Occupotty: We can't pee

Physical sex is distinct from gender. Gender is largely the social factors of perceived femininity and masculinity. However, laws have been proposed to redefine gender as physical sex, and force trans*folks who are pre-sexual reassignment to use the bathrooms they were assigned at birth. www.themarysue.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">www.themarysue.com... -legislation/

People are people, and the trans* community is simply looking to be afforded their constitutional rights. Legislations like these, general ignorance in society and the medical community, shows how far the movement still has to go.

*Edit* I just wanted to get a general sense of the ATS community's understanding of this issue. Civil rights issues impact each of us, but this subject tends to bring out the ignorance in folks pretty quickly. I'd ask you to remember the terms and conditions, and avoid being purposefully malicious.

How can we help create transparency around these issues? Where is the line between sensitive and sensible decency? Slippery slope fallacies surrounding this issue are so prevalent...

Seriously though, spending money to enforce laws which would require "bathroom policing", is some serious bull.

a reply to: hearows

Show me where in the constitution is states third or whatever number gender they qualify themselves as? This wasn't an issue until people got upset about seeing a man in the women's restroom I believe south park even debunked this as a cry from people who feel isolated by their own doing. These social outcast need to suck it up and use their Wang in a urinal like normal men with penises do. Don't wanna stand up theres a stalk right behind you. Don't like being judged for being A man dress to the 9's like a woman and still have a Penis between your legs go to the men's room get over yourselves.

A few things come to mind here if you went as fsr as to go trans gender your more than likly not going for the sex your becoming as a partner just an assumption 2 if you become male your male weather or not you do it and want a male partner only makes you for lacke of better terms "gay" 3 if this person was using the urinal beside nme id never question or know he was once a she even if he had breast id be more inclined to think wth and leave it alone not question therefore even with the law in place how would anybody know he didnt start as a he in the bathroom at all?

a reply to: 5thNovember

Separate but equal accommodation wouldn't be very progressive. The law would PREVENT people from using whatever bathroom they felt comfortable using. Not creating accommodations for a "third" gender, which is not what a transitioning person is. The person in the picture is a man, who was born female, who under this legislation would be required to use the bathroom according to the gender he was assigned at birth. As for a "third" gender, gender is a social definition, so that's a personal definition. But even human biology has a spectrum of potential genitalia.

Intersex, which, again... Trans*folks aren't by necessity intersex. But intersex genitalia en.m.wikipedia.org...

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics includingchromosomes, gonads, or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotypeother than XY-male and XX-female.[1][2

Also

Australia and some other nationalities have adopted "X" as a valid third category besides "M" (male) and "F" (female), at least since 2003.

Just to be clear, the south park episode was outlining separate but equal legislation's absurdity. These folks are looking for freedom from legislation which would single them out.

I more or less feel if you want to be a woman and became a women your using the womens bathroom and like wise if you became a man its the mens sorey if your not comfortable with that part vut that was your choice not the oppisite no fircing a "man/woman" back into their "birth bathroom"

a reply to: twiztedjester

Because, unfortunately, versions of this legislation were pushing for genital examination of the students to determine which bathroom they were permitted to use.

a reply to: twiztedjester

Exactly if you've completed the change then your sex has changed.. why don't people get that.

a reply to: 5thNovember

Well then you can see how absurd legislation which would have tax dollars being spent to bathroom police people just trying to go about their business is. Also, if someone's genitalia becomes relevant to you, or their preferred gender, I'd suspect that's a personal issue.

originally posted by: hearows
a reply to: twiztedjester

Because, unfortunately, versions of this legislation were pushing for genital examination of the students to determine which bathroom they were permitted to use.

seems it would violate our rights and it is rediculous governments are spending time on this if you have a penis urnials are for you even gay or trans gay and vice versa i dont want to see a v in a mens restroom even if she once was a man your a female you chose it and without "examining" people you woud have no clue its a waste and in my op you feel it should happen im open to why but higly doubt you can lrove otherwise

originally posted by: 5thNovember
a reply to: twiztedjester

Exactly if you've completed the change then your sex has changed.. why don't people get that.

refusal to accept and believe i guess because its not "normal"

originally posted by: hearows
a reply to: 5thNovember

Well then you can see how absurd legislation which would have tax dollars being spent to bathroom police people just trying to go about their business is. Also, if someone's genitalia becomes relevant to you, or their preferred gender, I'd suspect that's a personal issue.

very much so such a waste this is peoples tax dollars at work .

