Gaza, an open air prison.

I was going to make comment on my thoughts at visiting Palestine a few times and and "the wall" , and gong with a Jordanian friend to the Palestinian refugee camp in Jordan, but this thread solidifies how useless I felt when being there in terms of just hate heaped upon hate. A pile of steaming putrescent misery.

People stink. Over there, and here. My sense of hopelessness for ALL of them on both sides never fades when I'm on ATS.

Half of you don't even have a single teeny weeny clue about the reality of what goes on there, the feeling of justified hatred on both sides for wrongs committed, just what you read in your propaganda sites to support your positions, and maintain the hate you feel so justified in espousing.

The usual hypocrisy. Try inserting "my house" for Israel and see what you would do differently. Actually, I hope that those blind anti - Israel types get that very chance.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

You're right. It stink's.

If you ask people about Palestine and Israel, no one really knows whats happening there. They even think they are two different countries fighting against each other...

There's no sense of the "thing" called : Illegal Occupation. With the backup of US and other western powers, I must say.

In the end nobody really knows, because of the western controlled media. And also very important, because Israel control's everything over there, nobody get's in or out without their permission. A total violation of Declaration of Human Rights. "A thing" also from the past, 1947, actually.

Even the UN can't go their to investigate War crimes.

It's a BS "world".
Most people are occupied by their egos or their work. Also, most don't want to "waist" time reading about the truth, in different sources.

I could stay asleep and in silence, but since I started to read and found the truth, I just can't be silent anymore. I take time to explain and expose whatever I can.

Don't quit, please. You're testimony is very important, for everyone here and every where else.

a reply to: voyger2

I'm afraid you won't like my testimony, you see I feel compassion for the victims on both sides, I believe both sides have a list as long as each others arms of grievances. Combined with my compassion I feel disgust for the perpetration of evil from the power players on both sides. Why would you think a Palestinian or Israeli politician is any more vile or less power greedy than a Politician in the US or UK etc? It serves them all to keep conflict going. Just as it serves the Industrial Military complex to keep troops in conflicts around the world.

I think the human condition that makes people cling to tribalism is to blame for what is going on there also and other just as tragic war zones. No one owns the land. We belong to it. You aren't born with a religion in your DNA, you learn it. Just as you learn who from the 'other tribe' you are meant to hate, and you learn how to perpetrate ad infinitum that hatred. And you learn how to grab for power, that's all these conflicts are...always, everytime. Power grabs.

For every picture you post of a Israeli doing something nasty, I can post a community or individual Israelis that works towards ending the cycle of hatred. For every picture of a Palestinian child suicide bomber, I can post you a picture of a Israeli ambulance driver working with a Palestinian EMT saving lives together, and so on. All Israelis and Palestinians aren't a-holes, and like a grieving mother over there said to people like you buying into the propoganda fed to them by politicians and media :

If you can't be part of the solution, I would really ask you to leave us alone. I really mean that."

Show you are open to not embracing hatred, and I will then share my testimony, 'till then I find it pointless, it would fall on deaf ears. What you read doesn't matter, like I said before you read that which propagates a bias and fuels a hatred. It shows a great heart who can embrace a enemy or find the good instead of the bad. be part of solutions, not part of a continuing cycle of hatred fed to you by men who want power.

Read less hatred, read more on how people are trying to change how they are forced to live. Support these wonderful people, and pay less lip to the war mongers of the world. They are everywhere, not just Israel.

“If Palestinian freedom fighters and former Israeli soldiers can form a group with a common cause, then anyone can.”

Wael Salame (East Jerusalem)

For anyone actually interested in providing solutions and trying to end the hatred, Palestinians and Israelis working together organizations:

cfpeace.org...

www.seedsofpeace.org...

www.insightonconflict.org...

Israeli Mother forbids revenge attacks after Palestinian sniper kills her son
www.theguardian.com...

Damelin sighs: "This whole idea of being pro-Israel or pro-Palestine – what comes out of that is that you are not helping either nation and you are importing our conflict into your country. That is very clear in Britain. If you are pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, and your leaders are encouraging this – some of your politicians, it is very clear whose side they are on – the Jews and Muslims here are beginning to hate each other. It's very easy for both the Muslim and Jewish communities in the diaspora not to compromise; they're not exactly put to the test every day. If you can't be part of the solution, I would really ask you to leave us alone. I really mean that."

