Whether Or Not Homosexuality Is A Choice Is Irrelevant

Just a thought I have had, that I figured I may as well make a thread about. People like to turn the whole issue of homosexuality into whether or not it is a choice. The religious saying, 'It's a choice!' as an argument for illegalities and such involving homosexuality. Others saying 'it's not a choice!' as a counter-argument. I don't really see why this is the defining issue of it. Even if it were a choice. If our sexuality were not pre-defined, and one simply became homosexual through a variety of personal interpretations and choices...so? Then prohibitions against it would be legitimate? We need to remove this idea that the purpose of law is to stop people from making what some consider to be 'bad' choices. Individuals should be free to make whatever choices they want, so long as they're not harming another. So, why is the issue of whether choice is a factor or not so prominent in the debate?

a reply to: TheJourney

I guess it's because some see homosexuality as a phenomenon which goes against the idea of nature being M+F to multiply. So it is viewed as something not of the norm which needs investigating.

The natural route of the investigation is to ask 'why are some people gay?'

The next step is to decide whether it is choice or not - the route of the 'why?'

So I think it's a valid question/point to observe because it helps us understand homosexuality, sexual urges and the human psyche.

you seem to be one of the few people that seem to understand why the debate is all wrong.
the issue is that we are defining a person by what they do in their bedroom, and that represents at most 20% of what a person is about.
Even if tomorrow we found out, that without doubt, homosexuality was a choice...so what? that just means it's a sexual preference you have, a thing that you are into, it should still not be used to define your entire existence.
And as long as you prove to not be a danger for society, nobody has any right to set limits in terms of what you can, cannot do, or make assumptions about you.
that's like saying that since i like rough sex, i support domestic violence.
The parallel makes no sense.
The conversation should NOT be is it natural or not, the conversation should be: why should we even allow ourselves to be defined only by what we do in the bedroom and not by the totality of our being.

I guess it all boils down to this:
there are people that do not like or approve of certain things just becuase and they will latch onto anything just to justify it

originally posted by: TheJourney
So, why is the issue of whether choice is a factor or not so prominent in the debate?

*Channels Pat Robertson Voice*

"Homosexuality is a sin and God would never create a being who had no choice or decision in whether or not to commit sin. Please, brothers and sisters, ignore the fact that every human is born into sin as directly stated in the Good Book because that fact makes the Homosexuality choice versus nature argument pointless because God would never create an imperfect being*"
*Statement ONLY applies to sexual orientation since we're supposed to all feel huge amounts of guilt over the FACT that there has never been a "perfect" human being on Earth who wasn't named Jesus Christ.

Frankly, I think a lot of people got shoved into a corner. "The idea of a man and a man is really gross to me as a straight dude" is, for some reason, not an acceptable reason to be openly uncomfortable or even personally offended when confronted with the issue. Religion, however, often gets a pass so long as some manner of religious leaders can convince a segment of people that a belief is "by the book" so-to-speak... so it became a lot easier to just say the issue was offputting because of religious beliefs... Just my opinion on it.

a reply to: IShotMyLastMuse

For me it's not about defining people and labelling them...

It's about understanding the brain, innate urges and why we as individuals differ. From a psychological perspective the question "Is gay a choice?" is about investigating human behaviour, motivations and possible environmental factors. Whatever the reason it makes for good psych. study.

But you're right, people get caught up in labeling, naming, judging.... Let's just investigate objectively something which is undoubtably a phenomenon.

a reply to: TheJourney

Because even in the USA as late as 2003 [and still currently in some places (North New Orleans)] Sodomy laws were still in effect.

Sodomy laws have been used for centuries against men and women but mostly men to punish for homosexual behaviors and acts. For many of those centuries, the punishment for sodomy was death. Thomas Jefferson tried to get the penalty reduced in Virginia to mutilation (castration for men, cutting a chock of the bridge of the nose for women) but that didn't fly because it was too lenient.

Anyone younger than about 30 probably has little idea of "how it was" even in this country a few short years ago. I'm 49. I can remember the first time I saw the word "gay" on the headline of the Atlanta Journal Constitution ... and I gasped because, well ... we just didn't talk about that in public ...

THAT is one the main reasons why activists have pointed to our sexual orientation being an innate, inborn, inherited feature of ourselves that we have no control over. As gays and lesbians (and bisexuals, trans*, queer, and the rest of the merry band) as we were allowed simply to "be" in public, to open up our lives to people (coming out), it became ever more obvious (for many) that there was nothing backwards, or perverse, or sick, or deranged about being homosexual ... and most importantly, NOT HARMFUL TO SOCIETY AT LARGE OR TO ANY INDIVIDUAL.

That is the main difference between homosexuality and pedophilia (child abuse). We realized, culturally, that homosexuals who acted on their innate feelings and desires do not cause automatically harm between competent consenting adults ... it's just, a different way to live. Totally opposite to pedophilia which always causes harm because it involves a victim that literally cannot give consent.

"They can't help who they are" became a societal pry-bar to start to remove centuries of inaccurate societal beliefs about gays and lesbians.

NOW, we've come a long way, baby ... in some ways ... and folks are a lot more aware of all the complexities of sex, sexuality, gender, gender identity, etc. It is no longer (and will never be again) just a question of "gay or straight."

However, the battle for equality is not over. Witness the lunatic in CA who wants a Proposition permitting any citizen to shoot anyone they believe to be gay or lesbian in the head. Yes, it's insane and most of us understand that.

But he is not alone. That message still gets preached from pulpits and political stumps, and kids still get beaten and wired to old fences in the middle of nowhere and are left to die.

