Wagenknecht: EU policy has destroyed Ukraine and damaged Europe

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: bullcat

I passionately believe that she should be free to say whatever she wants... even if she has the judgement of a zombie.

So what she said was wrong ?

The United States did not violate Ukraine's territorial integrity. Russia did. Putin started World War Three. Period.

Absolutely. Russia violated the terms of the Budapest Memorandum. If the other signatories fail to react appropriately, the entire structure of of international diplomacy will collapse...exactly as it did in 1914.

So did America, remember Nuland? Now we have Biden on the boards of gas companies in Ukraine.

The United States did not violate Ukraine's territorial integrity. Russia did.

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: bullcat

I passionately believe that she should be free to say whatever she wants... even if she has the judgement of a zombie.

So what she said was wrong ?

The United States did not violate Ukraine's territorial integrity. Russia did. Putin started World War Three. Period.

Absolutely. Russia violated the terms of the Budapest Memorandum. If the other signatories fail to react appropriately, the entire structure of of international diplomacy will collapse...exactly as it did in 1914.

So did America, remember Nuland? Now we have Biden on the boards of gas companies in Ukraine.

The United States did not violate Ukraine's territorial integrity. Russia did.

www.dw.de...

It seems the memorandum was so full of holes, that nobody broke it, really.

You disagree with these experts? You should write a paper and publish it to them to see.

I look forward to reading it, you may submit it to me for proof reading I would like that.

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: bullcat

I passionately believe that she should be free to say whatever she wants... even if she has the judgement of a zombie.

So what she said was wrong ?

The United States did not violate Ukraine's territorial integrity. Russia did. Putin started World War Three. Period.

Absolutely. Russia violated the terms of the Budapest Memorandum. If the other signatories fail to react appropriately, the entire structure of of international diplomacy will collapse...exactly as it did in 1914.

So did America, remember Nuland? Now we have Biden on the boards of gas companies in Ukraine.

The United States did not violate Ukraine's territorial integrity. Russia did.

www.dw.de...

It seems the memorandum was so full of holes, that nobody broke it, really.

Wrong. It was weak and vague, but what Putin did violated both the letter and the spirit. Russian boys are already dying because Putin thinks he's Catherine the Great. If you live in Russia, get out before the American elections are over and the bombs start falling.

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: bullcat

I passionately believe that she should be free to say whatever she wants... even if she has the judgement of a zombie.

So what she said was wrong ?

The United States did not violate Ukraine's territorial integrity. Russia did. Putin started World War Three. Period.

Absolutely. Russia violated the terms of the Budapest Memorandum. If the other signatories fail to react appropriately, the entire structure of of international diplomacy will collapse...exactly as it did in 1914.

So did America, remember Nuland? Now we have Biden on the boards of gas companies in Ukraine.

The United States did not violate Ukraine's territorial integrity. Russia did.

www.dw.de...

It seems the memorandum was so full of holes, that nobody broke it, really.

Wrong. It was weak and vague, but what Putin did violated both the letter and the spirit. Russian boys are already dying because Putin thinks he's Catherine the Great. If you live in Russia, get out before the American elections are over and the bombs start falling.

Can you give a break down of each statement in the Memorandum and who violated it and which action they took violated it? Dates would also assist in clarification.

It would greatly clarify it.

Thanks in advance.

Be sure to cite the PRIMARY sources, not secondary.

It is obviously your area of expertise. Not mine to be honest, I would help educate us on the matter.

a reply to: bullcat

I'll get back to you when I have time in the morning.

a reply to: bullcat

In exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons the US, Russia et al guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity.


Wiki - Budapest Agreement

According to the memorandum, Russia, the U.S., and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:
1.Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
2.Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
3.Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
4.Seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, "if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
5.Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
6.Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.[13][14]

So far Russia has violated all but #5 The bolded part is added by me as it specifies Crimea as belonging to Ukraine.

Russia also violated its own laws on Ukraine and Crimea from 1954 when the Soviet government transferred it to Ukraine. That was later reaffirmed in the Budapest agreement.

wiki - annexation of crima b russia

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: bullcat

In exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons the US, Russia et al guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity.


