Is there evidence that Jesus Christ existed? Yes, there is.

a reply to: JDmOKI

so by your criteria - would the bible be a valid source ?

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
a reply to: Gryphon66

You can even use only the bible to see the Paul doctrine vs Gospel message to see that there is a difference even in the bible to what Yeshua taught and what Paul taught.

He does talk like a anointed one so I have no reason to not believe Yeshua was an "anointed one". And I am saying he is not the only one. Pauls version called Jesus is another story.

That's a question I hadn't considered to this moment ... do we have any contemporaneous evidence for Paul's existence?

a reply to: Grimpachi

Say whatever you want, you still can't deny the fact that even historians who were not Christians wrote about Jesus as a real person, but you among others want to claim he wasn't...

Laugh all you want, your laughing does not disprove the fact he did exist, he was seen as performing miracles which even the Romans mentioned. They even said he had powers, but they saw him as a magician, and of course laughed at his statement of being the son of God.

a reply to: chr0naut

Look, even a very generous Christian site, in the conclusion, has to dismiss the Josephus texts as being to weak, due to textual inconsistencies, to bear the responsibility of of proving the existence of an historic Jesus "Christ", of Nazareth of the Son of Joseph.

a reply to: Prezbo369

In this thread I posted some of the evidence from non-Christian sources outside the bible that describe Jesus has having existed. If Jesus had not existed Roman historians in the 1st century would have used that as evidence against Christianity. But not even then did they, or anyone else denied his existence and that he was crucified under the orders of Pontius Pilate.

originally posted by: c0gN1t1v3D1ss0nanC3
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

42?

Show proof that there were 42 Christus, who were executed by Pontius Pilate, and the followes of these 42 Christus were named Christians after their names...

It is amazing that atheists want to claim Jesus didn't exist, that there is no mention of him outside the bible, yet when evidence is shown that there is evidence that the non-Christian Romans and others did write about Jesus as having existed, being crucified, having some strange powers and performing miracles, and what you offer is false claims which you can't corroborate.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

As you can see taking a few of the early reply's as an example the crowd of deniers already know this but they are intent on attacking Christian belief, in fact I often wonder at there true agenda or what cult they may be members of, do they really believe there master can equal god, are they that blind, yes they are and at least that mean's we will not have to share the truth with them as by there denial they have renounced there own salvation and that is what they gospel say's of them.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

If Jesus existed and was crucified by Pilot, according to the biblical narrative, he was crucified AFTER John the Baptist was beheaded, and we know that that happened in 36 CE, according to Josephus. www.josephus.org...

We have no record of Jesus' crucifixtion outside of the Bible, but we do have this:

In 36 CE, the governor of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, was confronted with a serious rebellion in Samaria.

For a man who made light of mendacity and in all his designs catered to the mob, rallied them, bidding them go in a body with him to Mount Gerizim, which in their belief is the most sacred of mountains. He assured them that on their arrival he would show them the sacred vessels which were buried there, where Moses had deposited them. His hearers, viewing this tale as plausible, appeared in arms. They posted themselves in a certain village named Tirathana, and, as they planned to climb the mountain in a great multitude, they welcomed to their ranks the new arrivals who kept coming. But before they could ascend, Pilate blocked their projected route up the mountain with a detachment of cavalry and heavily armed infantry, who in an encounter with the first comers in the village slew some in a pitched battle and put the others to flight. Many prisoners were taken, of whom Pilate put to death the principal leaders and those who were most influential among the fugitives.
[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.85-87]

That's a lot of people there, that Pilate put to death in the year 36 CE! Yet, no mention of Jesus Christ!

a reply to: awareness10

Names in different languages are spelled and said differently, even to this day.

For example my name Luis, in English is spelled Lewis or Louis. In English, and other languages it even sounds differently from what it sounds in my native language. Does that prove I don't exist?

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Show proof that there were 42 Christus

First of all Christus, is NOT the same as "Chrestus", which means "Good" man or name.

What is Serapis? (Origin of JESUS CHRIST)

Ptolemy’s rule was to create a deity that would be worshipped by both the Egyptians and the Greeks. He created “Serapis “, the made up Graeco-Egyptian god that was invented in the 3rd century B.C., portrayed as Greek in appearance, but with Egyptian accessories, representing both wealth and resurrection.

