Here We Go Again! Body cam footage Dallas PD shoot mentally ill man

originally posted by: ItalianDressing
I have had contact with the police 8-10 times in my life... I am still alive, because I did not attack them! It is simple! They all each time treated me with the upmost respect and professionalism each and every single time. Because I did not threaten or attack them! Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

ID

They were responding to a call to take a mentally ill man to the hospital.
It's hard to say if he is "attacking" them or running to his mommy,

The police could have peacefully dealt with this man at a safer distance. Not yelling at an unstable man and shooting instantly. The mother didn't look frightened as they walked to the door together. He wasn't threatening the officers as he leaned against the door, twirling a screwdriver like a mindless child.

Remember this video was released by the family not the police
They think it helps their case, and I won't be surprised if they win a judgement.

Cities pay out millions to settle police lawsuits

A screwdriver can be deadly but arnt officers supposed to protect and serve the public us who arnt trained how is always drawing a gun protetecting anybody but themselves why even train them just give them the gun tell them if you dont think you can handle it shoot to kill seems its how things are starting to work now

a reply to: HighFive

this killing highlights the problem with police interactions with the mentally ill.

I completely agree. As I pointed out in a previous post, I think it's a training issue. And perhaps a little attitude adjustment with law enforcement. There are a lot of different kinds or "crazy." And knowing how to recognize and respond to the mentally ill person may save lives on both sides.

I remember a case recently where an "aggressive" police officer was hassling a local man known to suffer from mental illness. In the end he emptied his service weapon into the victim. Based on the way he sounded on the radio recording you would think this man had just done battle with the devil himself. And he may have actually been fighting something close to it. He was fired, but it was basically ruled a clean kill.

And then there are the "suicide by cop" folks. They don't necessarily want to hurt anyone, but they do want the police to shoot them.



dex

When she told them he was a schizo and off his rocker, they should have walked around to the other side of the car. I wouldn't want to be trapped between a car and somebody who was capable of causing me harm. Quick to pull out the guns, but not quick to say, "okay, let's get some space between and this supposed crazy guy."

On one hand, don't greet the police with screwdriver in your hand. On the other hand, don't become a police officer if you're stupid enough to actually allow yourself to be trapped between a schizo and a car.

They had to have known beforehand, to some extent, what type of call they were answering. One time when I was about 7 years old, I accidentally called 911, then hung up the phone. Within 5 minutes, there was a knock at the door. My father opened it, and there were two police officers at the door, and two others behind their units with their guns drawn; and they had no idea what type of call they were answering!

I dont see that they did anything wrong. he charged the officer on the left with a screwdriver after they identified themselves and told him to drop it screwdriver. at that point it was either eliminate the threat or end up having a screwdriver stabbed into your throat or eye. If someone came at me like that I would put him down too. Last I heard going after people with screwdrivers was a no no.

Probably the biggest mistake they may have made was pulling the car that close to the house and blocking themselves in. I dont know what protocol is on that though nor do I know the layout of the property. I dont think I have ever seen police pull and park that close to a house before if it was their car. Usually its a good car length or two back from the entrance.

Its a nightmare for an LE to have to draw and fire on an individual. Domestic disturbance calls are also extremely dangerous and you never know what your getting into. I would not even recommend doing it unless your comfortable with a family member going to jail or being shot. People seem to think they should be able to use LE as a referee in an argument sometimes over stupid crap. The second LE step onto your property you have zero control over the situation.

It's amazing to me that this guy's Mom called the police to report that her son is potentially dangerous and calmly starts to leave for work when the officers arrive. She expected them to stay there and babysit him until she got off work??? I think the mother was a little off her rocker too!

