Remember the Aurora Batman shooter James Holmes- you'll want to read this- MK ultra

As a matter of fact, it was that instance that began me looking into other matters and I might or might not have even filed an IG report on it a long time ago, but my memory is not what it used to be, so cannot say for certain.

a reply to: Shamrock6

If I remember correctly, you have a legal background... May I presume to ask you some legal procedure type questions regarding evidence in this (or any case?). You may not know the answers in this specific case/state, but any insight you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

If Holmes (or anyone) decided to pursue an "innocent by reason of mind control" defense, how could/would this be proven? If at all. I understand the rules of discovery -- i.e., any and all evidence found/gathered by the prosecution must be shared with the defense. But what if the prosecution (for whatever reason) does not decide to pursue such avenues? If a defendant claims such, is the prosecution required to follow up in any way?

How would/could the defense pursue such evidence? Can the mental health records of James Holmes be released with his consent? Does the therapist have a right to withhold any records? Does the defense have any powers to subpoena records? Or just witnesses? How about his school records -- any or all? What if -- for the sake of this argument -- Holmes was part of an officially classified project at school; how would one go about having those records provided and then introduced at court? Would it be subject to a ruling by that court? A different or higher court? Would the judge be given access to those records confidentially to rule on their relevance?

I have no opinion on James Holmes' specifically. I need more information before I can form an opinion; and even then, it would still only be an opinion worth two plug nickels in the end. I'm mostly wondering how/if this line of defense would be addressed in and out of court.

Thanks in advance. I appreciate any and all insight you can share.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
In the case of brainwashing it takes years to accomplish.

With the use of psychedelics, any number of mental changes can be rapidly induced, if used properly.

a reply to: freedom7

There are always additional deaths around the false cases one of these,drowned in the middle of the night while her family slept. What did she observe that would have made her a liability. As a Neurological nurse she may have been able to recognize something others would not.

A Colorado woman who drowned while swimming in a lake in Iowa has been identified as an ICU nurse who had treated a victim of the Aurora theater shooting weeks earlier.
Gallagher had specialized in treating head injuries and helped open the Neurological Intensive Care Unit. On the day of the theater shooting, she cared for one of the victims in the unit.

articles.latimes.com...

I have always wondered if James Holmes was involved in an NIH clinical trial of some sort. He DID receive a $21,600 grant from them, and I have to suspect that it was contingent, perhaps, on participating in a NCATS program of some sort at the University of Colorado.

He may have thought he was participating in some sort of interactive psychological clinical experiment.

Why cant James Holmes just be someone who went crazy?

Every single time there is a major shooting or terrorist attack in the US everyone thinks its either mind control or a false flag attack. why is it so hard for people in America to accept that someone can go mad with a gun and kill a bunch of people?

a reply to: PhoenixOD

Most people do think he was just somebody that went crazy.

This is ATS....remember? We examine the possibilities, connect the dots, analyze facts, and look at angles others may not have the "skills" to see.

They tell you that you can not do some thing
under hypnosis that you would not do.
like kill your father.

but what if they got you to believe when you look at
your father you see a man who killed your father.
and that you must kill him before he kills your mother.

they could make you believe that you are a soldier
who has killed these people lots of times.
so its nothing new to you.

They dont wont you to know how easy it is.
you can use drugs to make hypnosis a lot easer.

and why do they do this?
a Big game of chess.
to give them total power.
to hide secrets and just to keep you preoccupied.
just look at how many conspiracies there is!
just so we Dont see the real one!

I would offer my usual grain of salt, just as a precaution:

Just because someone may be mentally ill and their delusions may happen to jive with speculated-to-exist modern extensions of an officially avowed attempt at behavioral control, it does not automatically follow that they can't still simply be mentally ill and delusional. Just because a conversation between said possibly delusional individual and another person took place, does not automatically mean that what he asserted in that conversation is the truth.

On the other hand, is it conceivable and possible? Yes. And if it were, would him being delusional be the perfect cover for it and similar incidents? Yes, it would. So I am open to the possibility.

Peace.

originally posted by: PhoenixOD
Why cant James Holmes just be someone who went crazy?

