Exclusive: From 'Red October' village, new evidence on downing of Malaysian plane over Ukraine

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

We still don't know what happened because it takes a year or more for the final report to come out.

That`s what I have been saying from day 1, however the Western media/Politicians (it`s even the December war Resolutions of the US) and many have been trumpeting relentless the same old baseless story, including you...

The only thing now which can proof the investiagtion has been done independently is northing more as the following conclusions.

- It was a BUK or SA-6 system, but we don`t know exactly who (they might know, but don`t want to tell it)

- It was done by fighter jets

Any other conclusion won`t be trusted anymore because of the relentless propaganda which has been going on towards Russia/Putin in general, the baseless propaganda about the MH17 perpetrators, pushing of falsified informations by one of he investigating members, one of the most likely suspects being part of the investigating team who`s able to withhold evidence as they like, and the withholding of satellite/radar images by the US.

Well a large part of the reason is they were not allowed into the area to investigate. And after they managed to get in its for short periods of time . Not to mention the wreckage was tampered with prior to investigators getting there. The investigation is probably done but if it turns out Russia did it now is not the time to address that.

a reply to: dragonridr

Well a large part of the reason is they were not allowed into the area to investigate. And after they managed to get in its for short periods of time . Not to mention the wreckage was tampered with prior to investigators getting there.

They were allowed to investigate in Separatists controlled area from the beginning, but the Dutch government tried to pull some crap about not wanting to negotiate with the Separatists because it would look like they were recognizing them, which has gotten them a great deal of criticism in the Netherlands, because it would not have meant in recognizing them.

Malaysia did however negotiate with the Separatists about the Black Box at the same time, and months later all of a sudden it wasn`t problem at all. Part of the crash site was however not accessible because the Ukrainian army started to attack it, while they agreed to be not doing that. And every time the investigators wanted to go in, mysteriously the Ukrainian army started to attack the crash site again and again and again.

The Dutch investigators have found many metal fragments in one of the pilot his corpse back in August/September already, so they know what has happened, and same goes for the Americans who have infrared satellites who are capable of picking up even the slightest heat signature source and are able to determine that way what has happened but haven`t released any of it.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

I'm sorry you were mislead but no they wouldn't let them near the plane at first. Had nothing to do with negotiations since they were escorting them the problem was they kept telling them it wad tine to go every time they got started. Than there was all the plane parts they removed with a bulldozer I'm sure they were just stacking it up for them so they wouldn't have to walk.

a reply to: dragonridr

I`m not mislead, you were, with not having access to Dutch news.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

and as we stated time and again the rebels tampered with the crime scenes by doing what they did.

if you have no background in evidence collection and preservation then you don't touch the crime scene. you secure it until those with proper training arrive.

Its goes with the general rule - "If its wet, sticky and not yours, don't touch it".

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

and as we stated time and again the rebels tampered with the crime scenes by doing what they did.

LOL!

The cockpit area of MH17 has a huge hole exactly in the position of the pilot seat which you claimed the "Dutch investigators determined" was caused by a SAM":

"An air to air missile will not his in the area described based on the capabilities of an SU-25.
Bullets fired from a fighter jet will not cause high velocity damage as described in the report.
Bullets fired from an aircraft will not cause the instant loss of communications nor would it cause enough damage for the aircraft to breakup in midair as described."

And here you are again saying it was caused by tampering by the rebels!

You do like to have your cake and eat it too, don't you

a reply to: Psynic

So you deny that the rebels cut up and removed large chunks of wreckage? Let me guess, they were preserving it for investigators.

a reply to: Zaphod58

They have left it the way it was.

What you guys are talking about was Western propaganda, which our prime minister had to excuse himself for publicly because he also did it.

All what has happened, there were some pieces laying on a road which locals tried to cut up and which Separatists actually have protected, but Western media have spun a whole different story around it. The vast majority of the wreckage was completely untouched at the exact place it came down when finally Dutch experts came early November to pick up the pieces they wanted.

The rest of the pieces have been also nicely collected and put into storage at request after that.

The crash site has been visited several times between the 17th of July and late December by Dutch journalists.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

uhm... ok

International Monitors: Pro-Russian Rebels In Ukraine Have Sawed Into The MH17 Wreckage

Investigators from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe say pro-Russian rebels have "hacked into" pieces of the downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 wreckage with power saws, NBC News reports.

The rear of the plane, which constitutes one of the biggest pieces of wreckage found at the crash site in eastern Ukraine, has "definitely been hacked into," OSCE spokesman Michael Bociurkiw said. The cockpit has also been cut into with a saw, but Bociurkiw said that could have been done in an attempt to reach bodies.

Pro-Russian rebels who have taken control of eastern Ukraine have been accused of tampering with evidence at the MH17 crash site. U.S. officials have said that it was likely a rebel missile that brought down the passenger plane with 298 people on board, but Russia is saying that the Ukrainian government is to blame for the disaster.


Read more: www.businessinsider.com...

Russia is a member of the OSCE so I guess they are part of the "western plot"?

Google Translate:

'Stealing scum' MH17 was really disaster relief Ukraine

Immediately after the crash of flight MH17 has a team of 800 volunteers under the leadership of the national disaster relief Ukraine salvage operations carried out in the disaster area. The government admits that this work "more efficient" than expected.

