Can there be recognition of what is - beyond any and all experiencing?

a reply to: bb23108

well put

truly all things are modifications, whether physical phenomena or mental and emotional effluents, of emptiness. Although emptiness is a word which confuses, I'd rather call it pure potentiality; as emptiness denotes fullness, and formlessness denotes form. This is a kind of emptiness that is completely and irrevocably full of all things that could be, and it only takes time and space to extract exact qualities and conditions for objects to appear. Though pure potential and form exist in unison, otherwise there would be non-existence. This is the great unity, and grants us the understanding that is needed in order to investigate and cultivate a discerning mind which is capable of cutting away needless suffering.

with this type of understanding which is a temporal and non local, we come to see that the conditions for awareness and mind existing have always existed, this is also a great unity realized. when we understand that there truly is no past or future, but only the present, we see that mind and awareness have always been, along with form and formlessness; for what is currently can never come from non-existence.

How they are expressed is what we are currently taking part in, how they are known we are currently taking part in. Knowing is of picking apart the particulars and understanding; this takes separation, this takes the conscious observer acting with attentiveness and concentration. So, in this way we see the great unity in pure potential, action and reaction, mind, awareness, discernment and knowledge, you and I.

Question: do we have a soul? if the answer is yes define it please

Question 2: does 'ultimate mind/gods mind/substrate of all reality' whatever you want to call it know and understand this wisdom?

a reply to: preludefanguy
I am seeing that we are considering this in ways that are more similar than I thought at first. And thanks for this clarification of your use of the word 'emptiness' and also 'pure potentiality'. Your explanation is very interesting to me.

Do you consider 'pure potentiality" as acausal Being-Force or more in terms of cause-and-effect Energy?

It's funny to just now read your post, as I have been considering this all evening and even re-read some of my favorite literature regarding this matter - in the hopes of being able to summarize my take on this as succinctly as possible. As I have mentioned in the past, I find Adi Da Samraj's "Perfect Philosophy: The 'Radical' Way of No-Ideas" to be an excellent resource, as well as other sources relative to non-dualism I have considered for many years.

So in an attempt to be less long-winded and also in an attempt to answer your two questions ...

In Reality, the entire universe is a unified Whole - its totality is a singularity, without any point-of-view.

Whenever a point-of-view mechanism (e.g., attention) is animated, time and space are created relative to that position in the Whole (the Singularity that the entire universe actually is in Reality).

From the position of any assumed point-of-view, universal awareness has identified with a mechanism of attention as the perceiver and thereby objectifies all in its view. This yields multiplicity in time and space, and the illusion of objectification and separation.

Lifetimes of reinforcing one's point-of-view mechanism (attention) as the "self" or "soul" or "I", results in universal awareness forgetting its Source as Consciousness, Reality Itself, and awareness identifies more and more with the body-mind.

With our body-minds reinforcing this same presumption (that we are only the perceiving body-mind), we believe this illusion that Reality is objectively the case, that time and space are a given, and that objects are separate, discreet, material things.

In other words, Reality's Singularity (Unity) is replaced by the illusion of objectivity, multiplicity, and separateness.

To reply to your second question:

Yes, Reality perfectly "knows" what everything is, regardless of what point-of-view may be occurring, because everything is a modification of that Singularity or Unity, and nothing is actually ever separated from Reality. So Reality perfectly "knows" us because It is us. However, this knowledge is not from any point-of-view - Reality is not the ulitmate perceiver, observer, etc. Reality is the non-separate acausal Witness of all.

a reply to: bb23108

YES

but I differ in my stance against 'reality' knowing and understanding

my argument is because there is no point of view which can understand the whole, it takes us (the particulars) to extract the particular knowledge and understanding of what is becoming, so the one being is in unison with the whole, and the whole in unison with the being, and they help define each other, one by being the mechanism in which pure potential can express itself and be known, and the other by being able to give rise to a consciousness which can turn inwards and see itself for what it is: empty

so the whole, can in a way 'know' what it is, but it takes the individual to understand it, without the individual there is no point of reference for any of it to build upon, so therefore it cannot be understood, extracted, truly known

the passive witness contains all but it does not discriminate, it cannot know, also, ignorance is needed for creation to begin anyways, by ignorance we find ourselves becoming

so naming it a 'passive' witness is also misleading, there is no witness, the witness becomes, but yet, there is always mind, more subtle than witnessing anything

this is why it is a special thing to be a human capable of coming to this understanding and wisdom, if this understanding and wisdom were actively held by the 'passive witness' we simply would cease to be, yet this wisdom and understanding has always existed in potential

a reply to: bb23108

to think of pure potential as a being or a force is to assign it quality, it is without quality, truly empty

to think of pure potential as cause and effect energy is to give it quality

these things are what become, pure potential are all things inverse, when the energy of cause and effect dissipate and become cool

it has no cause, and really no effect, but by being fundamental to all things, it finds itself in the things that give cause to dependent arising of all things, again, they are in unison, and one is not before the other

things do not 'come' from there, it is very difficult to explain in language, it is not a place or a state, it is stateless, thingless, but allows all things to be through impermanence, inherit emptiness

a reply to: preludefanguy
There is only Reality, we are that same One, but we have limited ourselves to and by the belief that we are individuated souls or knowers because of our identification with attention.