“Egypt, which you commended to me my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent and continually wafted about by every breath of fame. The worshippers of Serapis here are called Christians and those who are devoted to the god Serapis (I find) call themselves Bishops of Christ. Hadrian to Servianus 134 AD.”

If modern believers were truly sincere in their desire for a more intimate relationship with the Lord, they would immediately want to know and question why "early believers avoided" using the name Christian? When it is realized that even the very name Christian was in use prior to the time of Jesus, we truly begin to grasp the Pagan connection. The name Christian was a term employed to describe one who was an initiate, and understood the inner meaning of the Greek and Roman mystery religions.
nazirene.org...

a reply to: windword

Why claim there is no record when I excerpted non-Christian records from the first century that do mention Christ (Jesus) did exist, and was executed under order of Pontius Pilate?

Now the argument is that those documents are false? Can you show proof that they are false?

I am amazed at the excuses people come up with the deny the existence of Christ which even his enemies at the time mentioned as having existed...

If there had been proof that he wasn't real, the non-Christian Romans would have used that as evidence against Christianity, but they didn't. They referred to him as having existed, having returned to the region with strange powers and performing miracles, but the non-Christian Romans saw him as a magician, and they do mention Christ being crucified for his teachings under order of Pontius Pilate.

Faith is the trump card in all arguments.

I'm learning that once the faith card is pulled, I might as well bow out gracefully. No amount of logic can overcome that most powerful of cop outs.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Why claim there is no record when I excerpted non-Christian records from the first century that do mention Christ (Jesus) did exist, and was executed under order of Pontius Pilate?

No they don't mention Jesus. That's the one name that fails to show up.

You've got a generic "Chrestus", which is NOT the same title as Christus. Pilate killed hundreds of Jewish zealots, many of them claiming to be "The Messiah", which seemed to be quite a popular fad, in those days. Even you Bible has Jesus warning:

"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

So, why would you believe that an unruly, filthy, distasteful mob in Rome, claimed to be rioting over the abuse of a "Chrestus" (Good man), would represent followers of your Jesus? Good men were being killed like crazy by Pilate!

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

If there had been proof that he wasn't real, the non-Christian Romans would have used that as evidence against Christianity, but they didn't.

All documents and treaties that criticized, questioned, mocked or debated Christianity were destroyed by the Roman Catholic Church. But we do know that there were early Christians cults and sects that never believed in a terrestrial Jesus Christ, but believed in a celestial Jesus, The LOGOS, like the one Paul said he "saw". They were also "eliminated".

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I'll repost here as you ignored this on that other thread.

You wrote:

For example, the Roman historian and Senator Tacitus mentions the "execution of Christ" (Christus) as the beginning of Christianity, which he wrote in the "Annals" on book 15 chapter 44. This work was published in 116 AD, and is considered by historians as authentic and a non-Christian Roman source that verifies that Jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate.

... The Annals passage (15.44), which has been subjected to much scholarly analysis, follows a description of the six-day Great Fire of Rome that burned much of Rome in July 64 AD.[3] The key part of the passage reads as follows (translation from Latin by A. J. Church and W. J. Brodribb, 1876): "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind". (In Latin:[2] ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiablilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt.) ...

en.wikipedia.org...

My reply to you:

That passage by Tacitus is considered by historians / experts a hoax. Tacitus wrote about the vast multitudes of Christians that started the fire in Rome in 64AD. Well, I have news for you: in 64 CE there were no multitudes of Christians in Rome, there were not even multitudes of Christians in Judea, in fact the name Christians was not adopted until the following century.

Another big error which shows the passage was added centuries later is the fact that Tacitus was an imperial writer, he would have never called Jesus 'Christ' but by his full name.

Also, Pilate was a PREFECT, not a procurator, Tacitus of all people would have never ever made that mistake!! So Tacitus is not proof of the historical figure of Jesus.

a reply to: windword

The expulsion of the Jewish people by Claudius was because of the expansion of Christianity which was feared by those in power in Rome at the time.

The "intigation of Chrestus" that Suetonius mentioned could not refer to anyone else but Jesus the Christ, because Christ was the reason why Christianity became so widespread.

