Question to those who say being gay is a choice?

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa....


Boy, some Latin sure does leave a nasty taste in one's mouth, don't it?

You know, the states of the old Confederacy never learn. And let's face it, these states took control of the Democratic party for almost 100 years, and kept racial equality from being a reality, then switched to the Republicans when the Democrats helped pass the Civil Rights Acts of 64 and 68 ... and now they're still trying to find ways to exclude racial minorities from voting.

So, since the Dixiecrats have now adopted the anti-gay crusade, we're sadly in for a long haul. Georgia is about to pass similar legislation to MS.

And since we're probably due for about 4-8 years of a Republican President (although I shudder to think who and how) we can probably depend on the Federal government looking the other way while State Legislatures pull these little shenanigans.

For the first time in my life, I've started seriously considering leaving my home of 49 years (Georgia) and moving on to a State that wants "me and my kind."

Then I get POed and decide the jack-booted thugs wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross can come and get me if they really want me.

I ain't leavin. It's my State too.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Hold the line, Stay the course, Keep it all together.

(Sarah McLaughlin lyrics).

But wow - I admire you sticking it out until now. I'm in Kansas, and our New Apostolic Reformation/Seven-Mountain Dominionist governor (who was just reelected! gah!!!!) is driving people away in droves.

I will leave as soon as possible - have family ties here for now - but wish I'd never left Colorado when I managed to escape in '82.....and returned in 1986 due to family ties. Now, my kids don't live here anymore - and those ties are weakening.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Yah, this will be me I guess ...



I'm not going anywhere.

Does this man sound like he chose to be gay? And guess what, he's in Mississippi.

Gay Author and Former Right-Wing Activist on Life as an Odd Man Out

Once a lawyer for the antigay American Family Association, Joe Murray is now an out, married gay man. He shares his story in his book Odd Man Out.

www.advocate.com...

edit on 8-3-2015 by Annee because: (no reason given)

a reply to: Gryphon66

Yes. What these southern Bible Belt states are doing, is trying to make state laws to counter act a Federal Marriage act. They know they've lost the Marriage Equality war, so now they're being creative with discrimination laws and religious protection laws.

Like Arkansas SB202. It's the "anti-anti" discrimination law. Something like it makes it illegal for any business to support LGBT equality.

Everything you need to know about the gay discrimination wars in 2015 : www.washingtonpost.com...

Also, good source of info: The Human Rights Campaign: www.hrc.org...

originally posted by: Gryphon66

Then I get POed and decide the jack-booted thugs wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross can come and get me if they really want me.

I ain't leavin. It's my State too.

Thank the stars and US Navy for stationing my dad at the Oakland, CA naval yard.

And my parents for never returning to Ohio.

I feel this way, and I'm a straight white female.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Bone75

In Mississippi?

I was mistaken. Apparently that was just a rumor going around that I never did look into myself. It most likely stemmed from THIS article.

I would like to point out...

"Brown said the couple has not experienced negative reactions from people in the community."

My community by the way.

I'm bi. It's in my DNA.

I grew up in 80's rural Maine, where racism was ok and gays/lesbian were complete pariahs of the community. I always had some niggling idea that I was different somehow. When I was 14, a friend approached me, weeping, and as I consoled her she said "I have to tell you something. No one else knows. I'm bisexual - I like both boys and girls."
I replied "It's ok. I think I'm the same way actually..." Then she started to sob and I hugged her, but in the meantime my brain was explooooding. I didn't know that bisexuality was a thing, and when she told me about it I absolutely knew what I was born as - everything suddenly made sense.

By then I had kissed my fair share of girls and boys. I was torn up inside and felt like I had to pick one gender and stick with it, but with the new word I'd learned who I was, not made a choice.

However when I was married to my wife, I did refer to myself as a lesbian since I wasn't planning to have sex with anyone else. Bisexuality does not in any way relate to promiscuity or unfaithfulness. We're just like everyone else.

Sexual preference is built into our bodies. Some people go through a stage of questioning themselves, but ultimately it is not a choice. Some choose to attempt conversion to heterosexuality, but these people are often extremely depressed.

a reply to: Bone75

Tell that to Lucid Lunacy.

Them being alive has no bearing on my points. What they wrote survived. It's those sources the US Supreme Court utilize when they determined gay marriage bans unconstitutional, or anti-sodomy laws unconstitutional. What part of this is escaping you?

originally posted by: FireflyStars

For the most part, sexuality is something inherent to us all

Yeah, it's just natural.

Those who have to make it an issue ---- that its a choice ---- I don't get them.

Why is it so important to them that it "has" to be a choice?

a reply to: Annee

It is normally from Christians right?.
Well If it isn't a choice it means god made them that way and then it can't be a sin.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: Bone75

Tell that to Lucid Lunacy.

Them being alive has no bearing on my points. What they wrote survived. It's those sources the US Supreme Court utilize when they determined gay marriage bans unconstitutional, or anti-sodomy laws unconstitutional. What part of this is escaping you?

I understood what you meant.

The constitution does not have to change to accommodate. It's already written.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Annee

It is normally from Christians right?.
Well If it isn't a choice it means god made them that way and then it can't be a sin.

Mostly.

Like ignorant superstitions ---- many people still believe.

Thomas Jefferson fought to alter the punishment for Sodomy in Virginia from death to castration. He lost. Opinions vary as to whether this was intended as a kindness or not.

Thomas Jefferson A Bill for Proportioning Crimes and Punishments

His argument was basically, to make the punishment fit the crime, both in nature and in severity.

However, at the time, there was no understanding in British culture of "homosexuality" or "sexual orientation."

