Which Non Lethal Weapon Do You Trust?

Here we see the end of the over advertised piece of junk with the cool sounding name. The Taser XREP.

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The XREPs and specialised shotguns were delivered in a white van. A small number of constables were given one test shot each into a rubbish bag. They then took these weapons to the scene of the standoff.

Raoul Moat was shot twice with the XREPs. Both failed either due to his cheap stab vest or veering off and missing altogether. A constable then ran to him and shot him in the side of the head. The XREP penetrated through the front of his skull from side to side. Death was not quick or quiet.

Officially the cause of death was a self inflicted injury with a self loaded shotgun cartridge. If that was true I don't see why there was such an backlash on XREP sales.

Carefully watching the advertising videos shows none of the tough guys advertising this junk would risk the blunt trauma that the XREP exhibits, (before it loses power and veers hopelessly off course). The man who is shocked by an XREP on video had it pressed into his skin then switched on manually. Editing gave the impression he was actually shot with it. Deceptive advertising that raked in a tidy sum from gullible police departments.

This is the truth about over advertised non lethal weaponry. It's designed by idiots, sold by idiots, bought and used by idiots on idiots.

Be clever. Don't buy useless junk. If it needs advertising it doesn't work. If it works it sells itself.

One thing we have to face up to. There is always going to be number of dangerous crazy people who have to be restrained humanely. How are we going to do it?

Chanting OM and wearing tie-dye clothes didn't work last time I looked.

a reply to: Kester

Training is a start.
You only need your own body to restrain someone safely.
No weapon needed.

None.

Putting the Cops in charge of a non-lethal banana will result in the worlds first death by banana.

a reply to: bullcat

This just in, the gruesome scene where police killed a man via bananas. The PD Chief has gone on record saying the suspect was armed "with several apples and oranges, and was preparing to use these dangerous weapons on officers".

a reply to: boymonkey74

That works till you come across someone with superhuman strength. I've known one such man. He kept his strength secret and wanted the police to think his mad behaviour was the effects of drugs. He hid is madness and his strength until his big freakout. A powerful adult who attempted resistance was picked up and thrown across the room. When he was cornered by the local farm boys he stooped fighting but made a break for freedom when police arrived. They chased him out into an open area where he gave up and allowed himself to be taken. If he'd carried on fighting no training would have worked, his strength was far beyond normal.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

Good luck with the bananas when you meet a fruitcake.

The absolute helplessness felt when being picked up and thrown around is unlikely to be relieved by fruit.

a reply to: Kester

Nope with the correct techniques a small person can take down anyone.
People with autism have the strength of five when distressed I see workers restrain safely everyday.
When I worked on mental health I saw a four fpot ten female nurse do a one man takedown on a guy who was six five and 280 pounds.
You use momentum and their own strength against them.

a reply to: boymonkey74

Thank you. I can see you're right. As long as the subject can be approached.

a reply to: Kester

There are no non lethal weapons. There is no such thing as an item which could be considered a weapon, which literally cannot kill someone. Given that I could kill someone with a minimum of 85% of the items one might find in an average household, the idea that any item designed with martial purpose in mind is some benine, utterly safe, zero risk object is absurd.

Hell, a good kicking can kill a person, so one has to assume, if one has any sense, that by definition, any weapon designed for carriage by a human hand, is going to be potentially lethal.

Speaking of which, the "non lethal" weapon I have had the best use out of, was a Nokia 3210 mobile phone. It had a good weight to it, turned knives away without getting badly scratched, and made a lovely hidden bludgeon with which to fend off assaults. Rammed into the back of a skull, it had an effect somewhat similar to what I would have expected from a pulled strike from a house brick. That being, stunning ones opponent and making them puke violently, leaving one time to put the phone away, dust ones self off, shoot ones cuffs and rearrange ones attire, and leave the vicinity, with ones wallet and mortal existence intact.

I would say that the Nokia 3210 (which despite its being used in a manner which was not in any way in accordance with the recommendations in the instruction manual, was the most reliable phone I have ever owned) is the only thing I miss about being in my early to mid teens.

