ISIS and ATS, just a observation

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Based on the last few responses I can see that very few are actually going to understand my point. This is to be expected of course ATS is after all a conspiracy forum and members like myself are in the minority. Walking in to a forum where most members believe in various conspiracies and trying to say there isn't one is never going to be popular or met with much agreement. That said however I had to get it off my chest because the level of ignorance being displayed at times is shocking

No offense, but why should people assume there's no "conspiracy" involved? Because of what an official story tells us? Every government has multiple levels of classified information. So why should anyone assume the the official story isn't hiding the truth (the classified info)?

And of course intelligence agencies, military leaders, international politicians, and international businessmen conspire on things. That's kind of the point. So why should we dismiss the obvious connections between these groups? Or do you want us to assume everything is just a series of unfortunate coincidences?

Also, the US has bases all throughout the Arabian Peninsula, including in the UAE & Qatar (and a drone base in Saudi Arabia). If our government really wanted to stop the funding of Wahabi terrorist groups like ISIS & al-Qaeda, why aren't we going after the ones funding them in those countries? Instead, we're actually protecting them w/our military presence. And Qatar & the UAE would be easy because they're incredibly small, smaller than some US states.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I have been closley following ISIS, even since before it became the new "Western backed" boggyman of ATS.

You also claim to be an "expert" on Al-Qaeda and 9/11 which is clearly not the case, and when you get called out on your armchair expertise you pretend to be smarter than everyone and say stuff like this:

Based on the last few responses I can see that very few are actually going to understand my point. This is to be expected of course ATS is after all a conspiracy forum and members like myself are in the minority.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And this:

In short you are not ever going to truly understand ISIS if you take the lazy approach to your research by dismissing it with yet another silly conspiracy in my oppinon.

How about we address the obvious, you use your false expertise to discredit anything that does not fit within your self contained bubble which you refuse to pop.

Your views on ISIS are close minded in my opinion and this OP certainly proves so. Let me ask you this, why won't ISIS attack Israel and those "Evil Jews" that all the Muslims hate?

As the other poster mentioned, ISIS is mostly controlled by the same people who did 9/11, USA/Israe/Saudi...but I'm just a silly conspiracy theorist and how dare I question your "expertise".

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Maybe I can give some Knowledge Here ,From a Different prospective ,For I am Muslim and ISIS is a big topic in our community.

ISIS First and foremost is an evil entity to the world and Islam . Their Ideology Is what we call "Khawarij"

From their essentially political position, the Kharijites developed extreme doctrines that further set them apart from both mainstream Sunni and Shiʿa Muslims. The Kharijites were particularly noted for adopting a radical approach to Takfir.

So in a nut shell they are driven by mostly Politics and not so much "religion" although they play on it as if they are doing it in the name of "Islam" and GOD .

This "Ideology" has been around since the Uthmān ibn ʿAffān caliph ( the 3rd caliph) and was also predicted by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , That these types of groups will rise .

Also these "kharijites" are in Fact responsible for the Shi'a Sunni divide. "Kharijites" are the ones who actually killed Ali ibn talib,Thus ultimately causing divide.

I have learned Through my studies that these groups seem to arise during times of war and strife .

Their very survival depends on Bid'Ah ( innovation of religion and scripture ) to persuade the minds of lessor educated Muslims .

Example : Their is a Hadith (a collection of traditions containing sayings of the prophet Muhammad that, with accounts of his daily practice (the Sunna), constitute the major source of guidance for Muslims apart from the Koran.) That talks about a man who had an arrow shot through his neck during a battle . So he decided to face the enemy head on ultimately sacrificing hims self for the "cause".

In the minds of the "khuaraij" this means its ok to go and blow your self up! in a time of war ! ,When if fact the quran says the opposite, it says "do not kill your self " . They take this Hadith and innovate it to convince people tat its ok to go kill them selfs etc . and they do this with the Quran as well .

Basically its their own Interpretation of Scriptures and hadith . Allot of them also follow weak hadith (hadith that does not have a chain of narration that is traced back to the Shahaba or prophet Muhammad ) .

The problem is that they don't have Scholars within their ranks. Islamic "fiq" ( law) and Islamic hadith take years upon years of study to fully understand . But here we have within the ranks of ISIS these Supposed scholars making Rulings of pure deception and ignorance.

The very act of them establishing a Caliphate was wrong on all accounts and not in order of Islamic Fiq.

But their is also other entities at play within ISIS and that is outside support and Influence and it is widely known within the Muslim umma that ISIS is currently being used as a tool for other powers .

But they are real , they are Extreme , they are not of Islam and the quran and sunna .

Hope this helped you understand them a little more .

Kap

originally posted by: Kapusta
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Maybe I can give some Knowledge Here ,From a Different prospective ,For I am Muslim and ISIS is a big topic in our community.

