Can anyone name a religion that DOESNT believe in reincarnation?

a reply to: artistpoet
To be exact, this thread is about whether various religions do or do not believe in reincarnation.
My reply to Schuyler was part of demonstrating that the Christian faith does not.

Those people were "branded as heretics" because they were recognised as introducing novel speculations which departed from the original beliefs of the church. They were the equivalent of the ATS Hoax Bin.
At some time in the future, somebody is going to "rediscover" the ATS Hoax Bin, and hail it as the suppressed real history of our times.

So... When Jesus returns.... Hes going to come down on a golden chariot flanked by naked horn blowing cherubs from the clouds.... And not out of a woman's body as he came the first time through Mary... Have I got that right?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: schuyler
Yes, and what happened to Jesus is understood to be resurrection, not reincarnation.
Did you notice my explanation of the difference?
In the Christian concept of resurrection there is no "second physical body" involved. Therefore it is not reincarnation.

Uh, no.

I don't accept your explanation. The "Resurrection" refers to Jesus arising from the dead shortly after his crucifixion and "rising into Heaven." The rock was rolled back from the cave. Several people say they saw him and he spoke to him, Thomas stuck his hand in the wound caused by the Centurion, therefore it was the same body brought back to life. THEN Jesus rose to Heaven. Yadda Yadda goes the story. This is a very standard explanation of the Resurrection. In fact, I have never heard of the Resurrection being described as anything different in any Blblical text or explanation of a Biblical text.

The Second Coming is ENTIRELY different and, according to most Christians at least, hasn't happened yet. That was SUPPOSED to happen within Paul's lifetime, according to Paul. It did not. we're still waiting. Christianity is based on the idea that Jesus shall return.

Don't confuse "The Resurrection" with "The Second Coming." The first is what it is. The second is reincarnation.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Origen was NOT equivalent to the ATS HOAX BIN! His writings were accepted and used to defend and disseminate Christianity. Even though his teachings on reincarnation were finally judged heretical, it wasn't until much later in Christian history that Christian fathers decided to ban the philosophy.

There are plenty of Christians today who are able to incorporate reincarnation into their beliefs without blasphemy.

originally posted by: windword
Inconveniently, that's not what Jesus said. He said that John the Baptist IS Elijah!

I responded to that point with another poster.

St Gregory stated:
"...But since there is a necessity that the defilements which sin has engendered in the soul as well should be removed thence by some remedial process, the medicine which virtue supplies has, in the life that now is, been applied to the healing of such mutilations as these. If, however, the soul remains unhealed, the remedy is dispensed in the life that follows this.." – Great Catechism.

Pope Gregory will not have been talking about a second physical body.
The New Testament and the church following the New Testament teaches about a "life to come" in the form of a resurrected body, and that's exactly what the Pope has in mind.

Not only that...the doctrine of reincarnation wasn't forbidden by "The Church" until the 6th century

But the deduction that it was accepted by the church up to that point is based on a false premise- "Everything is accepted until it is explicitly condemned".
The action in the sixth century does not mark the first time the church disagreed with the teaching.
It marks the moment when they needed to do something about it, because part of the church was picking it up and it was becoming a pastoral issue.

Anyway, that argument clashes with the suggestions by other posters about reincarnation being "suppressed" at a much earlier stage.
If the church was accepting reincarnation teaching at that early period, they would not have been attempting to suppress it.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Answer this, will Jesus be born a second time from a mothers womb?

If the answer according to scripture is yes, then that IS reincarnation. End of story.

If the answer is no, he's according to scripture supposed to return on a golden chariot from the clouds then fine I agree that that is NOT reincarnation...

originally posted by: schuyler
I don't accept your explanation. The "Resurrection" refers to Jesus arising from the dead shortly after his crucifixion and "rising into Heaven." The rock was rolled back from the cave. Several people say they saw him and he spoke to him, Thomas stuck his hand in the wound caused by the Centurion, therefore it was the same body brought back to life. THEN Jesus rose to Heaven. Yadda Yadda goes the story. This is a very standard explanation of the Resurrection. In fact, I have never heard of the Resurrection being described as anything different in any Blblical text or explanation of a Biblical text.

The Second Coming is ENTIRELY different and, according to most Christians at least, hasn't happened yet.
Don't confuse "The Resurrection" with "The Second Coming." The first is what it is. The second is reincarnation.