JiuJitsu and Filipino Stick fighting training. Then a proper well reviewed ( by law enforcement) Tazer for the mid range.

That should do it.

When someone has a knife or a gun though that changes things.

The human mind is the most powerful weapon.

How many people have been hurt and killed by it's use since the dawn of man?

a reply to: TrueBrit

With the policing cuts continuing one hopes the 'buying squad' will take heed of your wise advice.

Fifteen quid on ebay.

originally posted by: Kester
a reply to: boymonkey74

That works till you come across someone with superhuman strength. I've known one such man. He kept his strength secret and wanted the police to think his mad behaviour was the effects of drugs. He hid is madness and his strength until his big freakout. A powerful adult who attempted resistance was picked up and thrown across the room. When he was cornered by the local farm boys he stooped fighting but made a break for freedom when police arrived. They chased him out into an open area where he gave up and allowed himself to be taken. If he'd carried on fighting no training would have worked, his strength was far beyond normal.

That's one Hell of a STORY.

a reply to: Shakawkaw

It went on from there. Doctor refused to section him. Mother was asked to collect him from court without being told of his madness. After being driven for two hours he waited till his mother got out of the car then jumped into the drivers seat and took off. Crashed a short while later. Stole knives. Arrested. Sectioned. Drugged until he lost his spark.

If you've missed out on that sort of experience I envy your sheltered life.

a reply to: Kester

Heh! Fifteen quid eh? Doesn't time fly?

In all honesty, the police in this country are being stiffed by the top brass, big time.

The NCA (National Crime Agency), a new type of police organisation in the UK, are going to become more prevalent over the coming years if recent indications are anything to go by. Basically an extension of Special Branch in all the relevant ways, the NCA will feature a higher percentage of weapons trained individuals than the regular police force, and will receive all the latest gizmos, doodads, and gadgets that are available, to help them do their jobs as well as possible. All this sounds great doesn't it?

Meanwhile, the rest of the police forces in the country, will have to put up with massive cuts, the most effective members of their forces being co-opted by the NCA, and many others simply being made redundant, all to pay for an FBI style investigative agency, in a country which does NOT require one. Further to that, they will have to suffer having substandard equipment, all to make sure the NCA are kept up to their eyeballs in technological marvels, and all the best personnel and slug chuckers available.

Of course, this defeats the purpose of our police force here in this country, because here in Britain, crime statistics get better when more police are present on the streets, and by no other method. Within a mile of my place there have been more than thirty burglaries in the last four months. I have NEVER known that to happen in all the years of my life. And the reason? At no time in my life, have there been fewer police officers on foot, patrolling the streets.

We see a police car go by every couple of weeks, unless something happens to be kicking off locally, but in general, we see a squad car go past, every fortnight or so. Maybe once a month, I will see a Community Police Support Officer (not a proper copper) or two, on foot, doing their best to appear as if their presence will have any affect on the local scum. I am not about to rag on them, they do what they do for good reasons, and I for one applaud them for getting involved, but there is no replacement for a proper, professional police force, in good numbers, regularly patrolling an area.

The reason I have just blasted off into this diatribe, and to link back to the OP itself, is to point out that non-lethal weaponry in the broadest sense, is probably going to become a subject with which a greater than normal percentage of British citizens are going to have to become familiar with for their own security and safety, precisely because of the changes to the way policing works in this country. As those changes bite, and the scum realise that they pretty much have carte Blanche so long as they get away clean, people are going to have to learn to take their own safety in hand to a much greater degree than they have for some considerable time in this country.

When an urgent call to the police gains a response time of forty bloody minutes, you can bet your bottom dollar that folk are going to wish for heavier mobile phones, coats with weights sewn into the hems, winter gloves with metal plates beneath the leather, and all manner of hidden and surprising garments, gadgets, and probably some home built self defence gear too. Working out the legal ramifications of these things is going to cost HUGE amounts of court time of course!

Raoul Moat, in my opinion, got what he wanted out of the day he died, and my only concern about the events which lead up to it, were for the people he destroyed the lives of along the way. You are right, he died in a pretty horrific way, with residual current from the XREP round pulsing directly into the meat of his brain probably. Good. He was a dangerous and violent man, who damaged people for years before he jumped totally off the sane carriage, directly onto the crazy train.

