Misunderstood Sleep Paralysis And Astral Projection

originally posted by: In4ormant

originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: In4ormant

I won't get into the Absence of Evidence argument with you. little late in the day to go down that rabbit hole. I don't deny that people are experiencing things, I question their ability to reconcile its reality while in an altered state.

Yes it was just a side point, since we're concerned with truth here. Otherwise I agree with you.

If we were to examine someone while they were visiting an astral plane, we'd find that they are still sleeping soundly, not visiting anything and not going anywhere. If they do not admit this aspect of these states of affairs, and assert that they are not laying in bed, but visiting some other realm, they must contradict themselves to do so. It's painfully obvious this astral plane is an imaginary place.

You think the fact that your physical body would be laying in bed 'obviously' disproves astral projection? That's equivalent to saying astral projection disproves astral projection, which is circular and has the conclusion built into the premise...astral projection is by definition traveling outside of your physical body, thus your physical body would of course be lying there, as before.

Then take me up on the test I suggested.

I already said I have only astral projected one time, and the time I did all I did was travel around my actual location...I can't just astral project at will and connect with other people astral projecting and exchange information...I myself do not truly know the nature of the astral realm, you obviously don't either, having no experience, and yet you're imposing standards that rest on the premise that you understand what astral projection and the astral realm is, when you don't.

a reply to: Visitor2012

If someone says you're body is asleep. That speaks all about yours and says nothing about you.

So you don't go to sleep when you go to sleep? It's nonsensical.

originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: In4ormant

originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: In4ormant

I won't get into the Absence of Evidence argument with you. little late in the day to go down that rabbit hole. I don't deny that people are experiencing things, I question their ability to reconcile its reality while in an altered state.

Yes it was just a side point, since we're concerned with truth here. Otherwise I agree with you.

If we were to examine someone while they were visiting an astral plane, we'd find that they are still sleeping soundly, not visiting anything and not going anywhere. If they do not admit this aspect of these states of affairs, and assert that they are not laying in bed, but visiting some other realm, they must contradict themselves to do so. It's painfully obvious this astral plane is an imaginary place.

You think the fact that your physical body would be laying in bed 'obviously' disproves astral projection? That's equivalent to saying astral projection disproves astral projection, which is circular and has the conclusion built into the premise...astral projection is by definition traveling outside of your physical body, thus your physical body would of course be lying there, as before.

Then take me up on the test I suggested.

I already said I have only astral projected one time, and the time I did all I did was travel around my actual location...I can't just astral project at will and connect with other people astral projecting and exchange information...I myself do not truly know the nature of the astral realm, you obviously don't either, having no experience, and yet you're imposing standards that rest on the premise that you understand what astral projection and the astral realm is, when you don't.

If not you then the many others that do claim they do it at will and have done it X amount of times can step up.

a reply to: TheJourney

I already said I have only astral projected one time, and the time I did all I did was travel around my actual location...I can't just astral project at will and connect with other people astral projecting and exchange information...I myself do not truly know the nature of the astral realm, you obviously don't either, having no experience, and yet you're imposing standards that rest on the premise that you understand what astral projection and the astral realm is, when you don't.

Curious question. What's the difference between an astral world, a dream world, and an imaginary one?

a reply to: In4ormant

Your sharing it with me ATM. Can he say the same of his?

Neither one can. So if you can't reconcile your current reality with your so called 'un altered' state of mind (whatever that means), does that refute the truth and validity of your current experience?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Now I am going to answer this, are we something other than our physical body, yes we are.

Take quantum theory about parrallel reality's and alternative reality's, do not confuse the two a parrallel reality is another reality beside our own that is maybe identical or maybe utterly different, a alternative reality is by definition something very similar but has a branching in its time stream that means it is actually another BRANCHING reality that is still connected to our own at an earlier point in time, the difference is subtle but absolute.

Now take a photon, a particle or wave of light, it is emited and out observation regards it as a particulate form or energy but here is the crux it behaves also as a waveform.