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: voyger2
Why would you think a Palestinian or Israeli politician is any more vile or less power greedy than a Politician in the US or UK etc? It serves them all to keep conflict going. Just as it serves the Industrial Military complex to keep troops in conflicts around the world.

I never said nothing like that, so please stop putting words in my mouth.

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
All Israelis and Palestinians aren't a-holes, and like a grieving mother over there said to people like you buying into the propoganda fed to them by politicians and media

What propaganda!? This all about Illegal occupation! Not propaganda. The occupation must end! Such as imprisonment, food, water and medication control, harassment and collective punishment. This is no pro anything. It's pro Human rights.

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
What you read doesn't matter, like I said before you read that which propagates a bias and fuels a hatred. It shows a great heart who can embrace a enemy or find the good instead of the bad. be part of solutions, not part of a continuing cycle of hatred fed to you by men who want power.

Before you can have peace, you need justice. They must end the occupation and return the land to their owner's. Israel and Palestine should exist together. There is a UN proposal for that since 1947. Israel has no right to impose force to anyone, the same applies to Palestinians. But, first, the Occupation must Stop!

We Refuse to be Enemies

a reply to: voyger2

You choose to offer no solutions, so remain part of the problem

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Sorry, I gave you above one solution. End the siege. End the illegal occupation.

Whats yours?

Edit: in just two minutes, you didn't had time to read the thread I gave you... that say's a lot about your "alleged good" intentions!

reply to: voyger2


Nah, instead, I'll slink to the recessed shadows of humanity from your beaming shinning example of compassion and political understandings in area that you have displayed in thread (the Jews as maggots image a particular favorite of mine that shows your magnanimous ability to be a instigator of a peace solution).

The locals are lucky to have you on their side from Portugal

Thanks I have learned much from you. I'll leave reprimanded and implement your brilliant plan immediately.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Don't pretend to be polite.

The most important thing for me is that people can understand whats really going on their, by themselves.

The spell of shadows by elaborated rhetoric's will cease in time.

Then you will learn, truly.

a reply to: voyger2

Who said I was pretending, I thought I did a bang up job of being sarcastic.

If you want to know whats going go there, go there.
Spend time with people making change.
Otherwise, as the grieving mother said " If you can't be part of the solution, I would really ask you to leave us alone. I really mean that."

Distorting the facts of Occupation: Regavim’s attacks on the EU

An Israeli settler NGO has accused the EU of illegal building in the West Bank. But the facts — and its understanding of international law — just don’t add up

Reports started circulating before Israel’s elections that Prime Minister Netanyahu had ordered the destruction of mobile structures distributed by the EU in Area C of the West Bank. This harks back to a report in November 2014 by the Israeli NGO Regavim, which draws a shocking parallel between the EU’s humanitarian assistance to Palestinians in Area C and Israel’s building of settlements there. Assuming that Israel’s settlements are legal under international law, Regavim accuses the EU of assisting the Palestinians in an illegal plan to take control of large parts of the West Bank.

This simply puts matters on their head. There is no doubt that Israel’s settlement policy violates international law whereas assistance to Palestinians building in their own country is in full conformity with the EU’s responsibilities under humanitarian law.

Regavim claims that Israel does not “occupy” the West Bank, since that area was not under the sovereignty of any state when it was taken over by Israel. That argument is specious: it was firmly rejected by the International Court of Justice in 2004 in the case concerning the construction of the Wall, and it is not accepted by any other member of the international community. Contrary to Regavim’s argument, Israel does not enjoy sovereign rights over any part of the West Bank, whether in East Jerusalem or in Area C ; Israel must respect the Fourth Geneva Convention, to which it is a party, and which prohibits an occupying power from transferring its population into occupied territory.

In 1947, the UN General Assembly recommended splitting mandatory Palestine into two independent states – an Arab State (Palestine) and a Jewish State (Israel). Whereas Israel unilaterally proclaimed independence at the time, Palestine could not do so, being occupied by Jordan and, since 1967, by Israel. This does not mean that the West Bank and East Jerusalem are subject to Israeli sovereignty. Palestinians in the West Bank live in their own country.