Only Reality can perfectly know the whole because it is not just a passive Witness - it IS all modifications, beyond any limited point of view and partial understanding.

It is the prior Conscious Light that we also are, but we have assumed this association with attention and called it our own individuality. That is an illusion that must be transcended for perfect knowledge of the Real. We do not then dissolve in Light but likely continue as body-minds, still understanding in our limited ways and points-of-view, but fundamentally free in the Source of all.

We are completely unified with the Love-Bliss of Reality, its Absolute Unknowing (or Divine Ignorance) that perfectly Knows all.

Reality is Living Being - the intrinsic acausal Force of Love and Life itself. It is most intimate with us - as it IS all of this, not just passively witnessing or observing it.

a reply to: bb23108

yes, but this is a sort of 'collective' consciousness, it is an act, a force, a will, a concentrating and extracting to have wisdom and understanding

there can be this collective, but by its own nature, it is also impermanent

there is no 'knower' in the supreme form, it can only be broken down and analyzed

to believe in this knower, is to have not only a form of dualism hanging over one's head, but also an avenue for craving, clinging to an eternal form and thus propagates the cycles of death and rebirth

pure potential has its knowledge and wisdom found within the particulars paying attention

it is inherently empty of self, or a knowing witness

it is like the seed of a beautiful flower, it takes time and place for that seed to sprout, grow and unfurl its beauty to the world, so does the knowledge and wisdom take time to sprout grow and unfurl its beauty to the world

it has always been, but not known

originally posted by: preludefanguy
there is no 'knower' in the supreme form, it can only be broken down and analyzed

to believe in this knower, is to have not only a form of dualism hanging over one's head, but also an avenue for craving, clinging to an eternal form and thus propagates the cycles of death and rebirth

Reality is not a "knower" knowing objects of knowledge, etc. It "Knows" by the very means of Being all that is. Conventional knowledge is known by knowers in these apparently conditional worlds - Reality is not separate from any of this, and therefore perfectly "knows" all of this.

Reality also knows conventional knowledge because Reality is us, the ones who know conventional knowledge. Reality is always the perfect Singularity never separate - regardless of what we fake individuals like to presume about multiplicity, time, space, point-of-view, all the comings and goings, impermanence, etc.

But no, there is no Creator-God with some super-brain that knows all things in the manner our brain-mind knows things. Reality perfectly knows through Being non-separate Conscious Light, the very Witness of all.

This is hard to describe - it is truly a heart matter.

a reply to: bb23108

I think in a way we are agreeing

however, reality is empty of any point of view, any self, so it cannot hold knowledge in point of view to itself, it does not have a frame of reference to understand

we do, we can truly know what there is to know

but 'mind' and 'matter' exist within pure potential, it is inherent to all things

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no ultimate being that knows all things, the things are there, but there is no knower, no doer

all things arise naturally, dependent upon one another, we as observers can come to know, we are reality's sense media, its memories, it's gateways into becoming

a singularity has no property which acts as a point of reference to know itself, even in totality, and in any case, reality is always morphing and changing, knowledge is the act of summarizing what there is to know and is an act held within time, this singularity of reality and non-reality is not held within time

anything that 'parses' reality to 'know' even to come to know a collective of individuals is still limited, by way of measuring and knowing there is a limitation set, reality is limitless

it is beyond being and non-being

a reply to: bb23108

one thing I would like to make clear at this time

being always implies a form of intelligence, because the act of being is caused by certain conditions that arise by an intelligence fixated upon certain causes and conditions, this accumulates knowledge, and is another form of measurement by way of a consciousness existing moment to moment

because there is no being, there is no one collecting knowledge

as soon as you measure it all, even in totality, you create a state of cause and condition, because you have measured it into a fixed state. even if you talk about eternities which a singularity implies, the act of knowing it develops a way of measuring it, and you can measure eternity in a variety of ways, so it is not fixed, and any state of being that causes to become has gained impermanence

a reply to: bb23108

but regardless, what does all this bring us to?

