If true,then Ukraine's government is getting ready to run

a reply to: Rocker2013

You can whine and b*tch about that all you like, but it's international law and you nor Russia gets to simply ignore it and rewrite reality to excuse the invasion and theft of a chunk of another country.

Now, please stop with this obvious BS that Crimea chose legally to become part of Russia. It is blatantly impossible that this could be the case when Crimea belongs to Ukraine and NOT Russia, regardless of what you or Russia thinks.

No offence, but all the whining and b*tching seems to be coming from you. The Crimeans voted to go back to Russia as they've been trying to do ever since they were given away like a tanning coupon. Live with it.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Apparently Russia has issues with reading comprehension.

JOINT DECLARATION ON UN/NATO SECRETARIATCOOPERATION - PDF LINK

Feel free to point out the lie that was told by the Russian minister reference this treaty -

JOINT DECLARATION ON UN/NATO SECRETARIAT COOPERATION

The Secretary-General of the United Nations and the Secretary General of the North Atlantic Treaty
Organization, welcoming over a decade of cooperation between the United Nations and NATO in support of the work of the United Nations in maintaining international peace and security, and desiring, in the spirit of the 2005 World Summit Outcome, to provide a framework for expanded consultation and cooperation between their respective Secretariats, have agreed to the following:

1. We, the Secretary-General of the United Nations and the Secretary-General of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, reaffirm our commitment to the maintenance ofinternational peace and security.

2. Our shared experiences have demonstrated the value of effective and efficient coordination between our Organizations. We have developed operational cooperation, for example, in peace keeping in the Balkans and Afghanistan, where UN-authorized NATO-
led operations work alongside UN peace operations. We have also worked together and collectively with other partners in support of regional and sub-regional organizations. In addition, NATO provided assets and personnel to Pakistan in support of UN disaster relief operations in 2005. Our cooperation is guided by the UN Charter, internationally recognized humanitarian principles and guidelines, and consultation with national authorities.


3. Further cooperation will significantly contribute to addressing the threats and challenges to which the international community is called upon to respond. We therefore underscore the importance of establishing a framework for consultation and dialogue and
cooperation, including, as appropriate, through regular exchanges and dialogue at senior and working levels on political and operational issues. We also reaffirm our willingness to provide, within our respective mandates and capabilities, assistance to regional and sub-regional organizations, as requested and as appropriate.


4. Understanding that this framework should be flexible and evolving over time, we agree to further develop the cooperation between our organizations on issues of common interest, in,but not limited to, communication and information-sharing, including on issues pertaining to the protection of civilian populations; capacity-building, training and exercises; lessons learned, planning and support for contingencies; and operational coordination and support.

5. Our cooperation will continue to develop in a practical fashion, taking into account each Organizations specific mandate, expertise, procedures and capabilities, so as to contribute to improving international coordination in response to global challenges.

Done in New York on 23 September 2008
Jaap de Hoop Scheffer BAN Ki-Moon
Secretary General of the Secretary-General
North Atlantic Treaty Oranization of the United Nations

no where in this treaty does it come close to what the Russian is accusing it of doing. They are just bitching to bitch.

Emphasis added by me.

originally posted by: Flatcoat
No offence, but all the whining and b*tching seems to be coming from you. The Crimeans voted to go back to Russia as they've been trying to do ever since they were given away like a tanning coupon. Live with it.

The vote was illegal under Ukrainian law and international law and is not recognized.

Live with it.

secondly the topic is the false allegation that the Ukrainian Prime minister obtained a Canadian passport. Still waiting for some evidence that is not linked back to the blog sites. The other issues you and some others have brought up have been debunked ao bringing them up again in this thread wont change that fact.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Well, why don't you go and tell the Crimeans that. I'm sure you'll be warmly welcomed....

a reply to: Xcathdra

No it wont because every party involved is lying through their teeth to support their own position. I am more inclined to believe the separatist position because I think I have a pretty good idea just who instigated this entire travesty. "It only cost us $5 billion to over-through their government. Not an exact quote from good old Victoria but it's close enough.

You claim that we live in a democracy. I say we use to live in a free republic until the Oligarchs and Plutocrats hijacked our government and use it to enrich their wealth at the expense of millions of innocent people just trying to live a normal existence. Every war since the birth of this nation was fomented by these types and they use a gullible patriotic citizenry and tax dollars stolen from these same people to commit their dastardly deeds. You may believe your own propaganda but I don't.

originally posted by: Flatcoat

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: Flatcoat
You keep posting that stupid cartoon as if it's some kind of proof, I've asked you a number of times now...provide some real evidence for being "forced to vote at gunpoint".