Police aren't normally afraid of screwdrivers to the point of killing someone who lunges at them with one. But, I think this incident occurred back when EBOLA fears were high in Dallas. The mentally ill man looks like he could be African. Assuming this incident did occur during the EBOLA outbreak, it's pretty easy to connect the dots in this case.
-cwm

a reply to: Sremmos80

I understand your point and wish it didn't happen. But it takes seconds to unfold. Here you have an unstable person charging an officer with a leathal weapon at very close range who's ignoring clear orders. Sad but predictable ending indeed. Sorry for the boy...

a reply to: twiztedjester

I don't know if you ever been in shooting or close to a leathal situation but I can assure you that just afterward, when the threat is gone, the is a great rush of adrenaline and you need to catch your breath. So yes you can say stuff like that afterward. Nobody wants to be involve in stuff like that.

a reply to: Autorico
Try this with a friend. Give like 6-8 feet of distance to your pal with a mock knife or whatever you like already in his hand, ready to stab. Let him rush toward you and then try to react non-violently. Dodge, trip, subdue. You'll get your answer. There was no time/space to react otherwise,

Its probably common practice in America but I heard the tear of velcro before the door was opened ( gun drawn? ) which is another way police deal with those type of instances differently here in Australia. Too trigger happy for mine.

For starters "if" a gun was already drawn the officers should have just spoke to him as their safety was already covered and he was a few meters away, he was just fiddling with the screwdriver as if he had just been using it and not start off demanding escalating the situation and talk to him, I didn't see a lung though he took a step outside, heck his mother didn't seem at all afraid of her son, if she was she wouldn't have even answered the door turning her back on a screwdriver wielding maniac.

Way too trigger happy.

Failure analysis of this video clearly shows 5-6 indicators on the part of LE after the guy was down.

If you use the play and pause button you can also see the son's feet never leave the small cement pad in front of the door, and he actually turns immediately to his left and his body is about 4-6 inches from the side of the house.

Why did the cop cover his camera?
Why did they say 'drop it' after the son was face down on the driveway, almost touching the garage door?
Why did they say 'drop it' several more times after the son was obviously incapacitated, if not already deceased, finger over the camera?
How could the cop know he was alive unless he checked his pulse (perhaps he was just in postmortem tremors?)?
Why did they fear a screwdriver that was, at most 3" long and further being held laterally, the son fiddling with it?
To be sure their sgt bought the story, they said 'we had to shoot' as though it was not self-evident that it was possibly an over-reaction?
Why did they start saying 'we can't talk about it', and then keep talking? They were already asserting 5th amendment rights (against self-incrimination?)
The department, itself, states they are considering POSSIBLE CRIMINAL charges.

A Dallas police spokesman told the Dallas Morning News that a criminal investigation into the shooting of Harrison has been completed, and that the case has been forwarded to the Dallas County district attorney's office for possible criminal charges

I do have to find fault with the mother who should have never let the son come to the door holding anything, even a can opener. She should have stayed there AND asked for an ambulance, not two armed, and unknown and possibly untrained individuals.

a reply to: Maverick7

your speculating a lot. A 3" screwdriver can do a lot of damage and they are very close. I dont see the LE going into magnum force mode and just gunning this guy down. I have known some pretty tough cops through the years and the last thing they want to have to deal with is shooting people and dealing with the aftermath. all the talk your hearing after is just panic for the most part. possibly an inexperienced officer if they were part ered up in the same car. This is common for training.

all the covering of cameras and not talking is just the officers protecting themselves in the event they screwed up and didnt realize it. Thats not uncommon either.

Its all hard to say truthfully. I dont like to see LE continuously attacked because that job is very strange and its basically impossible to be perfect at it when dealing with different types of people and problems on a daily basis. I dont like to see bad police either though. My gut feeling is it was just a perfect storm of conditions that went bad. This is the kind of crap that goes on with Domestic disturbances though. You really have no idea what your walking into. after incident quarterbacking is easy but being there in the now with fractions of seconds to react is a different story. LE officers have families they go home to after work too. Believe me....domestic issues are some of the least favorite calls they have to make because of the dangers involved. Those police could have easily been facing a shotgun barrel when the door opened. you just dont know.

a reply to: Domo1

So according to you, cops should kill every crazy person off his meds.
Its not like these crazies will put down their screwdrivers, so just kill them every time something like this happens?