I am not confusing resurrection with second coming.
YOU are making the assumption, quite unnecessarily, that Jesus has somehow lost his resurrection body.
The implication of the New Testament, as outlined in Matthew ch24, is that he "returns" from heaven, "in the glory of the Father", in the same body in which he left. No second body needed.

Yes, there seems to be a loose idea in some circles that the Second Coming will take the form of a reincarnation, but that's only amongst people who are a little vague on the New Testament teaching. When they post speculations like that on this site,some of us try to put them right.
PS Now you can compare my answer just below this one.

originally posted by: funkadeliaaaa
Answer this, will Jesus be born a second time from a mothers womb?
If the answer according to scripture is yes, then that IS reincarnation. End of story.
If the answer is no, he's according to scripture supposed to return on a golden chariot from the clouds then fine, that's I agree that's is NOT reincarnation...

The answer to your question is a resounding NO.
That speculation is a popular misunderstanding based on insufficient reading of the New Testament.

PS. Sorry, I've only just noticed that you had to ask that question twice.
A very busy time.

a reply to: DISRAELI

But the deduction that it was accepted by the church up to that point is based on a false premise- "Everythng is accepted until it is explicitly condemned".
The action in the sixth century does not mark the first time the church disagreed with the teaching.

500 years of incorporating Paganism into the church and you think reincarnation just got missed? Do you have any idea the amount of destruction that Christianity did to make sure that everyone believed the "correct" thing?

(All dates "era vulgaris" = Christian Era)

314
Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324
Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. At Dydima, Asia Minor, he sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He also evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

326
Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.

330
Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

335
Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

341
Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346
New large - scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as... "magician".

353
An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and "idols".

354
A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

356
A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters".

357
Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

359
In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

361 to 363
Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

363
Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

364
Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, even private ones.

365
An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army to command christian soldiers.

370
Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Pagans, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of cities of the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

372
Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.

373
New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term "Pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the christians to lessen the Gentiles.

375
The Temple of God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.

380
On 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". Non-christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe in the christian god and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

MORE HERE

It marks the moment when they needed to do something about it, because part of the church was picking it up and it was becoming a pastoral issue.

Reincarnation is intrinsic to Christianity! The only reason it was banned was because of the decree of Emperor Justinian. The church embraced the ban because too many people remembering when they "weren't slaves" became problematic.

a reply to: windword
The only way you have been able to find reincarnation in fathers other than Origen is by misunderstanding what they say about resurrection life.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I responded to that point with another poster.

No. I don't think you did!

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: windword
The only way you have been able to find reincarnation in fathers other than Origen is by misunderstanding what they say about resurrection life.

The Nazorites and the Essene taught reincarnation. Many early texts reveal that there was a strong belief in reincarnation in the early Christian Community. The Nag Hammadi bears witness to this. All this besides the fact that Jews believed in reincarnation and Jesus was supposedly Jewish and the New Testament is rife with reincarnation innuendo.

originally posted by: windword
The Nazorites and the Essene taught reincarnation. Many early texts reveal that there was a strong belief in reincarnation in the early Christian Community. The Nag Hammadi bears witness to this. All this besides the fact that Jews believed in reincarnation and Jesus was supposedly Jewish and the New Testament is rife with reincarnation innuendo.

Yes, from the very earliest days there were people speculating on their own account, and introducing variations from the original teaching.
There are complaints about that happening even within the New Testament.
They included, of course, the people John designated as "antichrists".

You can insist on reviving the Hoax Bin, but I'm not going to regard its contents as representative of Christian teaching.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Yes, from the very earliest days there were people speculating on their own account, and introducing variations from the original teaching.

It's hardly speculation. The rationale of reincarnation in early Christianity can be traced to Pythagoras and Plato. Its found in the Old and New Testaments.

There are complaints about that happening even within the New Testament.
They included, of course, the people John designated as "antichrists".

I'm not sure that Johns definition of "antichrist" includes all the endless tweaking of the Christian doctrine to fit with the sensitivities of whatever Pope or Bishop of the day thought. John certainly wrote about reincarnation.

John 9
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

John never condemned the belief of the disciples, who believed in reincarnation, or called them antichrists.

