North Korea Is A Liberal Utopia

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: Gryphon66

That is the question of the decade isn't it? However, it may not be the correct question.

I think the question that should be asked is "How did America get to this point, and what must change to restore the POWER of choice, and not just the illusion of same?"

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

IMO - money based corporations now run American politics.

And --- what is fundamental organized religion anyway? It is Power, Control, Money.

The Southen Baptists are, in part, descendants of the original Puritans. If you've read up on the original Puritans -- they weren't persecuted for their religious beliefs. They tried to politically force England into a theocracy.

And NO -- that is not attacking Christians. That is attacking the "machine" of Power, Control, Money.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Therefore, our opinions are so far apart as to be irreconcilable, and in that case we should ignore each other. Although I think you will disagree with this, as you have a visceral idea that you must disagree with anything a conservative says.

Oh, by all means - you should ignore what people who hold Progressive values SAY they think and SAY they want, and simply continue posting nonsense.

You obviously don't have the slightest understanding of what "visceral idea" I have (or any Progressive has) - yet you feel you have the right to to tell us what we think.

You are wrong. Pray on it. Hey - weren't you the one saying you would get Bible Man action figures and books and videos for your grandkids?
How did they like them??

You make me tired. I'm glad that I CAN ignore you most of the time - but when you post lies and pure ignorance, it is my duty to inform you. To "correct" you.
Pray on that one, too, hey?

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
The polarization of the U.S. recently has made me sick to my stomach.

It happened to Rome, it's happening to us. It's part of the lifecycle of empire. Especially an empire deliberately patterned after Rome.

👣

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

Therefore, our opinions are so far apart as to be irreconcilable, and in that case we should ignore each other. Although I think you will disagree with this, as you have a visceral idea that you must disagree with anything a conservative says.

Oh, by all means - you should ignore what people who hold Progressive values SAY they think and SAY they want, and simply continue posting nonsense.

You obviously don't have the slightest understanding of what "visceral idea" I have (or any Progressive has) - yet you feel you have the right to to tell us what we think.

You are wrong. Pray on it. Hey - weren't you the one saying you would get Bible Man action figures and books and videos for your grandkids?
How did they like them??

You make me tired. I'm glad that I CAN ignore you most of the time - but when you post lies and pure ignorance, it is my duty to inform you. To "correct" you.
Pray on that one, too, hey?

You are confusing me with someone else, Bible Action figures? No I never bought them for my grandkids. Videos, well if Veggie Tales count, then I have purchased those for my grandkids, you object to those? Veggie Tales ran for a while on a non-religious channel.

vis·cer·al
ˈvis(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: visceral

of or relating to the viscera.
"the visceral nervous system"
relating to deep inward feelings rather than to the intellect.
"the voters' visceral fear of change"


As in my statement that Progressives have a visceral loathing for Christians and Jews as expressed in their actions and their words. Reference: your statement regarding children's action figures, I assume you don't disdain action figures in general just ones based on bible characters. I assume you do not dislike children's video's in general, just christian videos made specifically for children. Reference: the progressive support for the firing of a teacher who simply had a bible in her classroom and never read it to the children or talked about it with the children, she was fired for simply having it. Reference: Progressive support for running out of business florists and bakers who do not want to be forced to do something they feel is against their value system, even though the community has an abundance of florists and bakers who would be happy to accommodate the same requests.

Weren't you one of the people who say:
All christians hate gays (absolutely false, every christian I know does not hate gays, and the vast majority of christians that I personally know have nothing against gay marriage)
All christians are against abortion (false again, I personally am only against it after the fetus becomes a baby and can live on its own outside the womb, before that, well there are plenty of good reasons)
and I could go on and on.

a reply to: beezzer

Funny thing about the President and the Constitution, every President has the power to go full blown dictator. That the Congress has relented many powers and duties over the years makes it even easier for a sitting President to do so.

originally posted by: Ahabstar
a reply to: beezzer

Funny thing about the President and the Constitution, every President has the power to go full blown dictator. That the Congress has relented many powers and duties over the years makes it even easier for a sitting President to do so.

