Up to 700 migrants feared drowned after boat capsizes in the Mediterranean

originally posted by: ketsuko


Why do "we" have to make "their" countries places worth living in and how do "we" do that?

Look at all the flack countries who try adventures in colonialism and nation building take on.

It's a lost cause. As harsh as it is to say, these people made their bed, and they should lay in it, not flee and ruin the homes of other peoples by bringing their own cultures with them.

The real issue is that they live by a failed system, and until they change that, they will not get better lives. And we who have better systems have tried to change that, and it doesn't work.

Exactly. When we do go there and say "You need democracy" the rest of the world says we have no business there. And yet WE send THEM billions of dollars in aid, and do they thank us?

NO, they take the money then send their people out into other countries, expecting other countries to take care of them.

Europe, WE are sending them aid, make them pay us back if they go to your countries. Wait, another idea, since you love them so much, why don't YOU send them the same amount of aid that we do.

You know, if the US were never to send aid to other countries, our economy would have more money than it knows what to do with and we could take care of our own better. But noooooo, we send them aid, that they don't appreciate and don't seem to care about paying us back.

If we sent them aid, pay us back if they want to go to Europe. Then Europe can take care of them. Europe has been conned. I say if any European country welcomes them with open arms, then that European country can pay us back, because those European countries can take care of them financially.

And if they can't, stop expecting the US to keep sending them aid. We spend $50 BILLION every year in foreign aid, and yet the US is always the big, bad guy.

But here's the thing, Europe, they are taking our money and using it to create terrorists to send them to your countries, all the while the ones benefiting the most from the aid tell you propaganda against the US and you believe them.

You need another Sigismund or Charles Martel. Europe, you are being conned.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
a reply to: gortex

If we lived in such s**t countries with mob violence, corrupt leaders, constant war, famine, drought, underdevelopment and mass poverty, we would all be trying to get ourselves and our kids to a better life somewhere else too! The only thing that seems to make it acceptable to ignore this obvious fact is race and nationality.

Don't worry, if you and your ilk get your way - and you are - we'll be living in such sh*t countries before the end of this century. Complete with tribal warfare, in fact, that is already a staple of the multicultural project and the accompanying cultural suicide.

Where will we all go then?

Do you even realize that Western countries take in a vast amount of refugees and immigrants compared to the rest of the World? We can barely deal with the pressures the current rate of immigration is putting on us and you guys want to open the floodgates. Are you people even vaguely familiar with the concept of realpolitik or do you deal exclusively in rose coloured glasses? If you ever wanted the recipe to a failed state this is it, and it is beyond obvious at this point. I really can't believe you people.

How about this, how about our Western elites and our Western corporations stop treating Africa, the Middle East and South America like our personal playground. Toppling governments at our leisure and fomenting division and chaos. If both the West and the East could come together on this and initiate some real change to bring stability and prosperity to these regions I think we'd have a real shot. These countries need infrastructure, and more specifically: "intellectual infrastructure", if they want to be able to maintain a modern functional state.

We neither need to nor is it our obligation to take care of the whole World, especially if by doing so we'd be undoing ourselves and what makes us unique.

I'm so tired of these ill thought out clichés and fantasies of racial and cultural harmony. A notion I might say, that is quite unique to the West and that is also heavily characterized by oikophobia and self-negation. If 19th century white people were the most racist people to walk the Earth in those times then surely modern day white people are the most oblivious, foolish and delusional of all peoples. The rest of the World certainly does not share this ridiculously over-exaggerated "tolerance"(which is very often just a euphemism for self-righteousness) which in the real world translates to weakness. In fact, they staunchly identify with their people in a way that would get any white Westerner called a racist in a heartbeat.

Read some Machiavelli and join the rest of the World in reality please. There is most certainly a reason why our politicians, our media and our educational institutions are hell bent to flood our countries with discordant, tribal peoples and cultures and it has nothing to do with being good moral people.

You white liberals are being used, the immigrants are being used. The synthesis isn't pretty, the designs of the elite power brokers certainly aren't pretty. The monumental implications of these policies can not be understated. They're playing chess games with our civilisation and their end game won't be serving any of you plebs, whether you're black or white.

Edit: Seems I have become too lazy to read whole posts now, I saw something written and went into rant mode. I see now that we agree about certain things, consider this a general reply to supporters of mass immigration and a denunciation of cultural Marxism then.

The point of this thread was to report the human tragedy that has happened today , I consider the loss of 700 lives in one incident to be saddening and above the politics of views on immigration , it seems people would rather ignore the the loss of life because the people involved are immigrants and so not worth a thought , the children involved are not our children.

