Is Ukraine the New Afghanistan of The Cold War? Oligarchs Using Private Militia.

I'm having a difficult time reading between all these lines of late. Is that the goal?

When I look back on places such as Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan (Just to name the most recent) I see nothing but a pattern of lies, propaganda and outright BS to justify the War machine. Why should I see anything different here?

And to be honest I have to ask why is it that you, S.O are posting so much on the topic? I have never seen you post so much on one issue since I've been here and to be clear, I'm wondering why.

I won't claim to understand everything going on in the Ukraine because quite frankly I don't believe any of us actually knows the truth. We are only fed what is necessary to sway us one way or another. So for anyone on these boards to come out and state with 100% certainty their knowledge of the situation is accurate is actually just pure pure BS and nothing but speculation. And that is biased at best because depending on what side people want to believe, there is enough fodder online to feed any side.

Even the people in Russia, and The Ukraine have professed to not knowing what the hell is really going on and they live there! What's the end result? They are fighting each other...supposedly.

Here's a little info for everyone...You will never know the truth at this point because you are not meant to. Remember those other Countries? It took us years to uncover any semblance of truth and yet many still deny it. That's how we defeat ourselves right from the beginning.

We may be right but proving it and convincing others is the real battle.

Jude11

The USSR was begged by the Afghan government to bring troops into Afghanistana as the country was being terrorised by terrorists. Terrorists created and supplied by (yes you've guessed it and it ainst the Eskimos) the good old USA.

reply to: tsurfer2000h

a reply to: Nikola014

I'm really confused by your stance. Even Putin has admitted that he sent troops into Crimea, weeks before he officially "annexed" it into Russia.

I just don't see how any can say there were/are not Russian regulars in the Ukraine at this point.

a reply to: Nikola014

Well, then who's fighting Ukrainian military and why are they called rebels/separatists, if they are soldiers from Russia? Why are Ukrainian people escaping to Russia and not to Kiev?

Why are they called separatists...because they want to separate from Ukraine. And as far as the active troops in Ukraine they are there and you know it.

People are going to Russia because it is closer than Kiev.

Yes, they are called volunteers and I am not talking about them. But you can play naive as much as you want to.

Call them what you want, as it doesn't change the fact that active Russian troops are fighting in Ukraine.

Question for you, would you take your vacation to a nice beautiful place, or spend it fighting a war that they shouldn't be.

It's the guardian! The same source that told us their reporters saw Russian military vehicles crossing the border while forgetting to carry their camera with them to capture that!

Good try, but the guardian has been used by both sides, so trying to say it isn't credible won't fly.

Care to provide a source for that?

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

That's because you haven't been paying attention on what I've been saying about this subject on numerous threads about the conflict in Ukraine!

Yes, he activated troops that were stationed in Crimea to protect the Russians living there. Do you know that not a single person died during their action? Pretty impressive. And he didn't annexed anything. There was a referendum! That's the definition of democracy, if you ask me. Allowing people to decide for themselves. Unlike the western democracy, where they bomb you first.

I will ask for evidence again. And I mean real evidence. Don't you ever wonder how come we don't have any amateur photo or video of Russian military soldiers and vehicles crossing the border, marching trough streets and stuff? Lack of proof is enough of a proof for me.

EDIT: Tsurfer, sure. It was a ATS thread created by one of your buddies. Just look at it in the search box. I'd do it myself, but for some reason, the search box will not load for me!

originally posted by: jude11
And to be honest I have to ask why is it that you, S.O are posting so much on the topic? I have never seen you post so much on one issue since I've been here…

I think my Thread History is rather well-rounded.

and to be clear, I'm wondering why.

And as I mentioned in one of the other threads, I think what's going on is a really important geopolitical development that deserves more serious attention on ATS.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Russia was allowed to have some 25.000 troops to protect the Russian naval base and there were only 11.000 at that time, and according to Putin they haven`t exceeded that number.

There are also rumours, Russia might have also handed out uniforms and weapons to local defence fighters to give the impression there were more of them.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Has Blackwater been deployed to Ukraine? Notorious U.S. mercenaries 'seen on the streets of flashpoint city' as Russia claims 300 hired guns have arrived in country

Unidentified armed men seen on the streets of Donetsk in east Ukraine
Russian diplomat claims 300 mercenaries had arrived in Kiev this week
Mercenaries in the region could give Putin pretext for military action


Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk... 8O
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

400 US mercenaries 'deployed on ground' in Ukraine military op

rt.com...

Outta my face!' Foreign fighters filmed on ground with Kiev army

www.youtube.com...

So, propaganda, or fact of foreign participation can be claimed on both sides. Your proof is no better than mine is.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

a reply to: Nikola014

There was much more than simple "activation" of existing troops.

On February 28, 13 Russian IL-76 landed with airborne troops. There were more reports of additional troops crossing from Russia to Crimea, but the IL-76 has multi-source confirmation, and was admitted by Putin in the recent documentary.