a reply to: 5thNovember

Because there are points before that. For example, the person in the article would likely still have a vagina. The whole point is that the legislation is being focused on those who haven't yet undertaken the risky and expensive procedure to change their genitalia, because for many, taking enough hormones to live their lives as women/men without drawing unnecessary attention to themselves is enough. Laws shouldn't require someone to change their genitals to change their gender if they choose to because I can't imagine how it's anyone's business but their own. Nobody's genitals, or sexual preference for that matter, should have any impact on anyone else. And yet, somehow, people get so flustered about these folks existences that they try and make legislation that shames them for existing in public. It shouldn't matter what they look like. And gender segregated bathrooms are absurd to begin with. Men need changing tables etc. One should be able to use whatever bathroom suits their needs without someone getting up in arms about it. Some of the fear is stemming from sexual harassment, which is illegal anyway.

a reply to: hearows
risks mean nothing how many people risk their lives over physical appearance, plastic surgery boob jobs etc. These people shouldn't get any special treatment. People just looking for ways to try and say their different and after they get their way they will start to say their better than normal people I can see it now.... You have to be able to accept the future if your going to speculate.

a reply to: twiztedjester

If nothing else, I'm certain the ATS community understands that just because something is normal doesn't make it correct. There's so much we still don't understand about the mind, and there's no reason to invalidate someone's self definition because we might not be able to understand it. I feel like many who don't understand what being transgendered means to people have never met anyone going through it. They're simply pursuing their own happiness. Each step of gender reassignment requires huge amounts of medical and psychological supervision. It's not a decision anymore than sexual orientation, and it's profoundly impactful, yet their personal struggles are consistently invalidated by claims that their situation isn't "real" or "normal". I know this community doesn't allow society to define them, so why try to force your ideas of gender on someone else. The more we learn, the more we're seeing social gender as a spectrum. Physical reality is just that, skin color, genitals, might change a few key medical factors (cervical cancer, genetic predispositions), but it doesn't define who someone is.

a reply to: hearows

Fine a counter argument I'm the pope and I want to be treated and respected that way by the whole world because I feel that way. There's your sign..

originally posted by: 5thNovember
a reply to: hearows
risks mean nothing how many people risk their lives over physical appearance, plastic surgery boob jobs etc. These people shouldn't get any special treatment. People just looking for ways to try and say their different and after they get their way they will start to say their better than normal people I can see it now.... You have to be able to accept the future if your going to speculate.

if aperson wants to be a male goes through all the procuders to be a male and does it in a fact they want men wouldnt that in truth make them a man just "gay" if not what should we do about real gays make a third bathroom for them and a fourth fir transgenders

The answer to this problem is super simple: while transitioning a person should use the bathroom they most look like they belong in. Problem solved and nobody has to be unhappy or sue or waste tax dollars.

The world really isn't as complicated as people make it out to be.

a reply to: twiztedjester

Valid point I agree but that would make us bigots...

a reply to: 5thNovember

They're looking to be treated as individuals and to go about their daily lives with the rights others are afforded. The constitution discriminated by gender, and race, and was ratified for those reasons.

I don't understand what you'd define as "normal". But laws trying to segregate by physical anatomy have been historically found unconstitutional.

Your argument, that they're looking to be " better than normal people " shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the issue.

I had explained before. They're looking for freedom FROM extra legislation, extra accommodation. To be treated normally, with the same rights afforded everyone else.

As for the future. Hate and ignorance are fortunately antiquated and a society which has progressed to the point where individuals are valued as such, without being haphazardly lumped into groups, sounds great to me.

Extra rights. They're not looking for extra. They're looking to be recognized. Allowed to be who they are as individuals without someone else attempting to decide it for them. Your worldview doesn't determine the legitimacy of their personal definition of their gender. Your belief that genitals dictate gender doesn't make it truth. Just like, fortunately for you, my opinion of your intelligence doesn't make you thick

a reply to: 5thNovember

They're looking to be treated as individuals and to go about their daily lives with the rights others are afforded. The constitution discriminated by gender, and race, and was ratified for those reasons.

I don't understand what you'd define as "normal". But laws trying to segregate by physical anatomy have been historically found unconstitutional.

Your argument, that they're looking to be " better than normal people " shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the issue.

I had explained before. They're looking for freedom FROM extra legislation, extra accommodation. To be treated normally, with the same rights afforded everyone else.

As for the future. Hate and ignorance are fortunately antiquated and a society which has progressed to the point where individuals are valued as such, without being haphazardly lumped into groups, sounds great to me.

Extra rights. They're not looking for extra. They're looking to be recognized. Allowed to be who they are as individuals without someone else attempting to decide it for them. Your worldview doesn't determine the legitimacy of their personal definition of their gender. Your belief that genitals dictate gender doesn't make it truth. Just like, fortunately for you, my opinion of your intelligence doesn't make you thick