"Once you Imagine that you have to lose your spouse and then must still worry that rig with his wedding ring run off," said Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans (PvdA) in the Security Council over a week after the crash of MH17 . The emotional words of the Minister went around the world. Everyone spoke of shame that drunken thugs who foraged through the crash zone as a supermarket without cash registers.

Professional job

But some journalists on the spot told another story. They could not confirm the raids in the area. Indeed, there seemed to be quite professional work carried out in the area. The head of the repatriation mission, Pieter-Jaap Aalbersberg said thank local people for all the support and the work that was done.

And now the government must also admit that the situation was different than originally outlined. In a letter to parliament the government responded that the State Emergency Service, the national disaster relief of Ukraine, conducted a search with 800 volunteers. These people have the major part of the disposal work of the body taken on behalf.

Expedient

And they have done that quite well: "It is the assessment of the parties involved in the investigation that finding, although not made in accordance with Dutch standards, but that in the circumstances the highest is done. The fact that the researchers of the repatriation mission found little corpses, suggests that the Ukrainian efforts immediately after the disaster were more effective than originally thought. One has recovered as many bodies and later transferred to the identification team."

The Dutch authorities had not been informed of this work, mainly because they were communicating with Kiev, while the area under de facto control state of the self-proclaimed autonomous republic Donetsk. But that authority is not recognized by the Netherlands. Only on August 5 Aalbersberg spoke for the first time with the district in the region. There were nearly three weeks have passed since the crash of MH17.

Source

The bastards...

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

and yet they still tampered with the scene and cut into the plane while removing items.

a reply to: Xcathdra

To put out the fires, they have left it as much intact as possible.

The locals were asked to leave pieces in fields where they came down and months later they still hadn`t touched them.

You come up with a Western propaganda piece which was reporting a whole different story as what actually happened, stop reading that crap if you really want to know what goes on in the World.

Western media will only tell you what they want you to believe and not what really goes on.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

No you don't take a chainsaw to parts of the aircraft to put out a fire. They used it to cut pieces up and removed them. just like them finding the black boxes and turning them over to Russia when they should have gone to Ukraine.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien

Western media will only tell you what they want you to believe and not what really goes on.

You are really going to stand there and make that argument knowing full well Russian media have been consolidated to Kremlin control.

lol ok.

doesn't change the fact the rebels tampered with the scene and cut the aircraft up.

please explain who is lying... Western media or the OSCE?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Look at the differences in date of the articles, yours comes from 22 July at the height of the Western propaganda machine coming from notorious anti-Putin media, and then look at a more bit independent Dutch news source 5 weeks later, with a link in it to official answers coming from our government.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

and yet the pro Russian rebels tampered with the scene and used chain saws to cut up the aircraft.

So who is lying? western media or the OSCE, which Russia is a member of?

So it might not have been a BUK, but a less sophisticated SAM and also an Ukrainian jetfighter.

US Intel Stands Pat on MH-17 Shoot-down

In January, when I re-contacted the source who had been briefed by the U.S. analysts, the source said their thinking had not changed, except that they believed the missile may have been less sophisticated than a Buk, possibly an SA-6, and that the attack may have also involved a Ukrainian jetfighter firing on MH-17.

Source

a reply to: noeltrotsky

The real question is will that report Link Russia as the cause by giving them the weapon or Russian forces actually operating the Buk launcher themselves inside East Ukraine.

Here is the interesting thing about those BUK's the rebel's had, all of the ones they got from Ukraine weren't operational, so there is only one other place it could be from.

As far as who did the actual shooting...my money is on the separatists as a Russian soldier would have better knowledge as to the way it operated.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

No not an SU-25 as Russia claims.

From the mouth of the designer of the SU-25

RT - Could SU-25 fighter jet down a Boeing? Former pilots speak out on MH17 claims

As the investigation into the MH17 tragedy continues in eastern Ukraine, the SU-25's chief designer has told German media that the fighter jet could not possibly have taken down the passenger plane. RT spoke to former pilots about the jet's capabilities.

Kiev-born Soviet and Russian aircraft designer Vladimir Babak said on Monday that the SU-25 jet – which was spotted tracking the MH17 Boeing at the moment it crashed down – did not have the capability to shoot down a passenger plane. He said the fighter jet could have successfully attacked the Boeing at an altitude of 3,000-4,000 meters, but not at the plane’s altitude of 10,500 meters. He added that air-to-air missiles would have only damaged the Boeing – not completely destroyed it while still in the air.

“I believe all allegations that a SU-25 could be involved into this tragedy are a cover-up attempt,” Babak said in an interview to German channels NDR and WDR. “I cannot explain it otherwise. We cannot understand how an SU-25 could take down the Boeing.”

who is lying? the Western media or the OSCE, which Russia is a member of?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
who is lying? the Western media or the OSCE, which Russia is a member of?

Interesting question...a better one would be, "who isn't?"

I'm going top go out on a very stable limb here...

Everybody is lying. What was supposed to be a pretty easy persuasion of power (from both sides) has blown up into a civil war (family feud) in which neither side has much control.

Neither side wants the truth of their complicity revealed, so they continue to lie about the other side.

Or, as it is commonly referred to: Politics 101.

a reply to: Xcathdra

and yet the pro Russian rebels tampered with the scene and used chain saws to cut up the aircraft.

Here's a good little article discussing that and more...

time.com...