And even way back then, the founders had a solution for that written into the Bill of Rights.

a reply to: Metallicus

I thought you would be above bi-partisan bashing, I guess you're just as ignorant as others on your "side".

originally posted by: beezzer
And even way back then, the founders had a solution for that written into the Bill of Rights.

There is nothing in the Bill of Rights that guarantees anything if the people don't stand behind it.

Do you think freedom fighters ask permission to arm themselves?

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: beezzer
And even way back then, the founders had a solution for that written into the Bill of Rights.

There is nothing in the Bill of Rights that guarantees anything if the people don't stand behind it.

Do you think freedom fighters ask permission to arm themselves?

Point taken and well made.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Weren't you one of the people who say:
All christians hate gays (absolutely false, every christian I know does not hate gays, and the vast majority of christians that I personally know have nothing against gay marriage)
All christians are against abortion (false again, I personally am only against it after the fetus becomes a baby and can live on its own outside the womb, before that, well there are plenty of good reasons)
and I could go on and on.

Nope!

Wrong again!

I'm "one of the people who say" that right-wing Bible-thumpers are trying like hell to take over this country. That this is not, and never has been, a "Christian country" - and that Progressive ideology is exactly what the Founding Fathers had in mind to begin with.

It all began with the Age of Enlightenment. Then it resurfaced under Roosevelt. It is, and has ALWAYS been, about preserving the values specifically explained below:

It steadfastly stands against
militarism,
the concentration of power in corporate hands,
and the disenfranchisement of the citizenry.

It champions
peace,
social and economic justice,
civil rights,
civil liberties,
human rights,
a preserved environment,
and a reinvigorated democracy.

Its bedrock values are nonviolence and freedom of speech. - See more at: www.progressive.org...

Are there any words in that list that you do not understand? I'd be happy to provide you with definitions so that you can change your 'visceral' hatred of us.
Are there ANY IDEAS in that list that you DISAGREE WITH? Ma'am?



Oh, and by the way, I am perfectly fine with your explanation of how the MAJORITY of Christians feel about gays and abortion. That is exactly how Progressives feel, too! Imagine!!

a reply to: Gryphon66

Yeah, find me a classic liberal and not a hypocritical leftist and we can discuss things all day....considering the fact that classic liberals and conservatives both really want the betterment of their fellow human beings at heart, and only differ in how to achieve that.

But, alas, classic liberalism is stone cold dead, hijacked by these weird intolerant and hypocritical leftists that hide behind the label.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

Weren't you one of the people who say:
All christians hate gays (absolutely false, every christian I know does not hate gays, and the vast majority of christians that I personally know have nothing against gay marriage)
All christians are against abortion (false again, I personally am only against it after the fetus becomes a baby and can live on its own outside the womb, before that, well there are plenty of good reasons)
and I could go on and on.

Nope!

Wrong again!

I'm "one of the people who say" that right-wing Bible-thumpers are trying like hell to take over this country. That this is not, and never has been, a "Christian country" - and that Progressive ideology is exactly what the Founding Fathers had in mind to begin with.

It all began with the Age of Enlightenment. Then it resurfaced under Roosevelt. It is, and has ALWAYS been, about preserving the values specifically explained below:

It steadfastly stands against
militarism,
the concentration of power in corporate hands,
and the disenfranchisement of the citizenry.

It champions
peace,
social and economic justice,
civil rights,
civil liberties,
human rights,
a preserved environment,
and a reinvigorated democracy.

Its bedrock values are nonviolence and freedom of speech. - See more at: www.progressive.org...

Are there any words in that list that you do not understand? I'd be happy to provide you with definitions so that you can change your 'visceral' hatred of us.
Are there ANY IDEAS in that list that you DISAGREE WITH? Ma'am?


Oh, and by the way, I am perfectly fine with your explanation of how the MAJORITY of Christians feel about gays and abortion. That is exactly how Progressives feel, too! Imagine!!

Gotta say your visceral hatred and loathing for Christians is glaring.
You say you are representative of the Progressive view.