the basis for which to gain dispassion for views coming out of attachment by way of the self

so we can take this active life force and become limitless in our perception of self, when we do this, we indeed drop the self as a fixed object which grants us the freedom to redefine ourselves

based upon the good desire skillful in its means of becoming happy, peaceful, which is a natural sate for the human being, the state which it desires and finds many ways of realizing but all based on impermanence, we come to clear insight and reapply our efforts to a better way of life

our ignorance keeps driving us towards doing hurtful things

when we learn to drop the mental and emotional intelligence always demanding attention, we listen to the intelligence of the body free from ignorance by way of clear mind and wisdom, and we see an intelligence much more connected to it's reality around it, we notice much more subtle things

and as we become more clear, we can start noticing what the environment is telling us, making us more connected, by listening totally, wholly, with every faculty of attention, we realize our interconnection with all the phenomena around us

originally posted by: preludefanguy
one thing I would like to make clear at this time

being always implies a form of intelligence, because the act of being is caused by certain conditions that arise by an intelligence fixated upon certain causes and conditions, this accumulates knowledge, and is another form of measurement by way of a consciousness existing moment to moment

because there is no being, there is no one collecting knowledge

as soon as you measure it all, even in totality, you create a state of cause and condition, because you have measured it into a fixed state. even if you talk about eternities which a singularity implies, the act of knowing it develops a way of measuring it, and you can measure eternity in a variety of ways, so it is not fixed, and any state of being that causes to become has gained impermanence

This is where we greatly differ in our understanding of Reality. Why can't there be the Singularity as Living Being itself?

You are presuming duality as the fundamental basis of Reality, and so define being and non-being as necessary counterparts of one another. But if there is only Being, and all point-of-view modifications that seem to be separate beings within the One, are collecting various limited understandings about their own point-of-view mechanisms (in our case, the whole body-mind) - why does this then imply that the One Being is not intelligent? Why can't the One be absolute Intelligence, beyond all conditional (limited) knowing and knowledge?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

Your arguments are getting stronger, bb. If you like, I could point you to some light reading for your theory that are very difficult for any materialist to argue against.

Again, I say, that would be cool.

However, what would be cooler is, if you, with all your expertise in philosophical understanding, logic, reason, rationalism, empiricism (and quick-wittedness, of course) - were to create a new thread that makes the argument proving that there is existence beyond the material world.

Now that would really test your skills, don't you think? Or is this your intention with your recently mentioned new thread that still has not yet surfaced?

I am trying to tell you that from my investigation I have found there to be no fundamental being

but yet there are countless beings

so just as you don't exist in the ultimate sense, you still have a body here that very much believes it does, so wisdom is found in the middle

when you realize that there is no fundamental being, then duality is dropped, because all things are truly empty, without necessary being, yet all things that are contain the necessary makeup for being

there is mind, energy and gravity(obstruction, mass, etc.) and all things becoming are built upon these foundations, so life and structure is inherent to becoming because there is intelligence

that which is beyond the state of existence and non-existence, encompasses both, and all exists within it, but that is misleading language because there is no 'within it'

it is beyond time and place, it itself does not hold a fixed point to reference from or to be referenced to, yet all fixed points are found within it

there is no ability for this to 'know' itself, other than by its particulars, and the particulars tell a very interesting story, but thats all it is

there still need to form necessary conditions for being to arise, and this 'singularity' is beyond necessary conditions, there simply is no being to know, no time and place for it to know itself

because you see this necessary being as a foundation, clinging and suffering is built, impermanence and duality arise

all things are truly spiritual, of the light as you put it

there's a story of a master meeting a young monk, and the master asking where the young monk was from; the young monk replied "the monastery of spiritual light"

the master asked, what is spiritual light?; where I come from we have sunlight and lamplight...

originally posted by: preludefanguy

I am trying to tell you that from my investigation I have found there to be no fundamental being

Such a One is acausal and Unconditional - prior to all beings, all conditionality, the very "substance" of all forms. The Only One Who Is cannot be objectified.

No individual being can ever find the Only One Who Is, because all individuality must be gracefully released by that very One before any such recognition is possible in any given moment. There is no individual left over to find that One in any such moment.

The conditional can never recognize the Unconditional. Conditionality must be transcended and in that, such recognition is already the case.

a reply to: bb23108

it is misunderstood, because the words are misleading

you say it is prior to all beings, a casual and unconditional, yet you say that it is a 'who' which has a fundamental being, this is a contradiction

when you let go of all individuality then there is recognition of things as they are, and what one understands is that fundamentally there is no one left, and no one to be found, it is a complete extinguishment of asker and asked

when conditionality is transcended all things that are conditional, which includes being, are extinguished, the singularity itself is not a thing, and it is not a non-thing, all that is exists 'within' it

a reply to: preludefanguy
The "Who" does not have a fundamental being - it is unlimited indivisible Conscious Being Itself.

From the standpoint of conditionality, I understand this sounds like a contradiction to you. However, if you recognize that there is only Being or Conscious Light, and that all apparently conditional forms are simply modifications of Conscious Light, there is no inherent contradiction. Paradoxical perhaps, but not contradictory.

Singularity or unlimited acausal indivisible Conscious Light is not a thing and not a no-thing. It is prior to all conditions, but not separate from whatever appears and disappears. It is the Source "substance" of all modifications but not as some separate Being or Creator-God.