Wiki - Budapest Agreement

According to the memorandum, Russia, the U.S., and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:
1.Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
2.Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
3.Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
4.Seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, "if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
5.Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
6.Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.[13][14]

So far Russia has violated all but #5 The bolded part is added by me as it specifies Crimea as belonging to Ukraine.

Russia also violated its own laws on Ukraine and Crimea from 1954 when the Soviet government transferred it to Ukraine. That was later reaffirmed in the Budapest agreement.

wiki - annexation of crima b russia

also point
3) Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.

I think Nuland's cookie squad violated that one. How much money did they pump into cooercing Ukraine?

a reply to: bullcat

From the end of the USSR to current times -

USAid - Ukraine

$5 billion..

Convenient you guys like to make this claim yet refuse to place it into context.

Russia invaded Ukraine in violation of the UN charter, the Budapest document and their own internal law.

a reply to: bullcat

Can you give a break down of each statement in the Memorandum and who violated it and which action they took violated it? Dates would also assist in clarification.

It would greatly clarify it.

Thanks in advance.

Be sure to cite the PRIMARY sources, not secondary.

It is obviously your area of expertise. Not mine to be honest, I would help educate us on the matter.

The Russians have been using a very narrow reading of the written text of the memorandum to dispute the claims that they have violated it. Here are highlights of the text, verbatim:

1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine;

A/49/765 Annex 1 para. 1[Emphasis mine, DJW001]

Russia here agrees to respect the borders of Ukraine as they existed at the time of the treaty. At that time, Crimea was a part of Ukraine. In 1991 a Ukrainian of Russian descent name Yuri Meshkov declared himself President of the Autonomous Crimean Republic. When the majority of Crimeans ousted him, he fled to Russia. This does not prove that Russia engineered the coup, but it is suggestive. In any event, by annexing Crimea recently, Russia has violated the letter of para. 1 of the Memorandum.

2. [The signitories] reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;

When Russian special forces troops appeared in the streets of Crimea, they constituted the threat of force.





Here is the relevant part of the UN Charter:

1. No State has the right to intervene, directly or indirectly, for any reason whatever, in the internal or external affairs of any State. Consequently, armed intervention and all other forms of interference or attempted threats against the personality of the State or against its political, economic and cultural elements, are condemned.

UN Resolution 2131 (XX)

Russia claims that the presence of NGOs, trade delegations and diplomatic personnel was a violation of this Resolution by the West. However, these missions are in keeping with the purpose of the United Nations itself:

To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and

To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.

UN Charter, Article 1

The Russians claim that these legitimate humanitarian and erconomic missions violate paragraph three of the Memorandum:

3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind;

Russia construes economic investment as "coercion." Here is the definition of coercion:

Coercion
The intimidation of a victim to compel the individual to do some act against his or her will by the use of psychological pressure, physical force, or threats. The crime of intentionally and unlawfully restraining another's freedom by threatening to commit a crime, accusing the victim of a crime, disclosing any secret that would seriously impair the victim's reputation in the community, or by performing or refusing to perform an official action lawfully requested by the victim, or by causing an official to do so.

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...

Russia has never elucidated why it believes that the various NGOs and trade missions were engaged in making economic threats, or forcing Ukrainian politicians and business people to do things against their will. On the other hand, threatening to shut off Ukraine's natural gas, as Putin did in February, is coercion in its most blatant form.

I am running out of space for this post, but not that I have provided you with a link to the actual document, you might want to peruse it. Sergei Lavrov was being disingenuous when he implied that the document only covered nuclear aggression.

originally posted by: defiythelie
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

I really do not see how America is a threat to Europe over Russia. I mean just look back at the last 100 years. Which country has damaged Europe the most out of the US and Russia. The answer to that is Russia. There is a reason the ex-soviet satellite countries went running to join NATO once the USSR fell. That reason is that those countries know fully the horrors that Russia can impose once it has taken over your country.