ISIS First and foremost is an evil entity to the world and Islam . Their Ideology Is what we call "Khawarij"

From their essentially political position, the Kharijites developed extreme doctrines that further set them apart from both mainstream Sunni and Shiʿa Muslims. The Kharijites were particularly noted for adopting a radical approach to Takfir.

So in a nut shell they are driven by mostly Politics and not so much "religion" although they play on it as if they are doing it in the name of "Islam" and GOD .

This "Ideology" has been around since the Uthmān ibn ʿAffān caliph ( the 3rd caliph) and was also predicted by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , That these types of groups will rise .

Also these "kharijites" are in Fact responsible for the Shi'a Sunni divide. "Kharijites" are the ones who actually killed Ali ibn talib,Thus ultimately causing divide.

I have learned Through my studies that these groups seem to arise during times of war and strife .

Their very survival depends on Bid'Ah ( innovation of religion and scripture ) to persuade the minds of lessor educated Muslims .

Example : Their is a Hadith (a collection of traditions containing sayings of the prophet Muhammad that, with accounts of his daily practice (the Sunna), constitute the major source of guidance for Muslims apart from the Koran.) That talks about a man who had an arrow shot through his neck during a battle . So he decided to face the enemy head on ultimately sacrificing hims self for the "cause".

In the minds of the "khuaraij" this means its ok to go and blow your self up! in a time of war ! ,When if fact the quran says the opposite, it says "do not kill your self " . They take this Hadith and innovate it to convince people tat its ok to go kill them selfs etc . and they do this with the Quran as well .

Basically its their own Interpretation of Scriptures and hadith . Allot of them also follow weak hadith (hadith that does not have a chain of narration that is traced back to the Shahaba or prophet Muhammad ) .

The problem is that they don't have Scholars within their ranks. Islamic "fiq" ( law) and Islamic hadith take years upon years of study to fully understand . But here we have within the ranks of ISIS these Supposed scholars making Rulings of pure deception and ignorance.

The very act of them establishing a Caliphate was wrong on all accounts and not in order of Islamic Fiq.

But their is also other entities at play within ISIS and that is outside support and Influence and it is widely known within the Muslim umma that ISIS is currently being used as a tool for other powers .

But they are real , they are Extreme , they are not of Islam and the quran and sunna .

Hope this helped you understand them a little more .

Kap

Thanks for this post! I'm a fellow Muslim & I've been trying to tell people since I got on this site that these Wahabi groups aren't Sunni at all. They have a blood feud with Shia Islam but target Sunnis as well. I'm actually thinking of making a thread just to give casual observers a better view of the differences.

a reply to: TinfoilTP

Far fetched? Too screwy to be "true" ? I have no theory, nor am I trying to $ell You anything. It is as much "true" as anybody else's "theory"..

Why would You be concerned about My mental/physical health, it has zero bearing on how You go about the day.

You've stooped to making it personal, ergo "You win". You've must've had a "bad day" to be concerned about what someone You don't know (that You know of) has to type. Do You often give up Your power? I mean if You can 'lose it' over something I say/do what does that say about You? (rhetorical)

Have a better day.

a reply to: Kapusta

If I could give you another star I would. Thanks for that insight. I'd question you further about your communities beliefs of "outside players" but I doubt the truth of what's really happening in regards to ISIS is within the scope of this OP. Regardless of whatever claims made and best not to get off topic.

a reply to: real_one

I don't think I have ever described myself as a "expert", I will not deny it is a subject I am knowledgeable on and that I have devoted quite a bit of time into researching but I would not be so arrogant to describe myself as a "expert". So with that said most of your personal attack against me is kind of muted.

I learned along time ago it is a foolish man who believes himself to be the smartest guy in the room.

I also learned along time ago that on ATS, the spectacular and grandiose theorises comes before good quality thorough research. Much more sexy to call describe ISIS as being all part of the big bad Jewish evil empire for many conspiracy theorists.

originally posted by: JimNasium
a reply to: TinfoilTP

Far fetched? Too screwy to be "true" ? I have no theory, nor am I trying to $ell You anything. It is as much "true" as anybody else's "theory"..

Why would You be concerned about My mental/physical health, it has zero bearing on how You go about the day.

You've stooped to making it personal, ergo "You win". You've must've had a "bad day" to be concerned about what someone You don't know (that You know of) has to type. Do You often give up Your power? I mean if You can 'lose it' over something I say/do what does that say about You? (rhetorical)

Have a better day.

No clue what you are talking about there comrade, you typed the drivel I responded in kind. Next time defend your position with a rational series of events. Obama abandoning Iraq just so he can invade it again to possess weird stuff isn't strong reasoning.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I find it very telling that you don't mention in your OP anything about Syrian Rebels and mercenaries and western support

And then ISIS

And you claim you've been following them since the get go

You know following ISIS means nothing if your source of information is western msm

The truth OtherCoin is that you need to start watching half RT half western MSM if you really care about reality of the world

It is also possible you know all this even better than me but talk differently online

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Based on the last few responses I can see that very few are actually going to understand my point. This is to be expected of course ATS is after all a conspiracy forum and members like myself are in the minority. Walking in to a forum where most members believe in various conspiracies and trying to say there isn't one is never going to be popular or met with much agreement. That said however I had to get it off my chest because the level of ignorance being displayed at times is shocking

Well I agree with you. Some people are obsessed with "the evil US" to the extent that they are blinded to the realities of life, namely, in this case, people are easily led into atrocious behaviour led by a very small number of , usually, charismatic nutters ! History is full of these events.

