How does speciation occur?

I believe in the theory of evolution. I think that random mutation is the driving factor behind the diversity of life. I also realize that evolution is reallllllly complicated when you want to understand the details and a lot of questions still need to be answered. But that is the beautiful part of science. Eventually we will inch closer to the "truth".

Having said that I'm confused about speciation. I believe the definition is that different species can't mate with each other. How is it possible that a new species is actually able to reproduce when they can't mate with anybody else? There's millions of species "A" and the first one with the different genetic traits "B" is a lone warrior. Who is she/he going to mate with???

I'm probably missing a simple fundamental detail. So please educate me.

PS: I found this link from Berkley, but I'm surprised how they omit the actual question of reproduction.
evolution.berkeley.edu...

Say one child of a certain species plus a few others migrate to a cooler climate while the other child and others migrate to a warmer climate, after so many generations of mutations in opposite directions, the ancestors of those original children are so genetically different that they can no longer mate with one another.

Now imagine that but with a branching pattern, children and grandchildren migrating to all different types of environments inbetween, this is how several different species branch off from a common ancestor, migration to different environments with some settling down and others migrating even further.

This is my personal understanding, I could be way off though. Speciation isn't and instant event, it happens over many hundreds or thousands of generations. Depending on the environment, different mutations and thus species will be the end result.

Hope that helped.

originally posted by: AllIsOne
I believe in the theory of evolution. I think that random mutation is the driving factor behind the diversity of life. I also realize that evolution is reallllllly complicated when you want to understand the details and a lot of questions still need to be answered. But that is the beautiful part of science. Eventually we will inch closer to the "truth".

Having said that I'm confused about speciation. I believe the definition is that different species can't mate with each other. How is it possible that a new species is actually able to reproduce when they can't mate with anybody else? There's millions of species "A" and the first one with the different genetic traits "B" is a lone warrior. Who is she/he going to mate with???

I'm probably missing a simple fundamental detail. So please educate me.

PS: I found this link from Berkley, but I'm surprised how they omit the actual question of reproduction.
evolution.berkeley.edu...

Its never a good idea to ask questions about evolution, you will be labeled a creationist a turn coat and ignorant.
Guarantee one thing, you wont get an answer, the best you will get is that bacteria eat stuff and the change over millions of years into humans

A female and a male both speciate at the same time coincidentally, figure that out


Good question, good luck finding an answer that makes sense and answers your question.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

That's pretty reasonable. Speciation happens when previously interbreeding groups cease to interbreed (because of something like geographic boundaries) and genetic differences accumulate that make the creation of viable offspring between individuals from different groups impossible.

EDIT to add:

There are lots of examples in nature of species with a recent (in evolutionary terms) common ancestor that can still produce hybrid offspring. Also, it's not strictly mutations that can lead to issues with breeding. Take for example horses and donkeys. Horses have 64 chromosomes and donkeys have 62 which obviously don't pair up well and despite this, horses and donkeys can be bred to produce mules (and hinnies) with 63 chromosomes. These types of hybrids are almost always sterile.

a reply to: borntowatch

Its never a good idea to ask questions about evolution, you will be labeled a creationist a turn coat and ignorant.
Guarantee one thing, you wont get an answer, the best you will get is that bacteria eat stuff and the change over millions of years into humans

A female and a male both speciate at the same time coincidentally, figure that out


Good question, good luck finding an answer that makes sense and answers your question.

The question has already been answered within the first few posts, I guess you can add that to what is probably a long list of things that you're wrong about. Perhaps if you're going to be vehemently opposed to evolution, you should do a bit of research into what you're so vehemently opposed to?

a reply to: AllIsOne

That's a tough one.

I made a thread about prehistoric evolution and I got the impression that life evolved from necessity. Half a billion years ago there were no predators but for some reason some critters evolved offensive and defensive appendages.

The Pterodactyls are another example-they were the largest creatures to ever soar in the sky but modern day birds are tiny in comparison-perhaps climate change or overspecialization could've forced the pterodactyl to make a necessary evolutionary change and perhaps the Archeopteryx-the proto bird-is evidence of that change.