The Regavim report acknowledges that the EU saves Israel a great deal of resources through its humanitarian activities, which, “in effect, carry out Israel’s obligations towards the Palestinians.” However, it complains that, when financing Palestinian construction in Area C of the West Bank, the EU violates the Oslo II agreement, which, “clearly specified that Area C would be under the full responsibility of the State of Israel.” The EU thereby “cynically exploits … Israel’s unwillingness to clash diplomatically with the European States” by “trampling on the law.”

The origin of this ire is to be found in the particular situation at which the Regavim report is directed. It is well known that Israel intends to isolate East Jerusalem from the remainder of the West Bank by building settlements in an area north-east of Jerusalem referred to as E-1. Doing so would make a contiguous and viable Palestinian State impossible.

Regavim claims that the EU-financed structures were built without the required permits. The zoning rules imposed by the Israeli authorities, however, allow construction by Palestinians in less than 1 percent of Area C; the remainder is reserved for Israeli settlements, closed military zones and nature reserves. Therefore, it is practically impossible for Palestinians to obtain building permits, as the World Bank attests in its 2013 report on the Palestinian economy. This constitutes a violation of Israel’s obligation, as an occupying power, to exercise its powers for the benefit of the Palestinian population. Moreover introducing these restrictions violates Israel’s obligation to preserve, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force before the occupation.

Regavim also claims that the Oslo II Agreement gave Israel “full control” over Area C and accuses the EU and the Palestinian Authority of preventing Israel from “exercising its sovereignty” in the area. This is a shocking distortion of the facts: Oslo provided that powers and responsibilities relating to planning and zoning would, subject to certain issues, be resolved in permanent status negotiations, and come under Palestinian jurisdiction within 18 months from the inauguration of the Palestinian Council (7 March 1996). Israel’s role was clearly designed to be temporary.

The Oslo Agreement was never fully implemented. The result, however, was not to place Palestine in a situation of everlasting dependency on Israel’s goodwill in planning matters. The Fourth Geneva Convention provides that the occupied population may not be deprived of the benefits provided for it under its provisions, even as the result of an agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territory (Palestine) and the occupying power (Israel). Therefore, Israel may not take advantage of the breakdown of the Oslo negotiations to deprive Palestinians of rights they had under pre-existing legislation.

The Regavim report completely distorts two basic concepts by accusing the EU of acting illegally through its provision of humanitarian assistance to residents of Area C. It is Israel that acts in breach of international law, both by building settlements for its own citizens, and by acting as if it were entitled to exercise sovereignty in the West Bank. The EU is fully justified in helping Palestinians avoid the consequences of these violations.

By Michel Waelbroeck and Willem Aldershoff
Michel Waelbroeck is an Emeritus Professor of European Law at the Université libre de Bruxelles, and an Emeritus Member of the Institute of International Law. Willem Aldershoff, former Head of Unit in the European Commission, is currently Adviser EU-policy Israel/Palestine, Brussels.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

One day I will go there. One day when those people are free. At this time I can't, there's a illegal siege going on. Not even the U.N. can go in to investigate.

For the time being, I will keep my attention on International Agencies Reports, News Reports and everything I can find that helps clean the fog of darkness.

And, I'm part of the solution. If I wasn't, you surely wouldn't be here judging my "beaming shinning example of compassion " (quoting you there).

And that keep's me going thanks

a reply to: voyger2

OK I look forward to more from you on the issue, keep them Jewish maggot pictures coming.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

I wonder.. Are you being sarcastic again, or just lying? Maybe both?

originally posted by: voyger2
I will keep my attention on International Agencies Reports, News Reports and everything I can find that helps clean the fog of darkness.

Did you see this "International Agencies Report"?

www.amnesty.org...