You mean, ignoring all the Russian guns, held by Russian soldiers, with their Russian vehicles?

Sure, no guns at all!

Hate to get cliche, but 'pics or it didn't happen'...

There are plenty, you know this.
Go and type "Russians in Ukraine" into Google and stop trying to waste other peoples time with this nonsense.

originally posted by: Flatcoat
No offence,

None taken.

originally posted by: Flatcoatbut all the whining and b*tching seems to be coming from you. The Crimeans voted to go back to Russia as they've been trying to do ever since they were given away like a tanning coupon. Live with it.

Wrong.
Crimea was invaded. This is a reality whether you accept it or not.
The "referendum" was illegal whether you accept it or not.
Russian weapons, troops and vehicles were in Crimea before and during the so-called referendum, whether you accept it or not.

The Crimean "referendum" was a farce, deal with it.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: Flatcoat

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: Flatcoat
You keep posting that stupid cartoon as if it's some kind of proof, I've asked you a number of times now...provide some real evidence for being "forced to vote at gunpoint".

You mean, ignoring all the Russian guns, held by Russian soldiers, with their Russian vehicles?

Sure, no guns at all!

Hate to get cliche, but 'pics or it didn't happen'...

There are plenty, you know this.
Go and type "Russians in Ukraine" into Google and stop trying to waste other peoples time with this nonsense.

We were talking about armed Russians during the Crimean referendum.....so 'pics or it didn't happen' is still a valid request.

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: Xcathdra

Well, why don't you go and tell the Crimeans that. I'm sure you'll be warmly welcomed....

Shame we can't do that.
Shame international observers were turned away by the Russian forces occupying it.
Shame the Russian forces still there have driven thousands of people out of Crimea, shut down the entire tourism industry of Crimea, turned it into nothing but a Russian military base on stolen land with a nothing but a small population of elderly Ukrainians who can't afford to flee for a better life in West Ukraine.

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: Xcathdra

Well, why don't you go and tell the Crimeans that. I'm sure you'll be warmly welcomed....

I would most likely be shot and killed... Just like those who spoke out against Russian occupation.
Hows the forced relocation of the Tartars going so far?

a reply to: CharlesT

The separatists are Russian and their leaders were / are Russian military / Special forces.

originally posted by: Flatcoat

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: Flatcoat

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: Flatcoat
You keep posting that stupid cartoon as if it's some kind of proof, I've asked you a number of times now...provide some real evidence for being "forced to vote at gunpoint".

You mean, ignoring all the Russian guns, held by Russian soldiers, with their Russian vehicles?

Sure, no guns at all!

Hate to get cliche, but 'pics or it didn't happen'...

There are plenty, you know this.
Go and type "Russians in Ukraine" into Google and stop trying to waste other peoples time with this nonsense.

We were talking about armed Russians during the Crimean referendum.....so 'pics or it didn't happen' is still a valid request.

No, it's really not.

Denying reality is not a rational position to take.

a reply to: Flatcoat

Good god this has been answered time and again...

right from putins OWN mouth -

RT - Putin acknowledges Russian military serviceman were in Crimea

Russian President Vladimir Putin has acknowledged that Russian troops were present in Crimea before the referendum and argued that was necessary to let Crimeans make the choice on the future of the region.

The armed men in military uniform without insignia, dubbed “the little green men” or “the polite people,” who were present in Crimea before and during the referendum there, were Russian troops, Vladimir Putin acknowledged speaking at a Q&A session with on Thursday. The president said he never concealed the fact from his foreign counterparts, and explained to them that it was the only way to ensure the referendum on the region’s status would be carried out peacefully.

“Crimean self-defense forces were of course backed by Russian servicemen,” Putin said. “They acted very appropriately, but as I’ve already said decisively and professionally.”

Putin had to touch upon the Crimea topic multiple times throughout his Q&A session. He emphasized that Russia did not acquire Crimea by force, but created, with the help of its special forces, conditions for Crimeans to decide upon their own future.

Emphasis added by me.

He invaded Crimea with Russian forces and then forced a referendum with a rigged outcome.