Anyway, just a thought.

a reply to: TheJourney

Because the fundamental Christians want to justify their view that gays should be punished and even killed for making the choice to sin against God (going against nature and God). They push this into politics and law.

So you see why it's important. The debate is in reaction to that.

The "it's not a choice" crowd do this to get them to see the light and to stop them from trying to control the gay people and passing laws to punish them.

It's the old argument.

It has to be considered a choice in order to be a sin.

It's not a choice so gay people are like "Um, I didn't choose this, and as if I'm going to take advice from some dude who can't dress himself anyways." etc..

It's all really typical debate but, yea, it's rather pointless. In the grand scheme of things we generally don't determine force of law on things based on whether or not they are choice, but based on whether or not they negatively effect other people -- the exceptions being drugs, prostitution, and gay families.

Im so glad I was born straight.

Im not sure I could handle all the insanity homosexuals have to deal with. What would you do if you were constantly asked why you chose to be straight? Its a maddening thought.

People are people. You are what you are. No human being is "outside of nature." Even lowly traits like intolerance and willful ignorance are human. We can only try and be better.

To answer OP, you're right, the debate about whether its a choice doesnt matter; only love matters. If you're not hurting anyone, and you find love, and protect it, and grow it, you are doing right, no matter what anyone's old book says.

a reply to: Martianlanded

I don't think many people still believe it is a choice, it is after all an old fashioned view. I however do not believe you are born gay (or straight?)...

Gay - not a choice but not born that way

a reply to: TheJourney

Who cares whether people are 'born gay' or choose to be gay?

In a world full of hate why do people get so hung up over consenting adults finding a bit of solace, and yes, even love.

I'm absolutely certain there are far more important things to concern one's self about.

a reply to: Freeborn

Yes, don't get hung up on it.... but investigate it as a way to understanding the human being and the brain.

a reply to: Freeborn

Who cares whether people are 'born gay' or choose to be gay?

Apparently the fundamental Christians.

They are the ones who try to control and yes have some laws passed punishing gay people.

Ats seems to be obsessed with the subject. It's not important, just as knowing everyone's favourite sexual position isn't important. There's an awful lot of insecurity on this site, whether it be be race or sexuality or gender issues. If people we're secure in who and what they are none of the other stuff matters.

Gay, Straight, Bi, Trans, Black, White, Yellow, Brown, Red, Jew, Moslem, Christian et cetera, et cetera, et cetera... on and on all ways to seperate us. We are not seperate, we are ONE. Diversity make the world interesting, all kinds of people and our job is to love each of our sisters and brothers for who they are. PEACE.

a reply to: TheJourney

Good post. I agree with you. It shouldn't matter if it's a choice or not.
That's irrelevant. If a same sex couple want to be a couple - be it by
natural inclination or by choice - they should be allowed. Period.

The problem for Christians is the fact that the Bible speaks of homosexuality in a condemnatory manner. Until they find a way to reconcile their belief system with acceptance of homosexuality ..they have to take a negative stance on the issue or neutral at best. It is much like the groups rising up in the middle east that adhere to their interpretations of their own belief systems.

My own feelings regarding homosexuality are....hot lesbians are ok and the rest are deviations from ideal. Well....it is a compromise...of sorts. It's the best I can do. I do feel that the existence of homosexuality stems from the frustration of the male and female energy at play within this sphere.

Right now the male/female relationship is at a low ebb (IMO) along with the quality of our lives. Our souls long for fulfillment on all levels and our flesh is failing to deliver. The "images" set before us have magnified the flesh and have caused us to exhaust the pursuit of it. And now our springs are dried up and we long for clean waters and green pastures.

a reply to: TheJourney

The Fundies need to claim it's a choice, because otherwise they would have to accept that their invisible sky wizard made LGBT people too, and that's a disconnect they just cannot fathom.

They did (and do) the same on so many issues, claiming on the one hand that God created everything, then selectively having to pick out little "clauses" when it turns out he must have therefore created all the things they despise too.

Look at the dinosaurs, their heads almost explode when trying to come up with explanations for that one. They still can't agree on one answer, some think their God put fossils here to "challenge" faith, others think Humans and Dinosaurs roamed the land together and science just has the dates wrong (lol), some even think the existence of Dinosaurs is a Satanic conspiracy to undermine their God!

If they admit that being gay is a natural occurrence outside of our choices then they have to then admit that their precious and arrogant God created us all, and that we therefore all deserve the same respect and rights. As organized religion is built on the notion of power over others, being superior to other Humans and controlling their lives, the fundies cannot possibly accept it as it would make them all no more powerful or righteous than anyone else.

originally posted by: HarryJoy
The problem for Christians is the fact that the Bible speaks of homosexuality in a condemnatory manner. Until they find a way to reconcile their belief system with acceptance of homosexuality ..they have to take a negative stance on the issue or neutral at best.

Nope.
If this were the case, we would have all those same "Christians" campaigning about the right to own slaves, the eating of shellfish, the cutting of hair, selling their daughters, wearing only sackcloth...

How is it that the religious can selectively pick out the convenient hate from their book while completely ignoring all the other hundreds of instructions and demands their Bible makes of them?

No religious freak should ever be listened to when preaching from their "Holy Book", unless they adhere to EVERYTHING within it. To do otherwise is hypocritical in the extreme. Either follow the "word of God" to the letter, or STFU.

a reply to: HarryJoy

The problem for Christians is the fact that the Bible speaks of homosexuality in a condemnatory manner.

Actually it doesn't but that's for another thread.

a reply to: Rocker2013

How is it that the religious can selectively pick out the convenient hate from their book while completely ignoring all the other hundreds of instructions and demands their Bible makes of them?

They do! They have been asked that many times!