Has Islam become idolatrous

a reply to: THELONIO

i was deployed to southern afghan in 2011. my job was to transport detainees from small fobs and pb's in the AO to the processing detention facility at camp dwyer and we took shifts guarding them while we were housing them. from my experience the vast majority of our detainees were illiterate. all of them were Muslim. we were required to have available a Qur' an for them to read. they would sit for hours rocking back and forth mumbling something incoherent (prayer probably) they would lift the book up and kiss the pages. some of them wouldn't even turn the pages. i would call this idolatry. buy i wouldn't say all Muslim people do this. i can only speak from experience.

a reply to: crustyjuggler27

thank you for your input, do you think as people, if they had a better education then maybe it would of been different to what you experienced

a reply to: crustyjuggler27

Many have the Quran memorized word for word .. they even have competions on reciting it ..

a reply to: THELONIO

i think the region in general would be much better off if there was a solid foundation of education. most of the people we picked up were farmers who put a bomb in the ground because the Taliban said they would murder their family and would not get to heaven.

a reply to: Expat888

i have never heard of it. if these people i saw had it memorized then it was a third party dictation of it because they could not read it for themselves. so really if they did have it memorized in that way how can they be certain they had the words right.

a reply to: crustyjuggler27

it rings of prior to the bible being printed in english, the followers no longer required the learned priests

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: ketsuko

You forgot to consider that Islam by definition means submission to God...

So what are we defending if not Allah when we defend Islam.





As to your examples...
Images of the prophet or desecration of the Quran...
That is subjective...
Some will protest loudly...
Some will protest violently...

Some, like myself, will amuse myself with thoughts of a lack of imagination at the hands of the transgressor.

If people get kicks out of that, I'll let Allah decide what should happen.

To me, it says more about their lack of creativity than anything else...
So they have my prayers.

No I understand that Islam means submission to God. Just I understand that if you follow the word "repent" to its ancient roots, it means something more akin to yoking yourself to God's will and way rather than your own which is similar to submitting. When we repent, it means we recognize we have been following our own way and not God's and seek to rededicate ourselves to God's way and His will.

However, I think the difference lies in how Muslims and Christians view what God's will and God's way ultimately mean and are. God doesn't need me to riot or take vengeance in His name. He is well capable to His own judgments. So someone burns a BIble or immerses the cross in urine ... names a Teddy Bear Jesus - disrespectful? Offensive? Worth rioting and murdering over? No. God will set it right in the end, and it is for Him to judge.

I guess maybe the main difference is that I believe as a Christian that God wants people to choose to follow Him of their own will. From what I have seen, much of Islam believes they have a commission to not only submit themselves but compel others to submit or be submitted in Allah's name. It's the collective salvation doctrine in a way.

a reply to: ketsuko

I guess maybe the main difference is that I believe as a Christian that God wants people to choose to follow Him of their own will. From what I have seen, much of Islam believes they have a commission to not only submit themselves but compel others to submit or be submitted in Allah's name.

this is an interesting angle. As a christian, do you feel that your religion is a good representation of your god or can you see hypocrisies that you choose to navigate around or choose your own path, please understand that i mean no offence, i am trying to learn about peoples religious choices and decisions,
many thanks

...

I have to admit, the OP angered me a little. There are so many misunderstandings & assumptions in it that I didn't even know if I should respond to it. But I ate a snack, mellowed out, and decided to respond.

1st, "shirk" is the only unforgivable sin in Islam, so Islam & idolatry are literally incompatible.

2nd, "Islam" is simply "submission to God". "Muslim" simply means "one who submits to God". That's it. There's no trick to it or complication. So when Muslims defend Islam, we're literally defending our submission to God. How is that idolatrous in any way? Think about that for a second. Our religion is literally built on improving our standings with God. Of course people are going to get mad if someone attacks their purpose in life.

3rd, you can't label all or even most Muslims under one brush or the argument will fall flat. There are many different denominations in Islam, as well as different schools of thought within those denominations. And there are different interpretations within those schools of thought. And there's no single "Sharia" (which simply means "law"). Every region, culture, and denomination has their own Sharia, which is derived from the Qur'an, the Hadith & Sunna they follow, their denomination's interpretations of the previous 3, and any local traditions which don't contradict with the first 3. So is it possible that there's a sect or regional culture that "is becoming close to idolatry"? Maybe. But you can't begin to label all or even most Muslim as such.

I'll be glad to answer any other questions, though I'm juggling some projects so it may take a short while for a response.

originally posted by: crustyjuggler27
a reply to: Expat888

i have never heard of it. if these people i saw had it memorized then it was a third party dictation of it because they could not read it for themselves. so really if they did have it memorized in that way how can they be certain they had the words right.