* - ATS - UN general assembly calls Crimea vote illegal
ATS - Putin's Hmn Rghts Cncil Accidentally Posts Real Crimean Election Results; Only 15% Voted For Annexation

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: Flatcoat
No offence,

None taken.

originally posted by: Flatcoatbut all the whining and b*tching seems to be coming from you. The Crimeans voted to go back to Russia as they've been trying to do ever since they were given away like a tanning coupon. Live with it.

Wrong.
Crimea was invaded. This is a reality whether you accept it or not.
The "referendum" was illegal whether you accept it or not.
Russian weapons, troops and vehicles were in Crimea before and during the so-called referendum, whether you accept it or not.

The Crimean "referendum" was a farce, deal with it.

The Crimean parliament asked the already present Russian forces to intervene. That's not an invasion. And they did so without firing a shot. The Crimeans are as happy as Larry, and no-one had to die. Anyway, I don't know why you're arguing with me about this. As I said to the other bloke, jump on a plane, go over to Crimea and tell them what you think. I'm sure your views will be widely accepted....

a reply to: Flatcoat

they did no such thing...

the Crimean parliament was stormed by armed troops and held while one of the rebel leaders appointed himself the head of Crimea.


Secondly it occurred PRIOR to ANY illegal vote taking place. Russia invaded Ukraine and illegally occupied Crimea and not amount of temper tantrum will change that fact.

Gunmen seize government buildings in Ukraine's Crimea, raise Russian flag

Concerns are building that the tensions in the autonomous Crimean region might escalate into a bid for separation by its Russian majority.

Pro-Russian members of the Crimean parliament dismissed the government of Crimean Premier Anatolii Mohyliov in a vote of no confidence Thursday, his spokesman Andrey Demartino told CNN. He said Mohyliov would respect the parliament's decision, despite many procedural irregularities.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Flatcoat

Good god this has been answered time and again...

right from putins OWN mouth -

RT - Putin acknowledges Russian military serviceman were in Crimea

Russian President Vladimir Putin has acknowledged that Russian troops were present in Crimea before the referendum and argued that was necessary to let Crimeans make the choice on the future of the region.

The armed men in military uniform without insignia, dubbed “the little green men” or “the polite people,” who were present in Crimea before and during the referendum there, were Russian troops, Vladimir Putin acknowledged speaking at a Q&A session with on Thursday. The president said he never concealed the fact from his foreign counterparts, and explained to them that it was the only way to ensure the referendum on the region’s status would be carried out peacefully.

“Crimean self-defense forces were of course backed by Russian servicemen,” Putin said. “They acted very appropriately, but as I’ve already said decisively and professionally.”

Putin had to touch upon the Crimea topic multiple times throughout his Q&A session. He emphasized that Russia did not acquire Crimea by force, but created, with the help of its special forces, conditions for Crimeans to decide upon their own future.

Emphasis added by me.

He invaded Crimea with Russian forces and then forced a referendum with a rigged outcome.

* - ATS - UN general assembly calls Crimea vote illegal
ATS - Putin's Hmn Rghts Cncil Accidentally Posts Real Crimean Election Results; Only 15% Voted For Annexation

There is just one statistic I would ask you to produce. Just how many innocent civilians were killed during this so called Russian invasion? Please tell us all, how many?

a reply to: CharlesT

So far the death toll is up to almost 6k with another 1.8 million displaced. As soon as Russia withdraws its occupation forces from Ukraine and peace comes back we can get a better idea of the counts.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: Xcathdra

Well, why don't you go and tell the Crimeans that. I'm sure you'll be warmly welcomed....

Shame we can't do that.
Shame international observers were turned away by the Russian forces occupying it.
Shame the Russian forces still there have driven thousands of people out of Crimea, shut down the entire tourism industry of Crimea, turned it into nothing but a Russian military base on stolen land with a nothing but a small population of elderly Ukrainians who can't afford to flee for a better life in West Ukraine.

Hmmm, really? I've seen plenty of videos of people who've gone to Crimea after the referendum to see for themselves and surprise, surprise, it's nothing at all like you've just described. I just wish for once you'd back up these claims with some sort of proof..

originally posted by: Flatcoat
I just wish for once you'd back up these claims with some sort of proof..

Ditto


Now that we have once again debunked a range of issues you guys have consistently brought up and failed to support can we get back to the topic?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: CharlesT

So far the death toll is up to almost 6k with another 1.8 million displaced. As soon as Russia withdraws its occupation forces from Ukraine and peace comes back we can get a better idea of the counts.

6k dead and another 1.8 million displaced in Crimea??? Now you're really gonna have to provide some evidence...