And that referendum? Not only was it illegal under the Ukrainian constitution, and the reports of fraud were widespread. And don't forget, the only two options didn't' contain an option for keeping the status quo. It's not a valid argument for what happened.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

When we talk illegal, overthrow of the legally elected president Yanuckovich was also illegal, and i don't see people talking about that.

So you connect fraud and elections? How shocking. Not like fraud happens in every election everywhere in the world. BUT, in this case, i strongly believe that majority of Crimean people are for joining Russia, simply because over 80% are Russians.

But see, what happened in Crimea is not connected with what we're talking about now, considering not one bullet was shot during the action. The fact is, people cannot confirm that there are Russian troops fighting alongside the rebels. And I am not talking about volunteers!

a reply to: Nikola014

This is slightly off topic but I thought it is fairly humorous.

Czechs told not to throw tomatoes, eggs at US military convoy

rt.com...

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

1) When there had been an illegal coup (it was unlawful), Crimea didn`t recognize the new government

2) The coup violated also the Budapest memorandum...

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is a political agreement signed in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.

The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996, of which Ukraine had physical though not operational control. The use of the weapons was dependent on Russian controlled electronic Permissive Action Links and the Russian command and control system.

Source

...it was violated first by the US by making a coup in the Ukraine.

So both the Budapest agreement and the Ukrainian law were already broken by the other side by that time.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Interestingly my take on this is somewhat opposite.

It is a good sign for Ukraine that Oligarchs are being forced to make overt moves like this to protect their 'turf'. It means that the government was changing and that corruption was being investigated even at the highest levels. Of course it won't change overnight and Poroshenko can't win every battle, but this is a good step forward.

Don't fall for the Russian spin that Ukraine is out of control. When a new government takes on a Billionaire like this there will be push back. Poroshenko will manage it...hopefully! It is no doubt a huge challenge. The culture of massive corruption that Russia instilled in Ukraine is strong.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Wiki huh? Remember when its about russia THEY EDIT IT. Cant trust wiki on this subject.

originally posted by: Nikola014
The fact is, people cannot confirm that there are Russian troops fighting alongside the rebels. And I am not talking about volunteers!

This Vice story clearly shows Russian soldiers being pressured into signing waivers to go fight in Ukraine...because Russia has a law that stops conscripts fighting on foreign soil.

news.vice.com...

I've linked it to you many times and you always refuse to address it. So I put the link here for others who actually want to see the truth and not you.

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Wiki huh? Remember when its about russia THEY EDIT IT. Cant trust wiki on this subject.

More to your liking ?

Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, 1994

a reply to: CharlesT

Outta my face!' Foreign fighters filmed on ground with Kiev army

Except they are trying to say they are Blackwater, but also calling them Academi...

Any suggestion that a U.S. mercenary outfit like Academi had begun operating in the country could give Russian president Vladimir Putin the pretext for a military invasion.

www.dailymail.co.uk... FQyWM

And then we have this from Academi formerly known as Blackwater...

The Real Facts Behind Recent Reporting on ACADEMI in Ukraine

May 15, 2014

Some irresponsible news outlets have recently posted rumors that ACADEMI employees are operating in Ukraine. They are not and any reports to the contrary are completely false.

Many of these reports have also given the impression that ACADEMI and the company Blackwater are the same and this is also completely false.

The basics: Blackwater's owner sold the company's US-based training facility to a group of private investors in 2010. Those owners renamed the facility and the new company created to support it ACADEMI. The former owner of Blackwater retained all rights to the Blackwater name as well as many of the companies that once operated under the umbrella of Blackwater. ACADEMI has no existing relationship with him. The new management of ACADEMI has made tremendous efforts to build a responsible, transparent company ethos, evidenced by the numerous awards ACADEMI has received for being among the most compliant companies in our industry. More information can be found here.

Unfounded statements and accusations such as those in recent news reports, combined with a lack of research about the company, are nothing more than sensationalistic efforts to create hysteria and headlines in times of genuine crisis.

ACADEMI is not Blackwater, and ACADEMI has no personnel in Ukraine.

www.academi.com...

Also just having someone yell Blackwater at uniformed men doesn't automatically mean that's who they are.

Care to provide anything else that reports Academi as the company in Ukraine, because as you can see they aren't in Ukraine.

a reply to: CharlesT

Charles. the Guy shouting get out of my way was not a US operator. his accent was ENGLISH(aka England) And then again ALOT of russians and spec forces are taught english or were at times.

a reply to: FlyersFan

My bad, keep up the good fight for transparency in the Ukraine.

a reply to: yuppa

My point was that just about anything you see or read on this infernal satanic device can be manipulated, falsified, distorted and just a flat out lie. I believe my propaganda just as much as you believe yours and that's just the way it is.