What amazes me is the way the bleedin obvious is conveniently ignored :

Boko Haram - exactly the same as ISIS and committing atrocities long before ISIS became mainstream. And there is no way in hell the US had anything to do with them.

Al Shabaab - exactly the same as ISIS and committing atrocities long before ISIS became mainstream. And there is no way in hell the US had anything to do with them.

I mean DUH !!!

we were openly supplying them when they were "syrian rebels" so the evil governments did create them, and still train them

It's not complex...follow the money.a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin


Be careful with what you read on the internet. The "ISIS is backed by the west" theory is a story that is spread by the major current enemy of the Sunny extremists - namely the Shiite militias backed by Iran.

However, there is a grain of truth in it. The CIA did fund training operations in Afghanistan during the war with the Soviet Union. This is a long time ago, so to say they are still doing this after all that has happened is foolish.

The other piece of truth to be found here is that Saudi Arabia (which is definitely backed by the west) is supporting Sunni militias around the middle east. It is quite possible that some of these funds, weapons, etc. find their way into the ranks of Al Qaeda and ISIS, as the lines between a lot of the Sunni groups are very blurry and this miasma of groupings makes it very difficult to understand all the relationships that are in play.

As it seems right now, you have a major war brewing in the region: The Sunnis backed by Saudi Arabia - vs - the Shiites backed by Iran. Don't believe the propaganda that is currently pervasive on the internet; well funded InfoOps are already being carried out by both sides.

Try to focus on facts, not on conjecture and buzzwords.

Oh... and don't forget: Saudi Arabia is backed directly by the USA, while Iran is backed directly by Russia. Maybe this is just the same old game that has been played since the end of WWII?

a reply to: fedeykin

The "ISIS is backed by the west" theory is a story that is spread by the major current enemy of the Sunny extremists

Sunny extremists, are they like hardcore extremist holiday reps that force vodka shots down your throat and will not rest until every inch of your flesh had been burned to a crisp so by the time you get on the plane home you already have skin cancer and advanced liver cirrhosis along with a funny wart on your gentiles that you are sure was not there when you left for your holiday but cannot remember how it got there?

Sorry could not resist, I am assuming you mean Sunni extremists, but that typo was just to easy to have a laugh with.

To get back on to a more serious note however,

I think what you are saying about the proxy war between Iran and Saudi is very true but more so with what is happening in Yemen, where ISIS is also active. I think that just like Al-Qa'ida there may very well be some Saudi funding involved in all of this.

originally posted by: fedeykin
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin


Be careful with what you read on the internet. The "ISIS is backed by the west" theory is a story that is spread by the major current enemy of the Sunny extremists - namely the Shiite militias backed by Iran.

However, there is a grain of truth in it. The CIA did fund training operations in Afghanistan during the war with the Soviet Union. This is a long time ago, so to say they are still doing this after all that has happened is foolish.

The other piece of truth to be found here is that Saudi Arabia (which is definitely backed by the west) is supporting Sunni militias around the middle east. It is quite possible that some of these funds, weapons, etc. find their way into the ranks of Al Qaeda and ISIS, as the lines between a lot of the Sunni groups are very blurry and this miasma of groupings makes it very difficult to understand all the relationships that are in play.

As it seems right now, you have a major war brewing in the region: The Sunnis backed by Saudi Arabia - vs - the Shiites backed by Iran. Don't believe the propaganda that is currently pervasive on the internet; well funded InfoOps are already being carried out by both sides.

Try to focus on facts, not on conjecture and buzzwords.

Oh... and don't forget: Saudi Arabia is backed directly by the USA, while Iran is backed directly by Russia. Maybe this is just the same old game that has been played since the end of WWII?

I like the reasoning you use about all these middle eastern feuds essentially being shades of the Cold War. It gives realistic insight to how the US is indirectly contributing to these extremist groups.

I'm not about all these theories that the US would intentionally piss in its own bed by direct funding terrorist groups bent on destroying us. The current situation is more along the lines of the aftermath of the Iraq-Iran War. The US funded Iraq to defeat Iran. They later came back later to use that same funding to invade Kuwait. Who knows? The US also funded Afghani rebels against Soviet invaders. How many of those same rebels eventually joined The Taliban/Al Qaeda?

a reply to: chibistevie
My reply is mixed in with the quoted post. I meant to post it like everyone else does with the quote and my response separate. I'll get the hang of this, don't worry lol