So they take this theory about quantum states and observation, well it turns out that observation or the conscious mind has an effect on the quantum state or reality, when observed a photon behaves as a particle but when not observed it behaves as a wave form.

Confused, join the club.

They took this test called the apperture slit test, it is ancient and yet proves a point, they spit a photon through a prism sending one half down one path with a board at the end and the other down a parrallel path with a board that has a slit in it at the end, now at the end of these two path's that run side by side is a photographic plate and you would expect to get half an interferance pattern, the wave form effect the light creates like semi circles or ripples in a ring shape but no you get the full interferance pattern as though the light was not split, how is this possible, they postulate that light being neither really matter nor simply energy can pass between close parrallel reality's and in one of these close parrallel reality's the photon passes through the opposite board to this reality and in that reality the researcer set the slit in the opposite side.

Strange well get into physics and look up spook physics, quantum mechanic's and quantum theory, quantum entanglement and schroedingers cat in the box, heisenbourgs uncertainty principle and chaos theory and then you will find spiritual mechanic's can fill a hell of a lot of unexplained blank's in the current model of physic's.

Do you exist or are you an illusion, is the universe real or just a projection, how many senses do you have and are you aware that you are actually blind to the majority even of the linear universe, you can feel hardly anything, you hear (which is just feeling after all of are compression and refraction) very little, you smell very little, you know very little.

Indeed on what presumption do we with so small a grasp even of our own reality that extend's so far beyond our ability to know or even reason actually build our view of the world, only on commonality and a unified accepted view and those with a different view are by some seen as a threat to there own reality as they do not want there beliefs to be real or to have any merit especially when it threaten's to undermine the reality they think they know.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TheJourney

I already said I have only astral projected one time, and the time I did all I did was travel around my actual location...I can't just astral project at will and connect with other people astral projecting and exchange information...I myself do not truly know the nature of the astral realm, you obviously don't either, having no experience, and yet you're imposing standards that rest on the premise that you understand what astral projection and the astral realm is, when you don't.

Curious question. What's the difference between an astral world, a dream world, and an imaginary one?

Now that is an interesting philosophical debate, a astral world is definitely not consciousle created and appears real but so too does an unconscious dream with the difference you are not in control, a lucid dream shifts at your will and imagination is consciousle projected within the mind of the experiencer though it is sometime's stimulated from without such as when reading a good book.

originally posted by: Visitor2012
a reply to: In4ormant

Your sharing it with me ATM. Can he say the same of his?

Neither one can. So if you can't reconcile your current reality with your so called 'un altered' state of mind (whatever that means), does that refute that truth and validity of your current experience?

I can reconcile it by the exchange of information between two or more participants within "my" reality, and the fact that such exchanges can be observed and confirmed by others. All I'm asking is for two of these people to do the same within this astral reality they say exists. I'm not requiring any more burden than I am willing to provide.

a reply to: LABTECH767

I could care less about quantum mechanics unless it's building me a better laser. Let me know when you start talking about the body, and how you aren't it.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TheJourney

I already said I have only astral projected one time, and the time I did all I did was travel around my actual location...I can't just astral project at will and connect with other people astral projecting and exchange information...I myself do not truly know the nature of the astral realm, you obviously don't either, having no experience, and yet you're imposing standards that rest on the premise that you understand what astral projection and the astral realm is, when you don't.

Curious question. What's the difference between an astral world, a dream world, and an imaginary one?

I believe the difference between the three examples you give, AND the physical reality, is more tenuous and less understood than we think. If I had to try to say now, I would say 'imagination' is internal content projected outwards from the context of your physical and conscious self. Dreams are projections within, and the self-activity of, deeper and more subtle layers of your being. Astral projection is the interaction of these deeper and more subtle aspects of your being with deeper and more subtle aspects of the external reality, just as 'normal reality' is the interaction of our surface self with the surface external reality.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Now I am going to answer this, are we something other than our physical body, yes we are.

