace in ex change for the loss of national sovereign-ties. Jews then mass murdered Gentiles in the pan-Jewish Empires the Jews created for themselves in the Turkish Empire, the Soviet Empire and the Communist Chinese Régime.

Jews have wanted to exterminate the Armenians for a very long time. Jews are taught that God commands them to kill every man, woman and child of the Jews’ most ancient “racial” enemy, the Amalekites, whom the Jews claim descended from the mythical character Esau, and ultimately Cain, and who are said to have spawned the mythical character Haman and ultimately the Armenians. Jews believe that the Armeniansare the Amalekites—the perpetual genetic enemy of the Jews, and that if the Jews fail to kill off every last Armenian—to blot out every last trace of Armenian blood—God will kill off the Jews.

CHRISTOPHER JON BJERKNES THE JEWISH GENOCIDE OF ARMENIAN CHRISTIANS

But they really are not Jews......

originally posted by: here4this
a reply to: LOSTinAMERICA
So true. And your avatar reminds me of a song that would sum up the last >6 years...Welcome to my Nightmare.

Let's hope this is the case.

a reply to: if it was labeled as a genocide wouldnt the international community be forced to respond in some way?

originally posted by: KingKelson
a reply to: if it was labeled as a genocide wouldnt the international community be forced to respond in some way?

He is forcing a debate on a world stage. He might be the devil.

It's a pity that The Turkish government themselves can't respond in a humanitarian fashion and say bad deeds were done and lift themselves above the deeds of a cruel government in their past, and make it known things like that should never happen again...better, will never happen again. Notwithstanding that, there are few countries who have not performed the same actions in the distant past, and some in the recent past. However the word Genocide was aptly first given by Raphael Lemkin in the 1940's and stemmed by this same action and others. The rationale for the word was also given and applies equally to what was done before or since from whatever quarter intellectually. It is also one of the first heads up, words to make ordinary people aware of what goes on in warfare and government machinations, and not simply a conflict where ordinary people get hurt.