Immigration is a concern but don't let that concern blind you to the suffering of your fellow Humans , hundreds , maybe thousands more desperate people will likely die in the coming months and they will likely get even less sympathy than these poor souls as we become used to this happening , just more faceless victims of circumstance.

originally posted by: gortex
The point of this thread was to report the human tragedy that has happened today , I consider the loss of 700 lives in one incident to be saddening and above the politics of views on immigration , it seems people would rather ignore the the loss of life because the people involved are immigrants and so not worth a thought , the children involved are not our children.

Immigration is a concern but don't let that concern blind you to the suffering of your fellow Humans , hundreds , maybe thousands more desperate people will likely die in the coming months and they will likely get even less sympathy than these poor souls as we become used to this happening , just more faceless victims of circumstance.

Don't worry, the US is already on it.

And don't worry, the US already gave them aid in their country, just so they wouldn't have to descend upon Europe.

It is sad and tragic, but let's look at the reality of why these people chose to go to another country. You know, the US has had its share of taking in refugees, Canada has as well. The boat people of Cambodia, that was certainly something that should have been more received. And we also have many people fleeing Cuba to come here on boats.

The problem is that they chose to go to another country, they took the risk of being on a boat with that many people and they didn't think the boat might not be able to support that many people.

The real tragedy is that they got aid in their country to develop it and chose instead of making their home better, put themselves and their children in jeopardy and now the consequences are massive. It is a tragedy, but we need to look at the real cause of the problem. We need to not let it happen again. But how do we do that?

The US is already helping, behind the scenes our government is already offering condolences. Is that too much to ask if we question their fellow countrymen about why they allowed it to get so bad there that 700 people had to die?

a reply to: WarminIndy

No, here's the deal: the US is the main driving factor in fighting wars all across the Third World. Yet we Europeans get stuck with the refugees while the US keeps draining the world of its intelligence via H-1B visas.

You f around and we get stuck with the mess seems to be the deal. Well, to be honest, I don't think the oligarchs plans for the US are particularly swell either. In the end the masses are getting it in the ass around the world and because of massive apathy and ignorance I'm more and more starting to think they deserve it.

I would send these people back right after I hanged every last worthless politician and puppeteer I could find.

Humanity... *sigh*

a reply to: gortex

Well I wasn't exactly crying my eyeballs out when 9/11 happened, or when any of these plane crashes happened recently so I'll probably not be too emotionally involved when a couple hundred Africans die when they've been constantly killing each other for much longer than I've been born. I mean it's just another day, as Leonardo Dicaprio would say; TIA, This Is Africa.

And in the end it really is a question of immigration, you want us all to sit around here and mourn on an internet forum? That wouldn't be much of a discussion, I'd rather discuss the surrounding issues. Red Cross ads long ago desensitized me to the suffering of Africans.

a reply to: WarminIndy

What planet did you say you come from?

This is a tragedy and you better should keep quiet instead of disgracing your fellow countrymen.

Of course, it is a European problem. Stop bombing innocent people and we can try to find solutions over here.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
a reply to: WarminIndy

No, here's the deal: the US is the main driving factor in fighting wars all across the Third World. Yet we Europeans get stuck with the refugees while the US keeps draining the world of its intelligence via H-1B visas.

You f around and we get stuck with the mess seems to be the deal. Well, to be honest, I don't think the oligarchs plans for the US are particularly swell either. In the end the masses are getting it in the ass around the world and because of massive apathy and ignorance I'm more and more starting to think they deserve it.

I would send these people back right after I hanged every last worthless politician and puppeteer I could find.

Humanity... *sigh*

Then give us our money back.

You could have done something good for them, but you don't. France has made a fortune of Algeria, Tunisia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Cabo Verde, and the Ivory Coast. Your France plundered them and Vietnam, subjugating them for centuries, and then when it came out that in the Ivory Coast that France had put children in slavery on the chocolate plantations, what was the condemnation? NONE.

Then your other European countries embrace whatever country they can plunder and enslave and yet you keep the Roma in second class citizenship, they don't get the same citizenship as others, and you embrace the immigrants because you are plundering their countries.

Don't tell me that the US is responsible for all of that. Europe is getting kicked back in the face, because no one in Europe demanded that you stop plundering.

Blood diamonds, blood chocolate...where is the condemnation? I say that France pays us back for dragging us into Vietnam, I say France apologizes for the child slavery in the Ivory Coast.