So tolerance and understanding for Christians is verboten in the Progressive mindset?

Your statements, both here and on other threads,
(You claim you are representative of the Progressive view)
are filled with deep deep hatred, loathing and I could go on and on
regarding Christians and if
modern progressive rhetoric regarding Jews and Isreal is an indication
the Progressive view
is filled with deep deep hatred, loathing, etc for the Jewish people too.

At least that what your verbiage demonstrates quite clearly.

Totalitarian states like North Korea also hold the very same visceral hatred and loathing for Christians and Jews,
something you have in common.

peace, I don't agree with the President sending more troops to the Middle East to fight a thousands of years old fight which is none of our business, yes I stand for peace, I a very angry that the President failed to live up to his promise of withdrawing all troops from the middle east

social and economic justice, I don't agree with forcing the middle class to support the poor while the rich are through current law exempted from taxes, our current tax system is highly biased and encourages poverty in the middle class; I am for abolishing income taxes entirely, for a national sales tax (where the poor can apply at the end of the year for a "refund" based on income and family size. I disagree with social justice that punishes some groups for being "hateful" and gives passes to people like Farakkahn and Obama's old pastor, who he once claimed to love so dearly.


civil rights; I am all for civil rights, including the right for Christians not to be forced to lose businesses because the don't want to perform actions that are against their value system


civil liberties, I am for civil liberties when they apply equally to all and not just to select "protected" groups, with some groups exempted because they have it too good in American society

human rights, I am for human rights when they are enforced equally across the board and do not force people to "not speak" certain words that are actually an attempt at thought control


a preserved environment, I am all for clean air, water, etc. I am against forcing people to believe in Global Warming, with liberal politicians suggesting jail for those who don't believe in it. Belief in Global Warming is NOT the same thing as believing in preserving the environment. I am also for the Keystone pipeline, as the pipelines in Alaska have actually proven beneficial to many animals providing safe and warm places for breeding, and has in no way harmed the environment in the long term

and a reinvigorated democracy; I believe strongly in democracy; I find Obama's overreach in executive orders to be an anathema to democracy, especially his most recent idea to tax without representation as is a core part of the constitution. I believe that allowing Black Panthers to stand around hitting billy clubs in their hands at polling stations to be against everything democracy stands for and is the worst form of voter intimidation we have seen in the past few decades.

You will probably disagree with my definitions of of the items you listed, that is your right.

I see the things I listed as what the words do not mean
to be representative of totalitarianism and fascism
in the name of progressive ideals.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

Weren't you one of the people who say:
All christians hate gays (absolutely false, every christian I know does not hate gays, and the vast majority of christians that I personally know have nothing against gay marriage)
All christians are against abortion (false again, I personally am only against it after the fetus becomes a baby and can live on its own outside the womb, before that, well there are plenty of good reasons)
and I could go on and on.

Nope!

Wrong again!

I'm "one of the people who say" that right-wing Bible-thumpers are trying like hell to take over this country. That this is not, and never has been, a "Christian country" - and that Progressive ideology is exactly what the Founding Fathers had in mind to begin with.

It all began with the Age of Enlightenment. Then it resurfaced under Roosevelt. It is, and has ALWAYS been, about preserving the values specifically explained below:

It steadfastly stands against
militarism,
the concentration of power in corporate hands,
and the disenfranchisement of the citizenry.

It champions
peace,
social and economic justice,
civil rights,
civil liberties,
human rights,
a preserved environment,
and a reinvigorated democracy.

Its bedrock values are nonviolence and freedom of speech. - See more at: www.progressive.org...

Are there any words in that list that you do not understand? I'd be happy to provide you with definitions so that you can change your 'visceral' hatred of us.
Are there ANY IDEAS in that list that you DISAGREE WITH? Ma'am?


Oh, and by the way, I am perfectly fine with your explanation of how the MAJORITY of Christians feel about gays and abortion. That is exactly how Progressives feel, too! Imagine!!

Gotta say your visceral hatred and loathing for Christians is glaring.
You say you are representative of the Progressive view.