However, in his notes on the legal efforts he was making, here was his thinking and reasoning:

Co. 37. says 'note that Sodomy is with mankind.' But Finch's L.B.3. c.24. "Sodomitry is a carnal copulation against nature, to wit, of man or woman in the same sex, or of either of them with beasts.' 12 Co. 36 says, It appears by the ancient authorities of the law that this was felony.' Yet the 25 H. S. declares it felony, as if supposed not to be so. Britton, c, 9. says that Sodomites are to be burnt. F. N. B. 269. b Fleta, L 1. c. 37. says 'Pecorantes et Sodomae in terra vivi confodiantur.' The Mirror makes it treason. Bestiality can never make any progress; it cannot therefore be injurious to society in any great degree, which is the true measure of criminality in foro civili, and will ever be properly and severely punished by universal derision. It may, therefore, be omitted.

Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies from the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Vol. 1

Now, this tells us two things about Jefferson: basing opinions on established fact (and law) was very important to him. Even so, his new law recommended mutilation as a punishment rather than death by burning, hanging, etc.

For someone as careful and even-minded as Jefferson, this makes it clear that to him, the crime of Sodomy was of a lesser degree than felony or capital crime.

He left out any reference to Bestiality in his proposed law for Virginia ... and most importantly, he tells us his reasoning for doing so (Bestiality was also a Capital crime at the time):

Bestiality can never make any progress; it cannot therefore be injurious to society in any great degree, which is the true measure of criminality in foro civili, and will ever be properly and severely punished by universal derision. It may, therefore, be omitted.

In foro civili means in the "jurisdiction of civil laws" or in other words ...

That which is injurious to society is the measure of criminality in the jurisdiction (or court) of civil laws.

This is a key to understanding. Jefferson decided that bestiality was not harmful to society (only comedic) and thus did not merit inclusion in his reformed law for Virginia.

He also recommended a much lesser penalty for Sodomy than was traditional (mutilation rather than being burned at the stake).

Over time, society has realized that homosexual attraction, love, bonding and marriage are not harmful to the greater whole in any way. Thus, under the same legal concept that homosexuality was "not injurious to society" it was first decriminalized and, very slowly in many cases, gay people were recognized for the first time as full citizens due all rights of citizenship.

a reply to: Annee

“Unwillingness to stem the tide of illegal immigration is resulting in a change of America’s demography. In just a matter of decades, those who trace their ancestry back to Europe will be outnumbered by those who trace their ancestry to third world nations in Central America, South America, Asia, and Africa. These newcomers, especially the Hispanics, are not assimilating and have made it clear they have no intention to. … America is facing a hostile takeover and the ties that bind are being unwound.”

Wow. He said this???
Are not assimilating? And have no intention to?????

This rant by this guy is absolute crap - I don't care how pink his wardrobe is, or how limp his wrist. The people whose ancestors did NOT come from Europe WERE HERE FIRST, and were treated abysmally.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Annee

“Unwillingness to stem the tide of illegal immigration is resulting in a change of America’s demography. In just a matter of decades, those who trace their ancestry back to Europe will be outnumbered by those who trace their ancestry to third world nations in Central America, South America, Asia, and Africa. These newcomers, especially the Hispanics, are not assimilating and have made it clear they have no intention to. … America is facing a hostile takeover and the ties that bind are being unwound.”

Wow. He said this???
Are not assimilating? And have no intention to?????

This rant by this guy is absolute crap - I don't care how pink his wardrobe is, or how limp his wrist. The people whose ancestors did NOT come from Europe WERE HERE FIRST, and were treated abysmally.

Oh, I don't know that he's so wrong in that assessment.

It's his superior white guy attitude that annoys me. Assimilate?

a reply to: Klassified

lol. very well said

originally posted by: Jay-morris
a reply to: TinkerHaus

PEDOPHILES, its just sexual. They are predators who only care about their sexual needs. They are completely different to gay, or straight people who are in normal relationshios because there is love, its not just sex.

Love is a choice.

Those who do not love, choice to sin.
Sin hurts the self and others, not GOD.
Choosing to love is choosing LIFE.
All other choices bring death.

Sexual sin is only offensive to God
because it hurts people.

originally posted by: wasaka

originally posted by: Jay-morris
a reply to: TinkerHaus

PEDOPHILES, its just sexual. They are predators who only care about their sexual needs. They are completely different to gay, or straight people who are in normal relationshios because there is love, its not just sex.

Love is a choice.

You're off to a bad start. Both science and theology disagree with this statement.

"Love" is scientifically an involuntary chemical reaction of oxytocin and dopamine.

Biblically, "love" is given to man by God.

Neither of these are a choice, sorry.

Those who do not love, choice to sin.
Sin hurts the self and others, not GOD.
Choosing to love is choosing LIFE.
All other choices bring death.

Sexual sin is only offensive to God
because it hurts people.

This is an emotional appeal -- a logical fallacy

Emotional Appeals
When it comes to determining the validity or factuality of a claim, any attempt to sway an argument via emotion, rather than the quality of the logic or evidence, can be considered a fallacy. This includes in some but not all cases the fallacy argument from adverse consequences, or “scare tactic”; bad things will happen to us if you do not agree with my argument.

a reply to: wasaka

Sexual sin is only offensive to God
because it hurts people.

What? If you're talking about rape, then yes. (In terms of it being offensive, however - I'd say it is offensive to PEOPLE, where "God" appears to be largely absent and/or oblivious as to the subject. Only PEOPLE are hacking each other to death and all that fun stuff. I look around, and no where do I see "God" here to care either way, or to fix anything. I see a few people - including the Pope, and the Dalai Lama...but that's it.)
I don't know your definition of "sexual sin." Rape, pedophilia, and assault....yes, those are offensive to everyone - because they hurt people.

Could you explain your stance on what you consider to be 'sexual sin'?