It's like Europe is asleep to their own actions, and then wonder why they reap what they sow. What comes around goes around, and the US is tired of being called the bad guy.

Get your plantation owners out of the Ivory Coast, then maybe you can play the higher morality card. But all your European Union is making billions off blood diamonds and blood chocolate, and then say the US is immoral for going to war for oil.

And on top of that, Europe has the highest forced sex slavery trafficking in the world, and you funnel your sex slaves from country to country in and out of Asia, and no one condemns you for it. Everyone else is wrong except the European Union.

Talk about effing around...don't buy chocolate, diamonds, jewels, oil or anything else, then you can play the morality card.

Those 700 people who died, they were victims of being screwed by the EUROPEAN UNION who has been making money off them for a long time.

Do you even know about these facts? Of course not, your government makes you feel comfortable by blaming the US, while you guys allow the Roma to continue living as second class citizens. ALL OVER EUROPE.

Romania, the poorest country in Europe, but do you care?

originally posted by: Siddharta
a reply to: WarminIndy

What planet did you say you come from?

This is a tragedy and you better should keep quiet instead of disgracing your fellow countrymen.

Of course, it is a European problem. Stop bombing innocent people and we can try to find solutions over here.

Then give us our money back.

Get out of the Ivory Coast, treat your Roma better and then maybe we can talk.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
It was all a plan by the UK and France. By helping removing Gadaffi they made this continental population shift possible. Until proper government is restored to Libya they reckon this will get worse.

a reply to: gortex

It didn't miraculously start with the taking down of Gaddafi (correct spelling), and it's not just Libya.
The notion that this was all caused by the removal of that one leader is simplistic in the extreme. There was already an exodus of people from these countries due to war and poverty and there has been for decades.

Just as we saw mass immigration from Pakistan and India in decades past, we're seeing it from African nations, and the causes are the same - war and poverty, and people looking for a better life.

We reduced immigration from other countries not by refusing them and sending them back every time they arrived, but by assisting in the development of their own countries and giving them the opportunities they wanted.

I watched a program on it this morning and the Italian said it's got LOADS worse since Gadaffi was removed. That's coming from the horses mouth

Who said that? An Italian politician? Oh well then it must be all because we took out an evil dictator who was planning to murder potentially hundreds of thousands of his own people to maintain his grip on power!

In addition, there's nothing to say that there wouldn't be these problems with Muslim extremism in Libya with Gaddafi in place. Gaddafi was on the verge of slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent people in an attempt to stop them from overthrowing him, he was a dictator, he was a sadistic, f**ked up man.

originally posted by: DanaKatherineScully
The boats should be opened fire on if they refuse to turn back, they are not fleeing anything at all other than a freeride.

It's depressing that this kind of sick and twisted attitude exists in 2015.

It's even sicker that you got stars for that utter tripe.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
Edit: Seems I have become too lazy to read whole posts now, I saw something written and went into rant mode. I see now that we agree about certain things, consider this a general reply to supporters of mass immigration and a denunciation of cultural Marxism then.

Indeed. Maybe the fact that you made a massive assumption and went into a massive tirade in response to something I hadn't said is a perfect example of knee-jerk political response without actually considering the problem?

a reply to: gortex

Its nothing now though is it? It happens pretty often. This is why I have no Sympathy for them. They know the consequences when they hand over their cash to the smuggler... from there on its nobodies fault but their own.

And we have enough 'Muslims' here already... we dont need anymore and if they were also 'Christians', well, its just not gonna be any better because them 'Muslims' and 'Christians' will be fighting wherever they go and will be bring their problems with them. We don't need it.

There's only so much we can take.

They need to go back to where they came and if not to 'libya' then they can go to 'Morocco' or 'Eygpt' like i said already.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Why do "we" have to make "their" countries places worth living in and how do "we" do that?

Look at all the flack countries who try adventures in colonialism and nation building take on.

It's a lost cause. As harsh as it is to say, these people made their bed, and they should lay in it, not flee and ruin the homes of other peoples by bringing their own cultures with them.

The real issue is that they live by a failed system, and until they change that, they will not get better lives. And we who have better systems have tried to change that, and it doesn't work.

Oh how little people in the comfortable west give a sh*t about how their comfort is at the cost of others.

Where do you think your fuel comes from?
Who do you think makes your clothes?
Where do you think your coffee beans grow?
Where does all that flashy jewelry come from?
Who works 12 hours a day on minimum wage to make your next phone?
What about your pension and the companies you invest in?