Christians believe in the resurrection of Jesus not the reincarnation and no they are not the same thing.
No reincarnation in Christianity. You only get one go round so you'd better be good.

a reply to: AutumnWitch657

Reincarnation and Christianity can coexist. Reincarnation doesn't invalidate Christianity, in fact, Christianity hinges one it!

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: schuyler
I don't accept your explanation. The "Resurrection" refers to Jesus arising from the dead shortly after his crucifixion and "rising into Heaven." The rock was rolled back from the cave. Several people say they saw him and he spoke to him, Thomas stuck his hand in the wound caused by the Centurion, therefore it was the same body brought back to life. THEN Jesus rose to Heaven. Yadda Yadda goes the story. This is a very standard explanation of the Resurrection. In fact, I have never heard of the Resurrection being described as anything different in any Blblical text or explanation of a Biblical text.

The Second Coming is ENTIRELY different and, according to most Christians at least, hasn't happened yet.
Don't confuse "The Resurrection" with "The Second Coming." The first is what it is. The second is reincarnation.

I am not confusing resurrection with second coming.
YOU are making the assumption, quite unnecessarily, that Jesus has somehow lost his resurrection body.
The implication of the New Testament, as outlined in Matthew ch24, is that he "returns" from heaven, "in the glory of the Father", in the same body in which he left. No second body needed.

Yes, there seems to be a loose idea in some circles that the Second Coming will take the form of a reincarnation, but that's only amongst people who are a little vague on the New Testament teaching. When they post speculations like that on this site,some of us try to put them right.
PS Now you can compare my answer just below this one.

I don't need to. Given what you have said on this situation I cannot take your "scholarship" in Christianity seriously. I really do not think you are qualified to expound on the issue. The Second Coming is a perfect example of reincarnation. That you tie yourself and others into tortuous knots trying to avoid it is just silly.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: AutumnWitch657

Reincarnation and Christianity can coexist. Reincarnation doesn't invalidate Christianity, in fact, Christianity hinges one it!

What a frustrating thread.
This is utter rubbish, by the way.
Disraeli is entirely correct - the Bible has no bearing on reincarnation whatsoever. Doesn't even address it, save to suggest indirectly that such a thing is impossible ("it is determined to man once to die; and after that, judgment").

The instances discussed in this thread so far are either exceptional (Elijah being 'translated' to heaven; John the Baptist being the fulfilment of the prophecy of Elijah from Malachi 4; Jesus Christ Himself being resurrected (same body, same spirit)).

The greatest passages with bearing on this topic are 1 Corinthians 15, discussing the resurrection body (note that - resurrection - it's the same body, only "raised imperishable") and 1 Thessalonians 4, which talks about "the dead in Christ shall rise first" - this being the point at which those who have died in Christ will be clothed with that resurrection body (as per 1 Corinthians 15). Again though, as Disraeli has already stated, the analogy used is plant/seed - it's the same entity.


If you're going to diverge into conversations about gnostics, then you can pretty much argue that Christianity taught anything and everything; the whole point being that gnosis (knowledge; obtained often by dreams and visions) was and is unreliable and extrabiblical.

If you want to judge Christianity, do so by its text: The Bible.
"All Scripture is God-breathed, and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (1 Timothy 3:16). If you want to debate what God sanctions in Christianity, do so using that which is God-breathed... and there's only one book (or 66 of them if you want to be more particular) that qualifies for that.

a reply to: schuyler
I have to repeat, there is no reincarnation involved in the New Testament teaching of the Second Coming.
If you are supposing that it involves a "rebirth in a mother's womb", as has been suggested above, and as the less versed posters on this site sometimes assume, that only demonstrates your own ignorance of the New Testament.

If you can find a single New Testament statement suggesting that Jesus is expected to return in a fresh physical body, I will concede the point.

I do not accept you as qualified to assess the level of my scholarship.

originally posted by: schuyler
I don't need to. Given what you have said on this situation I cannot take your "scholarship" in Christianity seriously. I really do not think you are qualified to expound on the issue. The Second Coming is a perfect example of reincarnation. That you tie yourself and others into tortuous knots trying to avoid it is just silly.

This is patently false.
The Second Coming isn't another birth, nor another body.
It is the same Christ, in the same body, simply returning again.
In fact, if you read the book of Revelation, you'll see that He still bears the scars of His crucifixion here. He is "the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world".