Palestinian armed groups displayed a flagrant disregard for the lives of civilians by repeatedly launching indiscriminate rockets and mortars towards civilian areas in Israel during the conflict in July and August 2014, said Amnesty International in a new report published today......
Unlawful and deadly: Rocket and mortar attacks by Palestinian armed groups during the 2014 Gaza/Israel conflict provides evidence that several attacks launched from inside the Gaza Strip amount to war crimes. Six civilians in Israel, including a four-year-old boy, were killed in such attacks during the 50-day conflict. In the deadliest incident believed to have been caused by a Palestinian attack, 11 children were among 13 Palestinian civilians killed when a projectile fired from within the Gaza Strip landed in the al-Shati refugee camp.

So not only are the Hamas terrorists happy to attack Israel, they do not care that they also attack and kill Palestinians....

There are no bomb shelters or warning systems in place to protect civilians in Gaza.

As we have seen Hamas terrorists prefer to hide in hospitals, and use concrete to build tunnels to attack Israel from - they do nothing to protect Gaza civilians - in fact they do not mind when they are killed, even by their own rockets as they are just used for propaganda!

The report also details other violations of international humanitarian law by Palestinian armed groups during the conflict, such as storing rockets and other munitions in civilian buildings, including UN schools, and cases where Palestinian armed groups launched attacks or stored munitions very near locations where hundreds of displaced civilians were taking shelter.

As we know Hamas terrorists store rockets in schools and launched attacks using human shields.... but of course you will ignore this!

a reply to: hellobruce

Of course I have seen the report! They should be brought to Justice so as the Israel Government. But yet, the only one who signed Rome Statute of the ICC, were the Palestinians:

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas signed an instrument of accession on 31 December 2014, transmitting it to the UN Secretary-General on 2 January 2015. On 1 January, Palestine also submitted a declaration to the ICC accepting retroactive jurisdiction from 13 June 2014 pursuant to Article 12(3) of the Rome Statute.

The Real criminals (Israel government), of course, didn't signed and even block UN investigations:

Israel has steadfastly denied access to Gaza to the UN Commission of Inquiry that was appointed by the UN Human Rights Council “to investigate all violations of international humanitarian law and international human rights law in the [OPT]… [..]

Further, it continues to deny access to Gaza to Amnesty International and other international human rights organizations that are researching allegations of serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law during the conflict.

So, not even they (Israel) run and hide from International sructuny:

Israel participated in the negotiations leading to the ICC’s establishment but in 2002 stated that it would not ratify the Rome Statute.

They even retaliate against Palestine for asking to join International Criminal Court:

Amnesty International is concerned that Israel has already taken a punitive step against Palestine for granting the ICC jurisdiction over crimes under international law in the OPT and that the USA and EU member states may do likewise.

In addition to Israel and the USA, EU member states and Canada – ostensibly staunch supporters of the ICC – have consistently pressured the Palestinian authorities not to take steps to grant the ICC jurisdiction in recent years; such pressure has included threats to withdraw financial assistance on which the Palestinian authorities depend.

Israel impunity is still at large:

During the 50-day conflict between Israel and Gaza in July and August 2014 [..] Israeli forces carried out attacks on inhabited homes, in some cases killing entire families, and on medical facilities and schools, as well as deliberately destroying homes and civilian infrastructure.

source for download
source of above claims - Ammnesty

In the next post I will give you some of those War crimes pretreated by Israel and referred above. They are only for this late assault on Gaza, because history have much more of these kind of actions against Palestine.

originally posted by: voyger2
a reply to: hellobruce

Of course I have seen the report!

]

But you want to ignore it as it shows that the Hamas terrorists use hospitals and schools to store weapons and attack Israel from!

But yet, the only one who signed Rome Statute of the ICC, were the Palestinians

Countries do not have to sign it, the USA has not ratified it, nor has Russia, China has not signed it nor has the Vatican City....

The Real criminals

That would be the Hamas terrorists, using schools and hospital;ls to store ammo and attack Israel from...

During the 50-day conflict between Israel and Gaza in July and August 2014 [..] Israeli forces carried out attacks on inhabited homes, in some cases killing entire families, and on medical facilities and schools,

And as we have seen those "medical facilities and schools" were used by Hamas to store rockets and attack Israel from - but you ignore that! Funny that....

In the next post I will give you some of those War crimes pretreated by Israel

Funny how you ignore the report on Hamas's war crimes but just want to attack the Jews....