The mother calls and tells them she has a son off his meds. Is that an automatic death sentence the mom just put on her son?

a reply to: iFloButta

LOL...if they are going after people with screwdrivers yes...put them down. what other option do you have?

we really need LE firearms that have stun options. Even then though in this instance I dont know if there was time. also he is coming at them with a weapon which escalates the situation to a different level. without the screwdriver he probably would have been tazed to get him under control. Once they told him to drop it and he didnt they may have been trained to go to lethal force.

a reply to: agenda51

Anything but lethal force. The guy is ill and shouldn't be killed. I agree the cops dont have much choice but then the problem would be with who dealt with the situation. If a call includes the words "mentally ill", then a more experienced or specially trained someone should respond.

When tasers were first mentioned for Law enforcement. The police appealed to the public to allow their use because they would be used in lieu of deadly force for situations like this. That standard has changed they now they are allowed to use them for failure to comply with the police order. So they are right back to killing people when a taser or baton should suffice. Myself I could've disarmed that man rather quickly with just a baton.

They lied to us back then they are lying to us now. Tasers are used on unarmed people and guns are still used in circumstances where they shouldn't be.

Domo1
Bull. They didn't escalate anything, they asked him to put down the screwdriver multiple times until he lunged at the cop that was certainly close enough to be in danger.

I've been in a similar situation: within arm's reach of a schizophrenic or individual under the influence of PCP/meth (the exact circumstance was unclear at time) armed with an improvised weapon exhibiting signs of potentially intending to use the weapon on me. The encounter ended peacefully because I maintained tone control, asserted dominance, aggressively de-escalated the situation while making my willingness to fully escalate apparent and clear from body language, tone and actions.

Without a full view of the action, I don't think you can condemn the officers in this situation. It's a gnarly situation to find yourself in.

But I do think the officers unnecessarily escalated the situation by shouting rather than directing the suspect, by letting panic and/or fear show in their voices and, though less clear, possibly by making aggressive escalating movements (arms raised and pointed at suspect) rather than aggressively de-escalating physical movements using open but commanding postures and gestures.

I think this incident and a significant number of such incidents would be avoided with better conflict resolution training focused on aggressive de-escalation strategies and techniques.

I see the cop apologists are in good and early. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest, as these are likely the same kind of people who'd say the Tamir Rice shooting was a clean kill. If cops are terrified of getting up close and personal with those people they encounter who are less conformative, they need to train in some method of non-lethal, distance-maintaining arrest procedure. Something similar to the poles that dog wardens use to control unruly dogs, maybe, or some kind of bolas/lasso. Two trained cops with a lasso should be able to ensure any single person is unable to mount a successful attack on an officer or other member of the public, until enough officers arrive to approach the subject with confidence. The usual number is about 8 cops, but I'd like to think that could be lowered with adequate professionalism.

a reply to: IvanAstikov

I think people who have not been in a direct confrontation with a large individual who's actions are unpredictable and dangerous due to schizophrenia or particular types of substance abuse do not fully understand how volatile the situation can be.

This is especially true if there are innocent third parties in the vicinity.

You can tell, especially with training, when someone is thinking about escalating. You can never be sure. You have a second to make a decision.

Like I said, I think these officers handled this poorly. The way the suspect was handling the screwdriver was not initially threatening. The officers rapidly verbally escalated, without clear reason to do so.

That doesn't mean their actions are criminal or that they had intent.

Perhaps they should not be police officers because this does not look like a situation that was handled well.

But also remember that LEOs handle probably somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 such situations daily in the U.S.A.

If 5 end with application of lethal force that's still a 99.99% - 99.995% success rate.

Not apologizing for these guys. In my opinion they needlessly escalated and should be investigated, possibly disciplined and possibly dismissed for doing so.

But it's not as clear cut as people would like it to be. Real life is messy.