I guess you think everything you have came from the fruits of your own labor and you would have everything you have now without all of those millions of people working a hell of a lot harder than you for a hell of a lot less? You think you worked so hard for everything you have, when you have no freakin clue of the many people who actually work ten times harder for you to have that comfortable life.

I baffles me how people in this day and age can be so ignorant to the world around them. The Internet is a big place, full of information, allowing you to make connections and learn new things, but it seems most spend all their time laughing at cat videos and analyzing the same frames of 9/11 over and over again.


The idea that everyone in a country is to blame for the state of their country is asinine it's unreal. I guess all Americans are to blame for the actions of your government too, right? After all, you want to claim that these people are at fault, surely you are also to blame for the state of your own country?

Again, the motto here is deny ignorance, too many people are more interested in embracing it.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Then give us our money back.

Get out of the Ivory Coast, treat your Roma better and then maybe we can talk.

The Greeks already want "their money back". So you have to queue up.
But I don't remember any money you ever invested in me or my country.

We have no business in Ivory Coast. And talking about Roma. Three of those guys tried to rob me a few weeks ago. They still are allowed to live in my country. Hopefully they land in jail soon.

Still there are so many average people suffering and dying for nothing. Just today a man from Marocco burnt himself over here, because his asylum was rejected.

It's time to understand, that we are all sitting on a little rock, flying through the universe. Just a nutshell.

originally posted by: Siddharta

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Then give us our money back.

Get out of the Ivory Coast, treat your Roma better and then maybe we can talk.

The Greeks already want "their money back". So you have to queue up.
But I don't remember any money you ever invested in me or my country.

We have no business in Ivory Coast. And talking about Roma. Three of those guys tried to rob me a few weeks ago. They still are allowed to live in my country. Hopefully they land in jail soon.

Still there are so many average people suffering and dying for nothing. Just today a man from Marocco burnt himself over here, because his asylum was rejected.

It's time to understand, that we are all sitting on a little rock, flying through the universe. Just a nutshell.

And you are a loving, caring, never harm anyone Buddhist...?

The money I am talking about? The BILLIONS in foreign aid that go to benefit companies that do business with the European Union. You want them, you take care of them and give us our money back.

You eat chocolate, right? Chocolate slavery

Go ahead, eat your Toblerone, deny that you are getting your chocolate off the blood and sweat of children.

So why don't you, as a caring citizen of your country, understand the fact that those Roma men aren't even citizens of your country. They are treated like second class, so why shouldn't they act like it?

You can only tell people so long that their suffering is something they have to endure, because you can't see the reality of their lives.

Maybe you aren't living in reality. People are dying because they are hungry, they don't need you to keep them hungry by not listening to the problems that cause their hunger.

a reply to: gortex

Libya.

Isn't that the garden paradise created by Obama and then Secretary Hillary Clinton?

What a legacy.

a reply to: WarminIndy

You seem to be a very hurted person, confusing a lot of things. No, I don't eat much chocolate. I am more the spice guy.
You seem to care for people and than again not. Is it only the fate of the Roma that interests you? They could get citizenship over here. So that is not really a problem.

I am not sure, where your accusations are going right now. You want your money back, chocolate is exploitation and Romas have to be citizens of first class? That's a little confusing.

Can we agree that those boat people deserve more than dying at sea?

originally posted by: Siddharta
a reply to: WarminIndy

You seem to be a very hurted person, confusing a lot of things. No, I don't eat much chocolate. I am more the spice guy.
You seem to care for people and than again not. Is it only the fate of the Roma that interests you? They could get citizenship over here. So that is not really a problem.

I am not sure, where your accusations are going right now. You want your money back, chocolate is exploitation and Romas have to be citizens of first class? That's a little confusing.

Can we agree that those boat people deserve more than dying at sea?

Do you see them beyond being boat people?

Of course they don't deserve dying at sea, but perhaps they died at sea after being exploited by the European Union. Did you ever think of that?

Take care of people otherwise more like this will happen. Perhaps you should show your humanity for the Roma, perhaps you should protest your own country for exploitation.

This event, just gave you one day to be sympathetic, tomorrow it will mean less to you, but right now there are dying and hungry people in your town, in your cities, in your country. What are you doing for them, those that are around you?

a reply to: WarminIndy

I see those people as my closest relatives. They are what I am. I could be at their place. My existence is just an accident. I could be everybody else, even you.

Your position here is very unintelligible. This is not about the Roma, nor about USA. This is about people dying. It does not make any sense to throw bad cards, but rather about solutions. Put your anger aside.

There is no hope, if everybody reacts with anger.