Robust statistics on new scientific tests are dating Shroud of Turin on the time of Christ!

Following up on the travertine aragonite angle most everything leads to information on the Shroud of Turin Blog:

The original article referenced at Wikipedia about the travertine aragonite crystals found on the Shroud seems to originate at: New Evidence May Explain Image on Shroud of Turin. Access to this article requires paying a membership which I am not interested in at this point.

Aside from that more articles referencing "dirt" on the Shroud are to be found at the Shroud of Turin Blog:

More Dirt on the Shroud of Turin

Comment Promoted: Travertine Aragonite Limestone

The actual scientific study comparing the crystals found on the Shroud with travertine aragonite is supposed to be authored by Dr. Ricardo Levi-Setti "Progress in High Resolution Scanning Ion Microscopy and Secondary Ion Mass Spectrometry Imaging Microanalysis;" Scanning Electron Microscopy, Vol. 2, 1985, pp.535-552] Link to Source


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That's a lot of stuff to wade through, I'll admit. Here's my thoughts on a first pass though.

Travertine is very common in Italian building and architecture, in fact, until very recently virtually all the travertine in the world came from Italy.

Travertine aragonite is a more rare version than the more common travertine calcite, but it is not only found in Jerusalem.

In fact, both types of travertine are available in Italy particularly, and are and have been used in construction, particularly of churches, shrines, etc.

The Shroud was kept in ... churches, shrines, etc.

So, I will admit, I'm working around not being able to access the Kohlbeck/Nitowski article or the Levi-Setti technical article directly ... but I find this to be a telling comment from this comment/article:

Dr. Levi-Setti analyzed the calcium from both the Shroud fiber and the Jerusalem tomb with a high-resolution scanning ion microprobe. The resulting graphs show that these samples are an unusually close match, except for minute pieces of flax that could not be separated from the calcium sample taken from the Shroud fiber and that caused a slight organic variation.

Both Dr. Levi-Setti and for that matter Mr. Kohlbeck seem qualified to talk authoritatively about particulate microscopy. However, I do not find any indication that Dr. Levi-Setti did anything but run the analysis on the crystals, and Mr. Kohlbeck and Sister Damian wrote the article for Biblical Archaeology Review ... which is not a peer-reviewed journal.

Apparently, the original samples analyzed in 1978 written about in 1986 have been lost as well, and the Shroud itself was vacuumed in 2002 preservation efforts.

While this is the most interesting correspondence I have yet read in the Shroud material, it doesn't convince me of anything aside from travertine is used in tombs, churches, shrines, et. al.

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OTHER POSSIBLY USEFUL INFO FOR SOMEONE WISHING TO RESEARCH FURTHER:

Author Blurbs From the Biblical Archaeology Society Website

Joseph A. Kohlbeck, a specialist in optical crystallographic techniques, is Resident Scientist at Hercules Aerospace, in Magna, Utah. In his work on such defense weapons as the Polaris, Minuteman, Trident and MX missiles, Kohlbeck has developed a unique optical microscopic and crystallographic laboratory at Hercules.

Eugenia L. Nitowski, now Sister Damian, of the Discalced Carmelite order, has excavated at Tell Hesban in Jordan and has made extensive studies of ancient tombs in Jordan and Israel.

Hercules Aerospace apparently shut down operations in Utah in the mid-1990s: Last Trace of Hercules Aerospace to Disappear

Dr. Riccardo Levi-Setti is noted as Professor Emeritus at the Enrico Fermi Institute Riccardo Levi-Setti

a reply to: Gryphon66

While I also found a lot of what you posted just glossing
over the various sites. I hate pay per view sites.
Great follow up Gryphon.

A further thought:

Nothing in what I've read notes the exact locations of the samples of the travertine aragonite tested, but, traditionally there are only two locations in Jerusalem considered as the "actual" burial locations of Jesus Christ: Church of the Holy Sepulcher and the Garden Tomb

It would seem logical that one of these two sites was the location of the "authentic travertine crystals from Jerusalem" were taken from.

Needless to say, Romans built temples in and around these areas over several centuries. Romans used travertine extensively in buildings across the world.