So tolerance and understanding for Christians is verboten in the Progressive mindset?

Your statements, both here and on other threads,
(You claim you are representative of the Progressive view)
are filled with deep deep hatred, loathing and I could go on and on
regarding Christians and if
modern progressive rhetoric regarding Jews and Isreal is an indication
the Progressive view
is filled with deep deep hatred, loathing, etc for the Jewish people too.

At least that what your verbiage demonstrates quite clearly.

Totalitarian states like North Korea also hold the very same visceral hatred and loathing for Christians and Jews,
something you have in common.

peace,
I don't agree with the President sending more troops to the Middle East
to fight a thousands of years old fight which is none of our business,
yes I stand for peace,
I am very angry that the President failed to live up to his promise of withdrawing all troops from the middle east

social and economic justice,
I believe in the concept if applied in a color blind, religion blind, and equal way.
I don't agree with forcing the middle class to support the poor while the rich
are through current law exempted from taxes,
our current tax system is highly biased and encourages poverty in the middle class;
I am for abolishing income taxes entirely, for a national sales tax
(where the poor can apply at the end of the year for a "refund" based on income and family size).
I disagree with social justice that punishes some groups for being "hateful"
and gives passes to people like Farakkahn and Obama's old pastor, who he once claimed to love so dearly.


civil rights; I am all for civil rights,
including the right for Christians not to be forced to lose businesses
because the don't want to perform actions that are against their value system


civil liberties, I am for civil liberties
when they apply equally to all
and not just to select "protected" groups,
with some groups exempted because they have it too good in American society.
I am also strongly opposed to controlling people's daily lives, what they eat, what they think,
what they say in emails or on the phone by the federal government, which under Obama
has expanded exponentially
Including a suggestion to monitor citizens using smart TV's, to make sure they
are more active for their health, which is just an excuse for total surveillance
(see the thread regarding this idea, put forth by the Obama administration)

human rights,
I am for human rights when they are enforced equally across the board
and do not force people to "not speak" certain words
that are actually an attempt at thought control


a preserved environment, I am all for clean air, water, etc.
I am against forcing people to believe in Global Warming,
with liberal politicians suggesting jail for those who don't believe in it.
Belief in Global Warming is NOT
the same thing as believing in preserving the environment.
I am also for the Keystone pipeline,
as the pipelines in Alaska have actually proven beneficial
to many animals providing safe and warm places for breeding,
and has in no way harmed the environment in the long term

and a reinvigorated democracy;
I believe strongly in democracy;
I find Obama's overreach in executive orders to be an anathema to democracy,
especially his most recent idea to tax without representation
as is a core part of the constitution.
I believe that allowing Black Panthers
to stand around hitting billy clubs in their hands at polling stations
to be against everything democracy stands for
and is the worst form of voter intimidation we have seen in the past few decades.

I'll even add one you haven't mentioned,
an end to the drug war.
It is my opinion that ALL drugs should be
legal and accessible to all Americans
without restriction
including prescription drugs.

You will probably disagree with my definitions of of the items you listed, that is your right.

I see the things I listed as what the words do not mean
to be representative of totalitarianism and fascism
in the name of progressive ideals.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
So tolerance and understanding for Christians is verboten in the Progressive mindset? ...
You will probably disagree with my definitions of of the items you listed, that is your right.

Way to twist words into a strawman.

Also, those are not definitions.

a reply to: beezzer

We wouldn't have guns, white males probably wouldn't be able to get jobs in a lot of places, self-defense against minorities would be a hate crime or would just flat out be a crime, the middle class would be paying out the nose for reparations for slavery, any accusation of racism at all would lead to you immediately being removed from a job if you're white with no real chance to defend yourself.

a reply to: beezzer

And that way is only valid if and only if you accept the Preamble as a valid part of Constitutional law. Far too many elected and appointed officials claim that it is not because they would have to acknowledge that We the People are the final check and balance with authority over all three branches and beholden to none.

originally posted by: Ahabstar
a reply to: beezzer



And that way is only valid if and only if you accept the Preamble as a valid part of Constitutional law. Far too many elected and appointed officials claim that it is not because they would have to acknowledge that We the People are the final check and balance with authority over all three branches and beholden to none.