To evolve is to endure and survive.

a reply to: AllIsOne

Speciation occurs when environment changes and species change or adapt to a new environment. Testing this requires a closed environment (like an island) to ensure no mixing and a long enough time span to monitor to see results of one species changing into one or many new adapted species. Take the sparrow in Hawaii for instance. It was brought there by the Spanish and in a few years adapted into different colors and different shaped beaks depending on the flowers it familiarized it self with. I don't have the link.

Thank you all for your comments. It will take me a minute to really digest the answers here. My brain is slow … ;-)

Please don't make this thread about Darwin vs. God. Neither will win on this screen.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Say one child of a certain species plus a few others migrate to a cooler climate while the other child and others migrate to a warmer climate, after so many generations of mutations in opposite directions, the ancestors of those original children are so genetically different that they can no longer mate with one another.

Now imagine that but with a branching pattern, children and grandchildren migrating to all different types of environments inbetween, this is how several different species branch off from a common ancestor, migration to different environments with some settling down and others migrating even further.

This is my personal understanding, I could be way off though. Speciation isn't and instant event, it happens over many hundreds or thousands of generations. Depending on the environment, different mutations and thus species will be the end result.

Hope that helped.

How come this didn't happen with us, homo sapiens? Has it been too short a time since we left Africa?

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

That's pretty reasonable. Speciation happens when previously interbreeding groups cease to interbreed (because of something like geographic boundaries) and genetic differences accumulate that make the creation of viable offspring between individuals from different groups impossible.

But that still doesn't explain HOW a NEW sexually reproductive species can occur. A female AND male partner with compatible new mutations that have found their way to the sperm AND ovum. Am I correct about this, or am I missing something? I'm NOT trying to evoke God, but I want to understand … ;-)

You are explaining how the same species stops interbreeding, but how does that lead to a new species and not extinction of the species?

It hurts my brain to read some of the replies in this sub forum, so I don't stop in often...


Think of it this way.
What's the difference between a Zebra, a Horse, a Goat, a bull, and a Mule?

All fairly similar animals, likely split apart by millions of years of small evolutionary changes. Other than the Mule, of course.

Evolution isn't voluntary, and I think this is where many people get lost. A goat living in the mountains doesn't will its offspring to grow a heavier coat- an offspring born with a heavier coat has an ever so slightly better chance at surviving a cold winter, and therefore has a higher chance of spreading its genetic code, potentially having offspring with slightly heavier coats. Of course, one hungry hunter could put an end to that whole bloodline without even knowing it.

Back to the Mule, though.
What's a Mule? It's an animal that can't reproduce.
How do they exist? Female horses give birth to them.
Look into it, neat stuff. Not really related, but might give you some insight.

A chicken with a slightly longer beak, or slightly darker feathers, or slightly longer legs, could have a survival advantage over its peers. It's still a chicken, though- and it can still breed with other chickens. Throw some harsh winters, large storms, floods, millions of years of natural events- and the less suited (or less lucky) animals will die- and you'll wind up with several different species of chicken, each slightly different. But they're all still the same animal- and can likely still breed with each other- but if they're different enough, their offspring might be evolutionary dead ends. Or maybe that offspring will be extremely well suited to the environment, and will now pass its superior genes on.

It's a real mess, genetically- but it's effectively random mutation combined with lots of trial and error.
A scaled down infinite monkies on typewriters type of thing.

a reply to: AllIsOne

It has happened with us, look at the various different skin tones and facial features that are prevalent from race to race, Asians have slanted eyes, blacks have larger noses/lips, etc. Enough time has gone by four these genetic changes to happen, just not enough time for a new species to emerge.

a reply to: AllIsOne

You're assuming that a monkey popped out a human all of a sudden one day, at least that's the impression I'm getting. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It has to do with migration and environmental changes. Allow enough time to go by in a certain environment and these genetic changes caused by the new environment eventually add up to a new species. Maybe the new environment calls for more or less hair, bigger or smaller noses, harder or softer bones, feathers or no feathers, etc. These changes on a small scale eventually cause a huge change in genetic make up over time.

Each new generation changes very slightly, but with enough time these small changes add up to big ones when comparing the first generation to the last.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: AllIsOne

You're assuming that a monkey popped out a human all of a sudden one day, at least that's the impression I'm getting. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That made my day … lol. Sorry, that I sound that way ;-)

originally posted by: lordcomac
It hurts my brain to read some of the replies in this sub forum, so I don't stop in often...