Another way in which, sans supernatural occurrences, the crystals in Jerusalem could match the crystals on the Shroud.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I'd like to add a further thought as well.
If the Shroud of Turin or the sudarian were fakes or forgeries
from any time before the 20th century. Then 20th century and
even more so, 21st century science, would make an easy time
of proving it. And it would today be put away as a known hoax.

The undeniable fact that this has not happened. And is even
moving in the opposite direction, away from being confirmed
as a hoax by science. Is absolutely scientific evidence that
the Shroud of Turin is the authentic burial cloth of Jesus Christ.
Indeed science has thrown every stone at the shroud and has
proven nothing. I think the shroud does speak volumes for itself.

originally posted by: randyvs
21st century science, would make an easy time
of proving it. And it would today be put away as a known hoax.

It is a known hoax, except some FTB's refuse to accept reality.

The undeniable fact that this has not happened.

Wrong again, you just refuse to accept reality.

. Is absolutely scientific evidence that
the Shroud of Turin is the authentic burial cloth of Jesus Christ.

No, that is not true - if it was a burial cloth how do you know it was JC's?

Indeed science has thrown every stone at the shroud and has
proven nothing.

Apart from it being a hoax you mean! I

think the shroud does speak volumes for itself.

Yes, it shows the gullible will believe anything that they are told.

a reply to: randyvs

I think you're begging the question. Severely. Along with several other logical fallacies like false dilemma, false cause, etc.

This is what you're doing; I think you'll see your error.

If you can't prove that Quality A is NOT what I say it is, that proves that Quality A IS what I say it is.

"21st Century Science" (like any other science) can only say what it knows based on the data reviewed.

It can describe the composition of the Shroud, can date the Shroud based on other standard dated material and dating methods, can examine possible processes involved in the creation of the Shroud (also Sudarian) ... but nothing can PROVE that "this piece of material is the authentic burial shroud of Jesus Christ."

Why? Composition error.

Nothing about either piece of material PROVES that Jesus Christ existed although someone very like the Gospel stories probably did.

Nothing about either piece of material PROVES that Jesus Christ was crucified, wrapped in this piece of cloth under discussion, and then magically left this image when, by some process completely unknown to any science of the 1st, 14th, 20th or 21st Centuries, He was resurrected from death.

You had me until this last bit, Randy.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

It says that humans like a mystery.

Nothing ever, in the entirety of human history, has ever been proven to be supernatural, and if the shroud is real, then it would be the first ever tangible artefact that may suggest that there is something beyond natural processes at work in the universe.

Of course there is interest in such an artefact.

What do you think it says? And who do you think knows more than "they" are saying?

I'll just leave this here (WARNING: Occaisonal artful use of bad language!):

a reply to: puzzlesphere

Bravo.

originally posted by: St Udio

have you ever considered that the Shroud is actually the prophecied Image of the AntiChrist (beast)

No I have not my friend, but that is only because I do not believe in any AntiChrist whatsoever. However, True evil does exist within various human beings right here, right in the present now on planet Earth.

I also respect whatever you, or anyone else believes in here on ATS. I want to also say that I do appreciate your question a lot. I did grow up a Christian Udio, yet I have chosen to move on to a more Cosmic answer to the question about Human origins, as well as our existence. ~$heopleNation

a reply to: Gryphon66


Alright alright, I admit I got a lil excited saying this.

. Is absolutely scientific evidence that
the Shroud of Turin is the authentic burial cloth of Jesus Christ.

But I stand by the rest of it i.e. if it was hoax from an earlier time?
No trickery that far in the past would fail detection by todays science.
So it is absolutely what it appears to be. A man in a shroud whos death
matches the one described in the Bible perfectly.

a reply to: hellobruce

It is a known hoax, except some FTB's refuse to accept reality.

By whom and why?

a reply to: randyvs

You're still drawing conclusions that the facts don't support.

Scientific methods of analysis would not reveal "trickery" per se ... just chemical and biological facts about the cloth.

What you're claiming doesn't fit the Biblical account perfectly. The Bible very clearly says that Jesus' head was wrapped separately.