Just think, if Hamas did not launch rockets at and attack Israel they would not be attacked! But you also ignore that fact!

a reply to: hellobruce
Just some examples, they are too many for only one assault by Israel (war):

The situation in the West Bank
Excessive use of force by ISF

OHCHR’s initial findings indicate that many of those allegedly killed by the ISF did not appear to pose a lethal threat. [..] this would raise concerns about the effective enforcement of the ISF rules of engagement and their adherence to international legal principles of necessity and proportionality and other relevant human rights standards.

Mass detentions

Between 12 June and mid-August 2014, between 1,100 and 1,500 Palestinians were detained in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. These included about 300 children, [..]

Punitive demolitions

Punitive home demolitions impact the entire family constitute a form of collective penalty in breach of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and breaches Israel’s obligations to ensure Palestinians’ rights to adequate housing and to freedom from arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy, family or home, and other relevant norms.

Restrictions to freedom of movement

Restrictions on Palestinians travelling across the Allenby Bridge to Jordan also increased. [..] Palestinians who were denied access allegedly did not have the possibility to challenge the decision or to obtain the reasons for denial of access in writing. These restrictions on freedom of movement raise concerns as to Israel’s compliance with its obligations under Article 12 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

Settler violence

Several attacks by Israeli settlers against Palestinians were documented, including physical assaults, stone-throwing at Palestinian cars, and “price tag” incidents.

[b]The situation in the Gaza Strip

According to the United Nations Department of Safety and Security, the IDF carried out 4,028 air raids, firing 5,830 missiles, as well as 16,507 artillery and tank projectiles and 3,494 naval shells. [..]

The ground operation, accompanied by air and naval strikes, ran from the night of 17 July until 5 August. During this phase, there was a significant increase in Palestinian civilian casualties and displacement.

As illustrated below, information received raises serious concerns with regard to the alleged failure of the IDF to respect the legal principles of distinction, proportionality and precaution in attack. [..], especially during the ground operation;

Air and naval strikes

In other attacks, it was unclear what the target was. At around 1830 hours on 20 July, three missiles hit two apartments in a nine-storey building in the Remal area of Gaza City. Eleven persons, including seven children and three women, were killed. Residents said no prior warning of the planned attack was given. [..] OHCHR has no information on the possible military objective for which the two apartments may have been targeted.

In a number of cases, IDF launched its attacks on houses and residential buildings either around the time of breaking the Ramadan fast at sunset, or at the beginning of the fast at dawn [..] an Israeli air strike hit a three-storey residential building of six apartments [..] killing 25 members of the same family.

[..] Witnesses claimed that the Israeli Naval Forces aimed at the group of children running away from the sea, and reported that a third missile landed in a nearby area, hitting one person who had been trying to rescue the children.

Ground operation

OHCHR documented a number of cases relating to the ground operation in which civilians were killed in possibly indiscriminate and/or disproportionate Israeli attacks

Beit Hanoun

It is unclear in this case whether the IDF took all feasible precautions to ensure that the area was free of civilians before its attack [..] The number of civilian casualties and the scale of damage in the area – almost the whole surrounding area was flattened – raises concerns as to whether the attack was disproportionate and/or indiscriminate.

Shuja’iya

OHCHR also received reports of attacks on civilians during humanitarian pauses [..] a 22-year-old Palestinian, searching for his relatives with other rescuers during a humanitarian pause on the afternoon of 20 July, was allegedly shot several times by the IDF and killed.

Khuzza’a

Witnesses told OHCHR that IDF soldiers fired indiscriminately at civilians trying to escape the area including some with white flags. [..] IDF soldiers reportedly asked for a Hebrew speaker in the group to stand up. As a 57-year-old man attempted to do so, he was reportedly shot and killed.

Rafah

Based on the information available to OHCHR, it is hard to understand how the very high number of civilian casualties and the scale of damage caused by the shelling and bombardment carried out in Rafah, reportedly as a response to the alleged capture of the soldier, could be consistent with the principles of proportionality and distinction enshrined in international humanitarian law.