Think of it this way.
What's the difference between a Zebra, a Horse, a Goat, a bull, and a Mule?

All fairly similar animals, likely split apart by millions of years of small evolutionary changes. Other than the Mule, of course.

Evolution isn't voluntary, and I think this is where many people get lost. A goat living in the mountains doesn't will its offspring to grow a heavier coat- an offspring born with a heavier coat has an ever so slightly better chance at surviving a cold winter, and therefore has a higher chance of spreading its genetic code, potentially having offspring with slightly heavier coats. Of course, one hungry hunter could put an end to that whole bloodline without even knowing it.

Back to the Mule, though.
What's a Mule? It's an animal that can't reproduce.
How do they exist? Female horses give birth to them.
Look into it, neat stuff. Not really related, but might give you some insight.

A chicken with a slightly longer beak, or slightly darker feathers, or slightly longer legs, could have a survival advantage over its peers. It's still a chicken, though- and it can still breed with other chickens. Throw some harsh winters, large storms, floods, millions of years of natural events- and the less suited (or less lucky) animals will die- and you'll wind up with several different species of chicken, each slightly different. But they're all still the same animal- and can likely still breed with each other- but if they're different enough, their offspring might be evolutionary dead ends. Or maybe that offspring will be extremely well suited to the environment, and will now pass its superior genes on.

It's a real mess, genetically- but it's effectively random mutation combined with lots of trial and error.
A scaled down infinite monkies on typewriters type of thing.

Thank you for your well written post.

You're skipping the part on HOW speciation occurs. I know time is a big factor, but my question remains the same: male AND female mutation, occurring at the same time, that found its way to the sperm and ovum. Am I missing something?

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: AllIsOne

Speciation occurs when environment changes and species change or adapt to a new environment. Testing this requires a closed environment (like an island) to ensure no mixing and a long enough time span to monitor to see results of one species changing into one or many new adapted species. Take the sparrow in Hawaii for instance. It was brought there by the Spanish and in a few years adapted into different colors and different shaped beaks depending on the flowers it familiarized it self with. I don't have the link.

Different colors and beaks make it a different species? They can't interbreed anymore because of that? That's called racism … lol.

When another storm reintroduces the island flies to the mainland, they will not readily mate with the mainland flies since they’ve evolved different courtship behaviors. The few that do mate with the mainland flies, produce inviable eggs because of other genetic differences between the two populations. The lineage has split now that genes cannot flow between the populations.

Ok, I know that some assume that I have a different agenda (God did it … ), but I don't. I'm just surprised that nobody has yet explained the "mechanics" of speciation. In the above text from the U of Berkley the term "other genetic differences" is key, but they don't even bother to explain it. But this IS the most important part.

How did a mutated individual organism find a partner with the same compatible mutation to breed? This must have happened at one particular instant in time, so "millions of years" doesn't really apply here.


evolution.berkeley.edu...

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: borntowatch

Its never a good idea to ask questions about evolution, you will be labeled a creationist a turn coat and ignorant.
Guarantee one thing, you wont get an answer, the best you will get is that bacteria eat stuff and the change over millions of years into humans

A female and a male both speciate at the same time coincidentally, figure that out


Good question, good luck finding an answer that makes sense and answers your question.

The question has already been answered within the first few posts, I guess you can add that to what is probably a long list of things that you're wrong about. Perhaps if you're going to be vehemently opposed to evolution, you should do a bit of research into what you're so vehemently opposed to?

Sorry, but my question has not been answered.

a reply to: AllIsOne

If you were looking for a definitive answer then you won't be given one because no one knows for sure. I think the answer I gave is the most logical one, it describes evolution in a nutshell, something you say you believe in. Evolution is speciation, it gives the best theory possible as of yet, if you don't agree with it then you can't "believe" in evolution.

You sure this wasn't a bait thread?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: AllIsOne

It has to do with migration and environmental changes. Allow enough time to go by in a certain environment and these genetic changes caused by the new environment eventually add up to a new species.

I'm interested in the "eventually" part of your statement. I'm interested how this is possible. In other words please explain to me the mechanics of speciation. I know it did happen, but I'd like to read how. A link is also good so I can read up on it.

Thanks!