But just because XREPs are no longer a supported platform, does not mean that there will not be some equally dicey mechanism developed to cover the gap in the market left by that system, and my only concern about that is as follows:

Will ALL the people, upon whom these methods are used, be scum like Raoul Moat? Or will these systems be deployed against protestors, against activists, against non violent but non compliant individuals? Will the drop in police numbers, mean a Wild West like situation will develop, where police personnel are so outnumbered that they have to be the fastest draw?

Zap! You're dead! Or in a coma, permanently paralysed on one side, or a vegetable, or maybe, just maybe, in jail.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Dreadful situations can be turned to advantage.

David Rathband managed this before he took his own life. bluelamp-foundation.org...

For those who don't know Raoul Moat shot David Rathband in the face with a shotgun.


Great post, you seem to have covered all the main points. We need to defend ourselves in the absence of a timely police response. Either non lethally or at least quiet enough not to disturb the neighbours.

My leo training with a hand held taser was a complete joke, the neighboring dept started carring.......nunchuks, with just an 8 hour course?!?
I have. Consistantlydaid, leos are not highly trained ....a very very few may be, but the rank and file are not.
Actual fire arms training is also laughable.....

And what we keep seeing is pretty much normal business

a reply to: Kester

Heh...

There's an awful lot can happen in this world, which is neither likely to illicit a great deal of noise, nor be less than lethal, but your point is well made none the less.

I think that the direction that things are headed in, with regard to the way policing works, is a bad pathway to be forced to march on though. While it is my belief that a gentleman must be prepared to defend himself, and his community at all times, I also recognise that I only feel that way because of what life has been like for me personally. I do not believe that people who do not subscribe to my particular thinking on these matters ought to be forced by the state of our police force these days, to take up such a position without being committed to it by way of their inner construction.

On the one hand then, it is bound to be the case that at some point in the future, a homeowner or random person on the street who does not share my view, is going to have to act to defend themselves and they are going to kill someone in order to achieve their safety. When that eventually comes to pass, I would hope that the individual concerned is given all the support and understanding of the police and CPS, and indeed the community from which they come. If they are in any way molested by the law, it will be a hypocrisy of such epic proportions, that not even the ridiculous pantomime of Westminster could rival it, since if there is not adequate policing in a region, citizens must act, if they are not to become victims.

On the other hand, there will be the odd person out there (normally very odd!) who will take an attempted mugging in stride, and deal with any assault on their person as a mortal threat, as a matter of principle, and seek to kill their assailant outright, without any hesitation what so ever. I would hope that these individuals at also left alone by the law, since they will be in that situation for the same reasons, all of them outside of their full control, but may not be as visibly mortified by the experience.

Having grown up the way I did, I personally would probably sit closer to the second example of course, but the driving factors will be the same in any scenario from here on in. Someone killed a criminal during an attempt at a criminal act on the part of the deceased? Well do not blame the person that killed him, blame the idiot themselves, and the GOVERNMENT for failing to address policing in a sensible fashion!

I cannot see this going well, to be brutally honest.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Kester

Training is a start.
You only need your own body to restrain someone safely.
No weapon needed.

^^
What this guy said.

One month solid of white belt level BJJ training, and you will be able to take any tough guy of any size.

There is no comparison.

My first bjj class I was in, I had my a$$ handed to me by a 100lb 15 yr old. This was after wrestling experience from the age of 5 or 6 years old. It has almost zero to do with size or strength.

A lot of the training deals with ground grappling and getting comfortable with on-your back fighting, the typical position if someone tries to jump on and ground-and-pound you.

Tie this in with stick and edged weapons training, and you will be unstoppable.

Way better than relying on some type of weapon. You ARE the weapon.

originally posted by: amazing
JiuJitsu and Filipino Stick fighting training. Then a proper well reviewed ( by law enforcement) Tazer for the mid range.

That should do it.

When someone has a knife or a gun though that changes things.

Spot on with the Filipino stick fighting. Hubud, Heaven Six, and some Dumog will handle most people.

Boymonkey makes some very good points too.