Every single time there is a major shooting or terrorist attack in the US everyone thinks its either mind control or a false flag attack. why is it so hard for people in America to accept that someone can go mad with a gun and kill a bunch of people?

Exactly. Some people are just sick. Like they have a mind virus or something. Let's just medicate them. And if they don't take medications, let's pass laws to make them, right?

Pardon me, but yes, that was sarcasm. How do you know what is the truth unless you bother to find out?

originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: Rocker2013
In the case of brainwashing it takes years to accomplish.

With the use of psychedelics, any number of mental changes can be rapidly induced, if used properly.

All due respects to both of you, really.
However, I think you would find pain (and then the lack of it) accomplishes the desired result (whatever that may be) more rapidly than anything whatsoever. And a close second, would be blackmail with the wedge being the health and well being of those you care about most.

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: Rocker2013
In the case of brainwashing it takes years to accomplish.

With the use of psychedelics, any number of mental changes can be rapidly induced, if used properly.

All due respects to both of you, really.
However, I think you would find pain accomplishes the desired result (whatever that may be) more rapidly than anything whatsoever. And a close second, would be blackmail with the wedge being the health and well being of those you care about most.

I would argue, with research backing it up prior to their being outlawed, that psychedelics are far and away, incomparably, the fastest and most reliable tool for mental change available to humans...this can be good, or bad. It is documented that the government utilized this fact for evil...people were beginning to utilize this fact for the good, and then the same government who used them for evil outlawed them...

It was a regular observation by psychotherapists in the 60's that they could being about more change in a single psychedelic-assisted session than years of traditional therapy...because your mental structures are broken down, and if done properly, any new structures which are desired can be put in their place.

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: DJW001

Colorado banned 30 round magazines after the shooting. Two state senators were recalled because of it.

link

There you go.

Yes, this is true. I also find it amazing no one mentioned the "crazy people" data base created after this happened.

In fact this law HAS BEEN USED to take away guns from people who simply had trouble sleeping.

Here's a link about it:
from CNN

www.cnn.com...
"The truth is that commitment laws shouldn't be a stopgap to prevent imminent harm, but rather seen as an essential tool to help a loved one needing treatment before things reach the imminent harm stage.
Next, we've got to connect the dots between mental health records and National Instant Background Check. In 2014, Mayors Against Illegal Guns released a report calling for states to close this gap. "

www.washingtontimes.com...
"A U.S. Navy veteran and retired police detective is suing New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and other state officials for confiscating his gun permit and four handguns after he voluntarily sought medical treatment for insomnia."

originally posted by: PhoenixOD
Why cant James Holmes just be someone who went crazy?

Every single time there is a major shooting or terrorist attack in the US everyone thinks its either mind control or a false flag attack. why is it so hard for people in America to accept that someone can go mad with a gun and kill a bunch of people?

For various reasons. As to this specific case, perhaps because of all the symbolism around the film itself, the location of that particular theatre, etc. Certainly, Mr. Holmes's wearing a costume inspired by the film draws some conclusions about the film, symbolically or outright. Just the wearing of any costume, whatsoever, is a symbol of something, is it not? As I remember, there was also symbology implied in the particular theatre, its location being Aurora. There is a project by the title of AuroraGold belonging to the NSA, having to do with illegal surveillance of the public's cell phones. I don't know the timeframes involved here, but it seems they are close enough to be synchronymous.

As to this part of your question and/or statement:

Every single time there is a major shooting or terrorist attack in the US everyone thinks its either mind control or a false flag attack. why is it so hard for people in America to accept that someone can go mad with a gun and kill a bunch of people

Most of us still display somewhat of a "man is basically good" belief system, and it's obvious here albeit in a backwards sort of way: We don't believe there are that many people on the loose who would "go mad with a gun and kill a bunch of people. It's (the "man is basically good" belief system) left over from a time when people had a hard time believing anyone at all would do such a thing. The more inured to the violence people become, the closer we are to believing that anyone at any time can and would do this, and thus, the closer we are to completely and overtly handing over control of our minds, thinking that this will save us…..never mind it's the fact that doomed us to this. Was that chicken there first, or the egg? And such sayings were made up so we become inured to that, as well…..both the lack thereof of logic, or the lack of facts to lead us to such logic….or the lack of logic that leads us to questionable "facts." That's the trouble with mind control, to begin with.
Irony, anyone?

a reply to: TheJourney
Again, with all due respect, there aren't any published, statistics driven research studies in existence to gauge with what quickness torture and the thrteatening of one's loved ones undergoing the same, achieves results, now, are there?