As for people in Afghanistan who memorized parts of the Qur'an but couldn't read it. Let me clear up an obvious misunderstanding. Modern Arabic is like a shorthand, cursive version of the original Arabic. Vowels are implied and you get the point through context. It would be the equivalent of typing "sndmssg". Does that mean "send message" or "sand massage"?

The Holy Qur'an, on the other hand, is written in a poetic form of the original Arabic, which lists every syllable, punctuation marks, symbols which show which syllable to accent, etc. So many modern Arabic speakers can't read the Qur'an without training (it's like comparing American English slang to Shakespeare). Then add the fact that Arabic isn't even a native language in Aghanistan (Pashto & Dari are). So yes, the average poor Afghan citizen won't be able to read the Qur'an itself without more training. However, God made the Qur'an very rhythmic & easy to learn through recitation. And several Suras in the Qur'an are very short, like 4-6 lines of poetry. So it's very common for Muslims to know how to recite passages from the Qur'an without being able to read the Qur'an itself.

Also, we don't idolize the Qur'an but we respect it completely. We believe it's the literal words of God. And since our whole religion is based on submitting to God, it makes sense that we'd hold His direct teachings as very valuable. And some poor people around the world don't have access to the internet or other free copies of the Qur'an, so they may value it even more than others.

originally posted by: THELONIO
a reply to: ketsuko

I guess maybe the main difference is that I believe as a Christian that God wants people to choose to follow Him of their own will. From what I have seen, much of Islam believes they have a commission to not only submit themselves but compel others to submit or be submitted in Allah's name.

this is an interesting angle. As a christian, do you feel that your religion is a good representation of your god or can you see hypocrisies that you choose to navigate around or choose your own path, please understand that i mean no offence, i am trying to learn about peoples religious choices and decisions,
many thanks

That's not true though. There's no compulsion in Islam. The 2nd Sura (revelation) in the Qur'an makes that perfectly clear. quran.com...

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

I guess it depends on your defintion of an idol first...

Do some muslims direct their prayers directly or indirectly at a giant lifeless black box located in Mecca? - yes they do....
Do some people consider that idolatry- yes they do

idolatry is defined per www.merriam-webster.com...

"the worship of a picture or object as a god"

Its a perspective thing i suppose.

a reply to: THELONIO

originally posted by: wyrmboy12
I guess it depends on your defintion of an idol first...

Do some muslims direct their prayers directly or indirectly at a giant lifeless black box located in Mecca? - yes they do....
Do some people consider that idolatry- yes they do

idolatry is defined per www.merriam-webster.com...

"the worship of a picture or object as a god"

Its a perspective thing i suppose.

a reply to: THELONIO

All Muslims pray towards the Kaaba because the Qur'an tells us to. quran.com...

We don't worship or idolize the Kaaba lol. We focus our prayers towards it. It is a building dedicated to God, built by the Prophet Abraham and one of his sons. It's also one of the central places we visit during Hajj, which is the required pilgrimage for all Muslims.

"We focus our prayers towards it" is the same thing as praying directly to it I would argue. Do muslims practice idolatry, yes im sure some do as do christians who pray to the crucified image of Jesus...and other religions...All I was trying to say is its all a matter of perspective on what one defines as idolatry... a reply to: enlightenedservant

a reply to: wyrmboy12

So basically you pay attention to what you want & ignore what you want? We focus our prayers to it, as in we point towards it. I directly stated we don't idolize or worship it. I even linked a verse in the Qur'an which explains it. I guess during services, Christians idolize the pulpits in their churches because they face that direction during prayers?

Also, we've already stated several times in this very thread that Islam is strictly the submission to God. And I earlier linked a basic article over "shirk", which is the only unforgivable sin in Islam. So how you can still claim differently is part baffling & part ridiculous.

If you don't want to believe that, it's fine. But don't project that onto us.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

please dont be angry, i never intended to offend, I am trying to learn.
why are their so many different branches of islam?, wouldnt that point towards errors in understanding of the quran?
you must understand that I am coming from a view point that has no concept of their being a god, it appears to me that in order to surrender and better ones revereence of Allah that a muslim must move past / transcend the teachings/ lessons of the quran, discard the hadiths (these are made by man and not the words of god) and take their religious beliefs to the next level of understanding, why would islam require a caliph/ pope to direct people in their relationship with Allah, who or what is Allah to you, do you see him/her as an omnipitent being, how do you know that what you are following is a true and just god?, are muslims open to the idea that mohammed may have been duped, I mean no offence in asking these questions. with reference to my op, it still seems to me that as islam has evolved, as with any religion it cannot help but become hijacked by deviant people and used as a tool of power and control, it is at that point when it, in my eyes would lean towards idolatry, when a muslim dies in jihad his motivations are what will decide his fate, did he do it for glory, virgins, fear etc., or a true love of Allah.

please do not be offended by what i have written, i mean no disrespect
salam

a reply to: THELONIO

Ok, I think I've got it. I'll try to answer you as best I can.

please dont be angry, i never intended to offend, I am trying to learn.
why are their so many different branches of islam?, wouldnt that point towards errors in understanding of the quran?