Take quantum theory about parrallel reality's and alternative reality's, do not confuse the two a parrallel reality is another reality beside our own that is maybe identical or maybe utterly different, a alternative reality is by definition something very similar but has a branching in its time stream that means it is actually another BRANCHING reality that is still connected to our own at an earlier point in time, the difference is subtle but absolute.

Now take a photon, a particle or wave of light, it is emited and out observation regards it as a particulate form or energy but here is the crux it behaves also as a waveform.

So they take this theory about quantum states and observation, well it turns out that observation or the conscious mind has an effect on the quantum state or reality, when observed a photon behaves as a particle but when not observed it behaves as a wave form.

Confused, join the club.

They took this test called the apperture slit test, it is ancient and yet proves a point, they spit a photon through a prism sending one half down one path with a board at the end and the other down a parrallel path with a board that has a slit in it at the end, now at the end of these two path's that run side by side is a photographic plate and you would expect to get half an interferance pattern, the wave form effect the light creates like semi circles or ripples in a ring shape but no you get the full interferance pattern as though the light was not split, how is this possible, they postulate that light being neither really matter nor simply energy can pass between close parrallel reality's and in one of these close parrallel reality's the photon passes through the opposite board to this reality and in that reality the researcer set the slit in the opposite side.

Strange well get into physics and look up spook physics, quantum mechanic's and quantum theory, quantum entanglement and schroedingers cat in the box, heisenbourgs uncertainty principle and chaos theory and then you will find spiritual mechanic's can fill a hell of a lot of unexplained blank's in the current model of physic's.

Do you exist or are you an illusion, is the universe real or just a projection, how many senses do you have and are you aware that you are actually blind to the majority even of the linear universe, you can feel hardly anything, you hear (which is just feeling after all of are compression and refraction) very little, you smell very little, you know very little.

Indeed on what presumption do we with so small a grasp even of our own reality that extend's so far beyond our ability to know or even reason actually build our view of the world, only on commonality and a unified accepted view and those with a different view are by some seen as a threat to there own reality as they do not want there beliefs to be real or to have any merit especially when it threaten's to undermine the reality they think they know.

So, every thing we don't understand could be a function of QM?

Come on. Are you really even a lab tech?

Thats no better than the god of the gaps notion. You're are just replacing it with QM. And you are still making unfounded claims with nothing to back it up.

Somebody astral project already!!

Tell me what's in the envelope on my dresser.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

So you don't go to sleep when you go to sleep? It's nonsensical.

Again, you're identifying yourself with that which belongs to you. Otherwise, why say 'my body' if the body is the totality of you? The same applies with 'your mind', 'your spirit'....very few consider who then is the one YOUR refers to. So by assuming that your essential and core self is the same as that which belongs to you, the instrument of the mind/body itself, you make the classic assumption that your body going to sleep is the same as YOU going to sleep. This is a falsity.

Being physically asleep is not the same as YOU being asleep. Or no longer being consciously aware. This isn't advanced knowledge here. When you're body goes to sleep at night and a dream occurs, you are the one watching it, and perceiving it. Who else is doing that? According to your argument, this dream could never be witnessed.

To anyone who is really interested in truth than no proof will suffice. Even if somebody would somehow manage to pass some kind of test present here, then what? Is this really good enough for you or for anybody else? .. It is just an egoistic request which will proof nothing! Most sceptics will still be blinded and never satisfied until some kind of experience. Just do it yourself!

I don't know why it is so hard to believe in your own unique and brilliant being ...that we all are!

And just to clarify something. I tried some hallucinogenic drugs and the experience is totally different! When the mind is totally clean while in the astral than you get everything with total clarity. I mean my mind was still, like during meditation and I had total control over my actions. Drugs can do many things but certainly not that!

originally posted by: Visitor2012
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

So you don't go to sleep when you go to sleep? It's nonsensical.