They can acknowledge it or not.

I personally don't care.



The Constitution wasn't written for them, it was written for us.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: Gryphon66

That is the question of the decade isn't it? However, it may not be the correct question.

I think the question that should be asked is "How did America get to this point, and what must change to restore the POWER of choice, and not just the illusion of same?"

I AGREE with you, except for one point, and I may be reading into what you said ...

How did America get to this point? Well, it's natural. Humans break off into groups, and our entire identities become absorbed within the group AT THE SAME TIME that we all function independently, and WANT to do our own thing and be our own person.

All of us are caught somewhere on that spectrum. Somewhere between ME-US-THEM.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about: specialty shops for Goth clothing and accessories.

The Goth movement started with individuals who put a "mark of difference" on themselves (and the same was true for Punk about 10 years earlier) out of their own innate creativity and feelings of "difference." Then, others started following what those folks did until it became a recognizable "movement" ... and then ... fast forward ... you have a Hot Topic in every mall, and kids are ostracizing the other kids who aren't "Goth" enough.

Now write that same thing large across religions, countries, etc.

There's no one to "blame" but each of us, ourselves. We work hard to discover our individuality, and then we look for others "like" us, and then we lose our hard-won individuality in the collection of those "others."

And the funny-not-funny thing is ... some of the ones who are the most imbedded in group consciousnesses are the ones who claim to be the most "free."

The only answer is for each of us to keep working as hard as possible to understand our own meaning in life, and keep working for a system that creates the greatest freedom and base for productivity for EVERYONE.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

As you can see, the best that can be done most of the time is to counter the dishonesty that is continually pumped into the public arena.

Because it's intransigent, stubborn, ignorant and unrelenting in its promulgation.

And what is "IT" there?

Belief.

Belief over facts. Belief over evidence. Belief over what is easily observable in the real world.

Grandma's right and wrong, in a way. I do despise belief-based concepts when there are perfectly reasonable and functional rational concepts to hold in their place. I hate the aspects of human religions that ignore reality and focus on fantasy. I hate the qualities of people (not the people) who try to enforce and legislate those fantasies on their fellow human beings.

If you notice, the anti-Christian and un-American spiel get misused just as often as does any misapplication of homophobe, sexist or racist.

And why do I hate belief? Because belief is the essential quality of extremism, and extremism is the source of every human conflict, argument and misunderstanding.

There are examples here of extremism. An extremist cannot accept or listen to anything counter to their own world-view PARTICULARLY if you present clear and unrelenting EVIDENCE that the belief doesn't match up with reality.

They will first tell you that you are wrong. Then that you are lying. Then that you are crazy. Then they will request that you ignore them while they do anything but ignore you.

Watch for that cycle.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Gotta say your visceral hatred and loathing for Christians is glaring.
You say you are representative of the Progressive view.

So tolerance and understanding for Christians is verboten in the Progressive mindset?

No, it's NOT!

Where the HELL did you get that?

I don't have loathing for ANYONE who is not trying to indoctrinate little kids into being part of ANY religion.

Okay - you know what? You were right. It's best if I ignore you.
"Glaring" visceral hatred and loathing?

What the hell?????

ugh. Like I said - pray on that one. I've told you what I stand for, I wasn't lying. If you don't like it, well, tough. It doesn't make you right. It just makes you look like a hysterical right-winger who refuses to do independent research into what you are attacking. I was brought up as a Christian - I know plenty of very fine Christians.

As for the rest of your post, it seems to me we agree on nearly ALL of the points - except for "Global Warming" (which is REAL), and religious beliefs being translated into business (which is real), and that the middle class needs to be squeezed even further (there's nothing left to squeeze - the RICH need to pay their fair share and stop off-shoring JOBS as well as WEALTH).

(Oh - hey, you got a llttle bit of stinky foam still stuck on the corner of your mouth there. Check a mirror.)