The best way I can answer that is by linking you to this thread I made. It goes over the basic histories of the largest denominations (except Sufism & Quranists). www.abovetopsecret.com...

you must understand that I am coming from a view point that has no concept of their being a god, it appears to me that in order to surrender and better ones revereence of Allah that a muslim must move past / transcend the teachings/ lessons of the quran, discard the hadiths (these are made by man and not the words of god) and take their religious beliefs to the next level of understanding,

I think the misunderstanding here is the nature of the Qur'an & Islam as a whole. We believe the Qur'an is the literal words of God, not of the Prophet Muhammad. In fact, the Prophet could neither read nor write so he had to have others write it down as it was revealed to him. This was intentional so that no one who knew him could claim that the intricate & rhythmic Qur'an was composed by him (some revelations are 200+ lines long). So there's no trancending the lessons of the Qur'an. As for Sunna & Hadith, different sects consider different Sunna & Hadith as valid or interpret them differently.

why would islam require a caliph/ pope to direct people in their relationship with Allah,

We don't require a Caliph. I don't think there's been an acknowledged one since around the fall of the Ottoman Empire. We don't believe a spiritual leader "directs people in their relationship with Allah" either. Islam is a personal journey. We're all in the same boat and will all face judgment on Judgment Day. Though many times we seek clarification from Muslims who are more learned than we are (like Imams/"preachers"). Also, a Caliph isn't mandated by the Qur'an and the Caliph position was intended to basically be the Head of State of the Islamic Empire & to keep it intact.

who or what is Allah to you, do you see him/her as an omnipitent being, how do you know that what you are following is a true and just god?

Since Islam is completely voluntary, the answer to that will vary depending on the person you ask. We definitely believe He is omnipotent & just, though. To me, God is my tutor, friend, and the one I admire the most. He's guided me through my life, chastised me when I did wrong, but also blessed me in ways I can't explain. I still don't understand why He helps me so much because I'm such a flawed individual; not that I'm complaining

are muslims open to the idea that mohammed may have been duped

Nope. Though I think you're misunderstanding something about Islam. Islam didn't start w/the Prophet Muhammad. In fact, he is the Final Messenger of Islam, not its founder. We believe the 1st human Muslims were Adam & Eve, and that all of God's Prophets are Muslims. Remember, a Muslim is simply someone who submits to God. The 4 most revered Prophets according to the Qur'an are Musa/Moses, Dawood/David, Isa/Jesus, and Muhammad. And the Prophet Musa/Moses is the most mentioned Prophet in the Qur'an. In fact, the 2nd Sura/Revelation of the Qur'an speaks a lot on the golden calf the Israelites worshiped while Moses was away (it's called "al-Baqarah", meaning "The Cow" or "The Calf"). I mentioned that so you'd understand that our faith goes much deeper than any particular Prophet.

I mean no offence in asking these questions. with reference to my op, it still seems to me that as islam has evolved, as with any religion it cannot help but become hijacked by deviant people and used as a tool of power and control,

To be fair, any idea can be hijacked for negative purposes. The problem is when people blame or label the majority because of the sins of the few.

Hope that helps

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Many thanks, its going to take me a little while to absorb and look into your points, it is nice to have a conversation on ATS without it degenerating into an argument for a change.

salam

originally posted by: ketsuko
You miss the point. It's asking whether Islam itself has become the idol. It gets defended with all the fervor that some might think an actual deity ought to be defended.

So the question is - When an entity like ISIS does what it does, when all those Muslims pour into the streets because of cartoons or a rumor of what might have happened to a Koran ... are they defending Allah or are they defending Islam? Which do they love more? Allah or Islam?

I think perhaps the thread diverged a little at this point without questioning the fundamental point implicit in what you wrote:
Who said that God needs to be defended?
Does God need to be defended?

Does Islam (or any religion) need to be defended?
What does "Defending Islam" mean? Initially, in the time of the Prophet Muhammad, when the religion hadn't been completed yet, and the entirety of the adherents could fit in a small room, some might argue it might have needed defending then. But now?

People often accuse me of "Defending Islam" or "Engaging in apologetics" (without explaining what they mean and in what sense they're taking it, as if simply saying it in a nasty way makes it something nasty), but I don't believe that to be what I do. If someone states something that I know to be wrong, I enter at that point in the conversation and address that point. If they're honest with themselves, and their initial statement was simply something they thought they learnt correctly (as opposed to something they learnt intentionally to support a viewpoint they already had), then they might be "Oh, really? Okay, never mind that, then!". If not, they might ignore my point or accuse me of defending Islam.

I HAVE engaged in a couple of debates that related to certain religions or religious points, but I made sure that all parties involved knew exactly what was going on, and on my part, it was mostly just a mental exercise.