Attacks on schools serving as United Nations-designated shelters for internally-displaced persons

OHCHR documented a number of cases where those seeking shelter found they had nowhere safe to go. [..] UNRWA notified the Israeli authorities 33 times of the coordinates of the shelter, and the fact that it was housing displaced persons, the last time one hour before the incident. Eyewitnesses said that there were no activities of armed groups in the area at the time.

Attacks on hospitals and medical personnel

According to the World Health Organization, 17 hospitals and 56 primary health clinics were destroyed or sustained damages during hostilities[..] There are also numerous reports of attacks on or near ambulances and ambulance staff, causing death, injury and damage. In several cases, this was even after ambulances coordinated their movement directly with the Israeli Civil Liaison Office or through the ICRC. Three PRCS staff, including the driver, had to leave the vehicle to reach the child, which they did only after coordination with the IDF via the ICRC. The IDF then allegedly shot the driver. The remaining PRCS staff were allegedly shot at several times

Attacks on other civilian objects and infrastructure

Civilian objects protected under international humanitarian law - such as industrial infrastructure, farms, water and sanitation installations, the Gaza Power Plant, a water desalination station, mosques, and universities - sustained severe damage or were destroyed.[..] In any event, the widespread impact of destruction of such facilities would make it very unlikely that such attacks could be proportionate

Transfer of detainees to Israel and forced work for military purposes
[..]
I expect you didn't miss this report also. I only transcribed some of the IDF War crimes ..

a reply to: hellobruce

Don't worry Sir. I don't ignore Hamas crimes. Neither I ignore IDF crimes. They all should be brought to justice and punished.

But the most important thing that haves to happen, is to end the occupation and the siege. Israel has to comply (as nation abide to the United Nations charter) with International law. STOP THE OCCUPATION. RETURN THE LAND TO PALESTINIANS.

Don't mix/confuse armed groups actions to free them selves from oppression and imprisonment, in the right of self defense. With the base of the problem: OCCUPATION !!! Theft of land, Genocide attempts, Imprisonment, starvation, water and medicine control,harassment, undiscriminated shelling and killing of civilians. And don't you ignore that!!!!

originally posted by: voyger2
The situation in the West Bank

Off topic, this thread is about Gaza....

in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

Off topic, this thread is about Gaza....

Restrictions on Palestinians travelling across the Allenby Bridge to Jordan

Off topic, this thread is about Gaza....

The situation in the Gaza Strip

According to the United Nations Department of Safety and Security, the IDF carried out 4,028 air raids, firing 5,830 missiles, as well as 16,507 artillery and tank projectiles and 3,494 naval shells. [..]

The ground operation, accompanied by air and naval strikes, ran from the night of 17 July until 5 August. During this phase, there was a significant increase in Palestinian civilian casualties and displacement.

You ignore that was started by the Hamas terrorists, Israel was just defending itself, which it would not have to do if the Hamas terrorists did not attack Israel... but as we have seen according to you Israel is not allowed to defend itself against terrorist attacks...

In other attacks, it was unclear what the target was. At around 1830 hours on 20 July, three missiles hit two apartments in a nine-storey building in the Remal area of Gaza City. Eleven persons, including seven children and three women, were killed.

Buildings used to store Hamas rockets, as Hamas use human shields .

an Israeli air strike hit a three-storey residential building of six apartments [..] killing 25 members of the same family.

Again used by Hamas terrorists to store rockets and ammo.

Beit Hanoun
It is unclear in this case whether the IDF took all feasible precautions to ensure that the area was free of civilians before its attack

You ignore this....

The Israeli Defense forces claimed that "the IDF encountered heavy fire in vicinity of the school, including anti-tank missile.

So again Hamas terrorists using schools to attack Israel from...

Attacks on schools serving as United Nations-designated shelters for internally-displaced persons

As Amnesty international said, Hamas terrorists use schools to store rockets and attack Israel from...

Attacks on hospitals and medical personnel

As amnesty international said, Hamas terrorists use hospitals as bases and to store rockets....

Attacks on other civilian objects and infrastructure

Used by Hamas to launch their rockets from.... but of course you ignore all the Hamas war crimes attacking Israel, you are just upset at the Jews defending themselves!