The image is "wrong" if it were created by being "wrapped around" a body and then exposed to some sort of ... "force" that emanated from the body.

Further:

A Summary of STURP's Conclusions]A Summary of STURP's Conclusions

The basic problem from a scientific point of view is that some explanations which might be tenable from a chemical point of view, are precluded by physics. Contrariwise, certain physical explanations which may be attractive are completely precluded by the chemistry. For an adequate explanation for the image of the Shroud, one must have an explanation which is scientifically sound, from a physical, chemical, biological and medical viewpoint. At the present, this type of solution does not appear to be obtainable by the best efforts of the members of the Shroud Team. Furthermore, experiments in physics and chemistry with old linen have failed to reproduce adequately the phenomenon presented by the Shroud of Turin. The scientific consensus is that the image was produced by something which resulted in oxidation, dehydration and conjugation of the polysaccharide structure of the microfibrils of the linen itself. Such changes can be duplicated in the laboratory by certain chemical and physical processes. A similar type of change in linen can be obtained by sulfuric acid or heat. However, there are no chemical or physical methods known which can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological or medical circumstances explain the image adequately.

Estimates on dating the Shroud do not place its origin in 1st century Jerusalem.

a reply to: The angel of light

Greetings,
I have recently registered with ATS in order to participate with the ATS community beyond observation which I have been doing so-so for over two years.
Something that I had read in the post had disturbed a facet of my present perception of this world.
I am neither a professional nor an enthusiast in any field pertaining to the subject matter within the post.
I have not thoroughly read through all of the replies and apologize if this has been addressed.

It is stated in the third hypothesis.

like Cotton, that we all know is an American plant and so impossible to be available at the time of Christ in the old continent.

Included are four species that have
independently been domesticated for their fiber, two each in Africa–Asia and the Americas.

Also

Data implicate an origin for Gossypium 5–15 million years ago (mya)
and a rapid early diversification of the major genome groups.

-www.fs.fed.us...

In auxilary:

Many photographs were sent to textile experts11. They agreed that there are some cotton fibers in
the sample and that cotton fibers found in R7 are from the “Old World” (possible species: Gossypium
herbaceum or Gossypium arboreum).

-www.shroud.com...

I neither support nor reject any other subject matter in the post or it's replies.

SHroud made of flax not Cotton...same fabric tHat made tHe Priests Robes to go into tHe Holy-of-Holies in tHe Temple

...The one word that describes the goal of CERN is manifestation. The objective at hand according to the scientists is that they are attempting to find the one particle that holds matter together. That particle has the ability to hold spirit and physical (matter together), that particle is what they call the “God” particle. This particle does exist, it is part of the keys that Jesus Christ mentioned in the book of Revelations

[...]

The actual experiment that is going to be taking place on March 23rd 2015 will be the attempt to use it. Which means that they will be trying to take spirit and matter, and collide them. In other words, open a dimension and bring a spirit, then smash it together with a physical form and create a being....

see: freedomfighterreports.com...

I am glad to get info that the 4th Reich scientists at CERN are attempting to create the flash of energy (which left the image-on-the-shroud Artifact) which is going to flash shorter than 40 millionths of a second and a higher frequency than even Gamma Rays...


consider this (my posts) just a side-bar to the discussion of the mundane science attributed to the analysis of the Turin Shroud... which is a 'Future Throwback' Icon which was not created in the past, but exists now in a mysterious fashion... (as another 'key' to Heaven)


CERN (sCientists) is attempting to recreate the instant of transfiguration/resurrection/portal to heaven while we here focus on the details or lack thereof to the physical relic being inspected/scrutinized...
Just tHe stuff I am injecting into tHread, not trolling

a reply to: UnidentifiedForeigner

You mean to tell me that there was no Egyptian Cotton in Egypt in the Olde World! I'm shocked! Thanks for the info and welcome to ATS!

a reply to: St Udio

I don't intend to address the absolute absurdity of the off-topic silliness about CERN ... but I am curious about one item from your post, to wit:

consider this (my posts) just a side-bar to the discussion of the mundane science attributed to the analysis of the Turin Shroud... which is a 'Future Throwback' Icon which was not created in the past, but exists now in a mysterious fashion... (as another 'key' to Heaven)

So, is it your claim that the Shroud of Turin is not a historical object at all, but is instead some sort of ... temporal anomaly existing in "mysterious fashion'?

a reply to: Gryphon66

You're still drawing conclusions that the facts don't support.