You're almost right, but 'Russia' isn't an individual with memory and a personality. 'Russia' is imaginary. It is an idea. It's a bunch of dirt with imaginary borders of thin air. What's real are PEOPLE.

Russia doesn't 'impose horrors', people do. And the people who led the USSR are long gone. Yes some leaders still have some similar ideas, but just remember, Nations are full of PEOPLE. People just like you, just like me, who work jobs to pay for their food and buy their kids nice things.

Round up the damn leaders and let them kill each other in the poppy fields for OUR ENTERTAINMENT for once!!

a reply to: DJW001

Excellent post, shows just how ridiculous the thread title is.

a reply to: Polarization

No it`s not, he completely ignores (as usual) that the Budapest Memorandum got broken with the US coup before, and because of that Russia had to act to protect its strategic interests.

So once it got broken by one of the parties involved (the US), the whole memorandum became totally worthless, which means, jabbering about Russia breaking it just utterly ridiculous.

Those little "green" men may scare you but to the residents there, they probably welcomed them.

What scares you, may not scare others.

It doesn't affect you sitting in your luxury chair in front of your computer being a keyboard warrior, it affects them.

YOU nor I have no idea what they want nor think. It is up to them to solve their own problems. So far it seems and appears they DID want them there.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

No it`s not, he completely ignores (as usual) that the Budapest Memorandum got broken with the US coup before, and because of that Russia had to act to protect its strategic interests.

So once it got broken by one of the parties involved (the US), the whole memorandum became totally worthless, which means, jabbering about Russia breaking it just utterly ridiculous.

The only problem being: there was no coup! A corrupt President fled and an interim government arranged elections in accordance with the Constitution. The far right parties lost and the three Svoboda ministers resigned. Remember?

a reply to: bullcat

Those little "green" men may scare you but to the residents there, they probably welcomed them.

What choice did they have?

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

No it`s not, he completely ignores (as usual) that the Budapest Memorandum got broken with the US coup before, and because of that Russia had to act to protect its strategic interests.

You love to throw that coup word up as much as you can, and yet have been able to provide evidence that the US was behind one in Ukraine.

But it seems you are just fine with what Russia was doing in Ukraine while Yanukovych was in office...why is that?

So once it got broken by one of the parties involved (the US), the whole memorandum became totally worthless, which means, jabbering about Russia breaking it just utterly ridiculous.

So when exactly did the US violate that memorandum and how did they do it, because remember you have yet to produce evidence( that doesn't come from Russian media ) to back your claims?

a reply to: DJW001

Bla, Bla, Bla...

Head of Stratfor, ‘Private CIA’, Says Overthrow of Yanukovych Was ‘The Most Blatant Coup in History’

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: DJW001

Bla, Bla, Bla...

Head of Stratfor, ‘Private CIA’, Says Overthrow of Yanukovych Was ‘The Most Blatant Coup in History’

Of course you have to link to a webpage that takes his comment out of context: He was discussing the conflicting strategic goals of Russia and the United States. I have yet to see what language this interview was conducted in, because it is clear that he was referring to Russia's perceptions of the situation. Russia considered the United States' support for the Maidan movement as being a blatant coup. This does not mean that Friedman himself considers it as such.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: Polarization

No it`s not, he completely ignores (as usual) that the Budapest Memorandum got broken with the US coup before, and because of that Russia had to act to protect its strategic interests.

So once it got broken by one of the parties involved (the US), the whole memorandum became totally worthless, which means, jabbering about Russia breaking it just utterly ridiculous.

Until you can demonstrate that the Americans are responsible for a coup in Ukraine you are being ridiculous.

Thread title should read : Putins policy has destroyed Ukraine and damaged Russia.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: DJW001

Bla, Bla, Bla...

Head of Stratfor, ‘Private CIA’, Says Overthrow of Yanukovych Was ‘The Most Blatant Coup in History’

The same bs argument about Stratford was tried here -
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It failed then and still does now. Secondly you need to educate yourself on the difference between a news article and an editorial, which is what your link is.