Again, you're identifying yourself with that which belongs to you. Otherwise, why say 'my body' if the body is the totality of you? The same applies with 'your mind', 'your spirit'....very few consider who then is the one YOUR refers to. So by assuming that your essential and core self is the same as that which belongs to you, the instrument of the mind/body itself, you make the classic assumption that your body going to sleep is the same as YOU going to sleep. This is a falsity.

Being physically asleep is not the same as YOU being asleep. Or no longer being consciously aware. This isn't advanced knowledge here. When you're body goes to sleep at night and a dream occurs, you are the one watching it, and perceiving it. Who else is doing that? According to your argument, this dream could never be witnessed.

Can we just get 1 question and answer exchange between two of these people while their bodies are under lab conditions. Then we can stop all the tossing around of theories and conjecture and circular arguments regarding self and quantum mechanics and the nature of reality? When are all you proclaimers gonna put up or shut up?

originally posted by: UniFinity
To anyone who is really interested in truth than no proof will suffice. Even if somebody would somehow manage to pass some kind of test present here, then what? Is this really good enough for you or for anybody else? .. It is just an egoistic request which will proof nothing! Most sceptics will still be blinded and never satisfied until some kind of experience. Just do it yourself!

I don't know why it is so hard to believe in your own unique and brilliant being ...that we all are!

And just to clarify something. I tried some hallucinogenic drugs and the experience is totally different! When the mind is totally clean while in the astral than you get everything with total clarity. I mean my mind was still, like during meditation and I had total control over my actions. Drugs can do many things but certainly not that!

I think the saying goes "when you come to your conclusions with no proof then your not interested in the real proof. "

So now your saying that you won't prove it because we won't believe you?

I can def think of a test that will convince me so don't anybody be shy. Any takers?

a reply to: UniFinity

a reply to: Woodcarver

Again. Its reaching a conclusion based on a preconceived belief.

They don't believe I will trust the result so they aren't willing to provide it.

Another circular argument that conveniently leaves them an out.

And they wonder why no one takes them seriously

originally posted by: Woodcarver
I can def think of a test that will convince me so don't anybody be shy. Any takers?


a reply to: UniFinity

I provided one. No one jumped

a reply to: TheJourney

I believe the difference between the three examples you give, AND the physical reality, is more tenuous and less understood than we think. If I had to try to say now, I would say 'imagination' is internal content projected outwards from the context of your physical and conscious self. Dreams are projections within, and the self-activity of, deeper and more subtle layers of your being. Astral projection is the interaction of these deeper and more subtle aspects of your being with deeper and more subtle aspects of the external reality, just as 'normal reality' is the interaction of our surface self with the surface external reality.

That's a start. Philosophically these distinctions are highly problematic, but I think if you worked on them are were able to distinguish astral planes from more mundane mental imagery, you might be able to have some convincing arguments on your side. But, so far I cannot see any difference except for varying degrees of intensity and vividness. We know that people can confuse dreams with reality, and this poses a difficulty for those that assert such places exist.

a reply to: Visitor2012

Again, you're identifying yourself with that which belongs to you. Otherwise, why say 'my body' if the body is the totality of you? The same applies with 'your mind', 'your spirit'....very few consider who then is the one YOUR refers to. So by assuming that your essential and core self is the same as that which belongs to you, the instrument of the mind/body itself, you make the classic assumption that your body going to sleep is the same as YOU going to sleep. This is a falsity.

Being physically asleep is not the same as YOU being asleep. Or no longer being consciously aware. This isn't advanced knowledge here. When you're body goes to sleep at night and a dream occurs, you are the one watching it, and perceiving it. Who else is doing that? According to your argument, this dream could never be witnessed.

And you're identifying yourself with nothing at all. Peel away the body until we arrive at "you", what would be left?

Actually it is not an assumption to say I am a body, as all evidence shows this. It is an assumption and a fallacy (homunculus fallacy) to say otherwise, especially when based on nothing but specious reasoning.