That's right, science fails miserably to conclude anything so I
allow myself any conclusion I want.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Gryphon66

You're still drawing conclusions that the facts don't support.

That's right, science fails miserably to conclude anything so I
allow myself any conclusion I want.

As is your ultimate right!

Best,

This really does nothing to bolster the possible existence of a historical Jesus, which is highly in doubt. Work by Acharya S pretty much confirms this.

a reply to: The angel of light

The Peace of God to all that belong to the light,

Dear Readers,

This is my first reply after the weekend, a very intensive one as I can see in what concerns to this thread. I would want to thank for the owerwlhelming number of replies and participants on the discussion.

I am going to try in this reply to cover different points that have caught my attention of what it was replied

I think important part of the discussion right now is too much focused in to deal with some myths around the Shroud

1) That the Shroud is the result of the artist work in Painting. This is something that I have already mentioned but is important to recall there are no traces at all of brush work on the shroud, exhaustive study with microscope has completely proven that the shroud was not made with paintings of any kind, including wet or dry medium.

The Shroud however was in several occasions touched with copies of it, that were along History painted as reproductions by Artists, and that is what explains why although it is not painted or drawn, it certainly contain particles per million of some rare pigments, but no solvent. The reason to touch the copies was to bless them with the supposed miraculous powers of the blood of Jesus, a Holy man from whom there are hundreds if no thousands of wonders performed in life.

Here the work of Isabel Pitzek who devoted years in the study of any possibility of art work on the shroud, until arrive to the conclusion that is not painted or drawn. Notice that her work came in response to the suggestions that were released by The McCrone Research Institute, founded by Walter McCrone, noted microscopist, has been active in Shroud research for many years, in connection with a supposed proof that is painted.

www.shroud.com...

2) it is not acceptable at all to try to attack the authenticity of this relic by arguing that Christ never existed historically. that is not only off topic but after checking deeply anybody can see that perhaps there is nothing more mythological than the idea that Jesus of Nazareth is a myth. We are talking about a figure from whom there exist multitude of civil sources and records of the epoch, including many that come from the Jewish religious authorities that don't have nothing to gain to recognize that he existed, and of course denied that he was divine or the Messiah. To deny the existence of Jesus is no more serious than to deny the Holocaust, is no sense at all.

Here a link commenting the different accounts about Jesus in Talmud and Midrash,

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

3) The shroud does not fall in the category of Hoax, that is an affirmation that was created by irresponsible sensationalist authors that are more in the level if tabloids than of any serious historian of Art or Scientist. Joe Nickell, a Ph.D. in English for graduate work focusing on literary investigation and folklore is who first time claimed that it was a Hoax, and he didn't have any academic credential even to emit a professional concept on the subject. The simple reason for which it is not a hoax is because the Shroud is indeed the burial cloth of a man in between 30 to 40 yrs old, in the moment of the death, that was crucified in the Roman Style. We can't easily claim who is this man, but we are certain that it was a very real person since the cloth is impregnated of all his body fluids: transpiration, serum, blood, bilirubin, pleura.

www.ohioshroudconference.com...


4) it is absolutely true that all the new studies on the Shroud are pointing by overwhelming majority in the direction of authenticity, is such the disparity in between the ones supporting it and the ones that try to debunk it that practically only radio carbon 1988 test remains contradicting it.

This like to have in one dish of the balance 95% of evidences in favor vs 5% of evidences against

www.bizpacreview.com...

www.newgeology.us...

Here the Myth is of course that the carbon radio test never fails, that it is absolutely reliable on dating any kind of organic materials.

answersingenesis.org...

www.varchive.org...


Thanks for your attention,

The Angel of Lightness