I find your comments as to this issue to be completely out of touch, so to speak, with what would be going on here, in the assumptions surrounding such a hypothesis as the OP. I speak as someone who supports giving schizophrenics MDMA, and believe it is very likely helpful. But this isn't really what we are discussing. You are comparing "therapy" to "torture." MK Ultra wasn't really about "therapy," at any point. If you think it was, then perhaps you should research it more. Hypnotherapy, as it applied in terms of MK Ultra, was not intended to be therapeutic then, either.

originally posted by: OneManArmy

Corroborative evidence of its likelyhood.

Not really corroborative, but interesting no less.

It`s a shame the program Derren made involving MK ultra is unavailable on the net now.
The one where he used the technique on a young man who stood up in the audience as a show had just ended, then shot actor Stephen Fry with a pistol full of blanks.
That show was in my opinion, proof that it can be done, although Holmes looked drugged up to the hilt.

originally posted by: tetra50
a reply to: TheJourney
Again, with all due respect, there aren't any published, statistics driven research studies in existence to gauge with what quickness torture and the thrteatening of one's loved ones undergoing the same, achieves results, now, are there?

I find your comments as to this issue to be completely out of touch, so to speak, with what would be going on here, in the assumptions surrounding such a hypothesis as the OP. I speak as someone who supports giving schizophrenics MDMA, and believe it is very likely helpful. But this isn't really what we are discussing. You are comparing "therapy" to "torture." MK Ultra wasn't really about "therapy," at any point. If you think it was, then perhaps you should research it more. Hypnotherapy, as it applied in terms of MK Ultra, was not intended to be therapeutic then, either.

It's about mental change. Positive mental changes can be brought about in the same way negative ones can be. It's all about possibilities for mental change. As I said, psychedelics break down mental structures, and allow new structures to be put in their place...this has been demonstrated...brainwashing is one potential use for that...psychedelics are the most powerful brainwashing tool available to humans, if they are knowledgably used.

I haven't read through all the thread yet, so someone may have mentioned this already, but the thing I found concerning about all these shootings that were happening at that time was the perp's eyes. They all looked like they were in some strange state, like under a mind-altering drug or something. Their eyes were like "bugged out." And then immediately following each shooting was the gun control crowd screaming from the rooftops about how we needed new legislation...and they lost in their efforts every time...and not long later, another mass-shooting with another "bugged out" perp!

a reply to: DJW001

Keep in mind there's a stark difference between "gun control laws" that were passed VS a Problem , reaction, solution ( aurora theater shootout scenario in an ATTEMPT to pass gun laws that would ban firearms. The American people are waking up everyday and growing in number, and they are heavily armed and would gladly die for their families, freedoms, beliefs etc... The Elite's are well aware of this, so you can make an argument they will keep initiating false flag attacks to test the public to see how they would react, or to keep trying until they can at least minimize the amount of guns in circulation, or limit it to certain types of firearms..

There are many games within the game being played in this war being waged on the people.

a reply to: TheJourney

No, it's about methodology. I am surprised you continue to not see this. Of course, you are focused on the mental change aspect. So you reduce it to the lowest common denominator by making negative and positive the interchangeable aspect, equaling common denominator in the "change" aspect. Except, the same, in a way, can be done with it in this way: the change aspect being relevant in "in pain," and "not in pain." If you are in extreme pain, you will do anything to not be in any pain, any longer. If you are tripping, it's not quite so clear cut. Having vast experience, anecdotally, in both areas, I tend to think that pain is the more clarifying of the two situations. You will seek mental and perceptual changes of lack of pain, NO MATTER WHAT.

And my point is still the same: there are no reliable nor published statistics proving what pain accomplishes, or threat of the same to a loved one we perceive we are responsible for (such as one's child), and how quickly and completely this achieves the goal of changed mental states and/or behavior. There can't be. Because that study would be illegal, obviously.