Suetonius just mispelled the name. The pagan Romans had disdain for Christ, and the fact is that despite claims of the contrary there is plenty of evidence from non-Christian sources that Jesus was mentioned as a real person. A person who had some strange powers, and performed miracles by the pagans saw him as a magician and did not believe he was the son of God.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Nope it does not, however you didn't apparently die for the sins of the entire human race either, so your name, your life, and what you did between age 12 and 33 is insignificant to me.I also did not need to verify you were conceived by an invisible sky god /entity.

a reply to: awareness10

I didn't claim to be Jesus... However the fact that Jesus name is spelled differently in other languages than in English does not corroborate your point. You simply are trying to come up with any excuse.

The Hebrew language doesn't have any vowels. Since in modern times it is not possible to pronounce Jesus/Yeshua without vowels changes have been made.

...
Yeshua is the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Joshua.” Iesous is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Jesus.” Thus, the names “Joshua” and “Jesus” are essentially the same; both are English pronunciations of the Hebrew and Greek names for our Lord. (For examples of how the two names are interchangeable, see Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8 in the KJV. In both cases, the word Jesus refers to the Old Testament character Joshua.)
...

Read more: www.gotquestions.org...

In other languages Jesus' name sounds differently than in English. Again, you are trying to use semantics as an excuse.

originally posted by: Agartha

My reply to you:

That passage by Tacitus is considered by historians / experts a hoax. Tacitus wrote about the vast multitudes of Christians that started the fire in Rome in 64AD. Well, I have news for you: in 64 CE there were no multitudes of Christians in Rome, there were not even multitudes of Christians in Judea, in fact the name Christians was not adopted until the following century.

Another big error which shows the passage was added centuries later is the fact that Tacitus was an imperial writer, he would have never called Jesus 'Christ' but by his full name.

Also, Pilate was a PREFECT, not a procurator, Tacitus of all people would have never ever made that mistake!! So Tacitus is not proof of the historical figure of Jesus.

Do you actually have "evidence" to corroborate this latest claim you are making?

Some scholars make claims simply because like some people here, they don't want to accept Jesus Christ existence. However the majority of scholars/experts say the mention of Tacitus of Jesus, that his followers were named Christians after his name, and that he was crucified are considered as "authentic" by most scholars.

...
Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[5][6][7] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[8] However, Richard Carrier has suggested that the 'Christ, the author of this name, was executed by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius' line is a Christian interpolation.[9][10]

Historian Ronald Mellor has stated that the Annals is "Tacitus's crowning achievement" which represents the "pinnacle of Roman historical writing".[11] Scholars view it as establishing three separate facts about Rome around AD 60: (i) that there were a sizable number of Christians in Rome at the time, (ii) that it was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews in Rome, and (iii) that at the time pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome and its origin in Roman Judea.[12][13] These facts however are so narrowly established (see Other Roman Sources below) that they are subject to much scrutiny, like reports of Pilate's rank or the spelling of key words or Tacitus' actual sources.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

it is evident that some people will simply make claims that any and every evidence that will be provided is a hoax because they simply don't want to accept what the evidence states.

As for whether Pontius Pilate was a Prefect or a procurator...

...
Prefect of Judea

In 26 A.D. the Roman Emperor Tiberius appointed Pontius Pilate prefect of the Roman provinces of Judaea, Samaria and Idumæa, although Pilate is best known for his leadership of Judaea. While the typical term for a Roman prefect was 1–3 years, Pilate was to hold his post as the fifth Roman procurator for 10 years. In assuming his position, Pontius Pilate succeeded Valerius Gratus.
...

www.biography.com...

...
Though by definition the procurators were prefects,...

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The "intigation of Chrestus" that Suetonius mentioned could not refer to anyone else but Jesus the Christ, because Christ was the reason why Christianity became so widespread.

This is where you're misinformed and wrong. There are plenty of individuals who were called "Christs" and "Chrestus'", as has been demonstrated. Christianity, as it was later called, was NOT widespread in Rome during the reign of Claudius, 41-54. But there were plenty of uprisings and killings of "Good" zealot men.

Suetonius just mispelled the name.

Say the Christian apolgetics that want to shoehorn facts to fit their premise.

The pagan Romans had disdain for Christ

Citation needed. "Christ" is a title that Pagan Romans were currently using in their own cults. They were called "Christians". Paul and his ilk were referred to as Nazarene at the time of the Jewish expulsion of Rome.