Question to those who say being gay is a choice?

a reply to: cj6

There is NO wrong or right side. If youre gonna protest against someone who opposes gay marriage why not protest someone who does support it??

Because one wants to deny the rights of a group of people and the other doesn't.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: cj6

There is NO wrong or right side. If youre gonna protest against someone who opposes gay marriage why not protest someone who does support it??

Because one wants to deny the rights of a group of people and the other doesn't.

Um the other does! They want to deny the people the right to have thier own beliefs on the issue. It goes both ways. By the way you can't deny someone the right to do something when it's been the law since the beginning of our society. You should have a problem with the people that CREATED the law NOT the people that simply support the law.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: cj6

Orson Scott Card who wrote the book Ender's Game publicly stated that he did not support gay marriage shortly before the film version was released.

Not exactly.

How long before married people answer the dictators thus: Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society where they will expect to marry in their turn.

www.deseretnews.com...

It depends on what year you quote OSC.

He resigned from the NOM board in 2013 ---- and "seems" to have evolved on the issue (or is just less vocal).

Whether he evolved because of his "pocketbook" or something else, I don't know.

a reply to: cj6
I get the idea sure, but you cannot extend that to all gay people. Using the most conservative three percent of a population being gay, we get roughly 210,000,000 gay people. Assuming the actions of those boycotting Card's film is representative of all those people is absurd. That's just the gay people. There is a huge number of heterosexual people that fully support LGBT. Those actions don't automatically represent them either. The only thing you can realistically take from isolated instances like that is that some people agree with their actions.

That said. I also boycotted his film lol Ender's Game is one of my favorite books, and I read both the Ender and Peter line of books. When I heard about Orson's thoughts I made that decision. He was opposing what I believed, so I opposed him via the cost of a movie ticket. I didn't show up anywhere to protest or sign a petition to have it removed. To me that would be taking it a little too far.

Also you don't seem very familiar with Orson Scott Card's thoughts on the issue if you think it's simply him being against gay marriage and is not 'spiteful or hateful'. Here are his quotes:

Homophobic quotes by Orson Scott Card

a reply to: cj6

They want to deny the people the right to have thier own beliefs on the issue.

No. They want to point out how those beliefs can be damaging by interfering with the rights of others.

By the way you can't deny someone the right to do something when it's been the law since the beginning of our society.

So I suppose universal suffrage was wrong. I suppose slavery was fine.

You should have a problem with the people that CREATED the law NOT the people that simply support the law.

They are dead. It's a little late for that. But can you show me the law (the original one) that says marriage is only legal for men and women?

originally posted by: cj6

originally posted by: Inthewakeofdark

originally posted by: cj6
a reply to: Inthewakeofdark

I've said before I believe a person can make the "choice" of their sexuality subconsciously and then consciously accept that and act upon it. Still makes it a choice.

I understand this thought process, however I'm not sure If you and I are really giving mutual consideration to the ideas being presented. You are saying that a conscious choice and a unconscious decision are exactly the same thing, however I thought I had clearly made a point to say that they are very different processes.

No I never said they were the same. In fact I later stated that the subconscious mind and the conscious mind can have opposing ideals. But we cannot change or control what our subconscious tells us, we can only CHOOSE to accept what it tells us or not. If something in your subconscious tells you something is wrong...yet you consciously believe it is right...then you have made a choice to rely on your conscious mind rather than your subconscious mind.

I appreciate your response and your insight to the subconscious working however I still think I can shed some light.

For starters let's listen to what people are saying about it not being a choice, they are simply giving an alternate semantic way that to me clarifies the purposes that lie inherent in the two aspects discussed.

You say that you can choose to accept what the subconscious mind tells us or not, and stated that this decision is relegated to the subconscious mind. And that if you do not accept, then the conscious mind is actively disagreeing. Although this is an interesting way to think of their relationship, I don't think its quite how it works.

This is how I believe it works.

The subconscious mind is the driving force of who you are, it is the "soup," of your mind, the "fuel," and it is actively searching for processes to be discovered. It is unknown, undefinable, searching definition by being explored, your "ghost," or "soul". The way that it is explored is being actively being channeled into your conscious experience. Spirit>Soul>Self

Therefore, the Conscious Mind is the only part of your self awareness that can actively attributed with the word CHOICE in regards to who you think you are, and your ego.

The conscious mind is not really so much of an entity, as is the subconscious mind but more of a sequence of events that react to stimulus, depending on how much of the unconscious is being accessed. The conscious mind, means exactly that, with consciousness, or with awareness.

So when you have an urge resulting from your unconscious being accessed, and you disagree with it, you are actually not making an conscious choice as you have stated, but an unconscious choice. Yet it is not really a choice, it is simply a reaction to reject, but hidden from the self, which is why trouble can ensue. If the conscious self was aware of the rejection, they would be much more able to solve the dillemma. The reason is because the fact that you disagreed with it, shows that it never came into consciousness in the first place, it stayed in the soup, where it was unknown, where it could possibly make one uneasy.

If you follow the train, it becomes simple

1. Unconscious actively being integrated into Conscious Mind= More decisions(subject feels a sense of watching over their inner processes and makes intellectual decisions for actions, yet still able to be fully immersed)

^used to be

2. Lack of stimulus from unconscious, preeminent awareness=Singular experience, (Subject does not feel like they had a choice and is simply engrossed within actions)

This is the point I wanted to make because although we can state that choice exists for many people, for others they actually do not ever THINK of it and that is what I think is meant to be validated here. If you remember thinking of it, its a conscious choice, if not its simply a conscious experience. In other words, they had nothing to be explored there unconsciously in their life at that current time, perhaps because the unconscious was being explored in a non sexual sense.

The third scenario is the one you present in which the where the decision is disagreed upon by the ego.
(conflict!)
3. Unconscious rejected by Ego,= Never makes it to consciousness, floods active mind with uncertainty, doubt, etc

This is when the conscious mind reacts to stimulus made from the unconscious and leave excess, and leave you with a sense of not knowing who you really are because the search for self has not been fulfilled. In a romantic sense, people in this stage can become depressed, and become unsexualized, or oversexualized in a search to fill the gap that has been created by the rejection of their inner self.

You said that homosexual feelings made you uneasy, which to me is a good leeway to explain this a little bit better. The uneasyness is a form of reaction, however your conscious choice to engage heterosexually felt right to you, which is a sign of Choice. Your mind creates the illusion of weighing these two against each other because that is what you specifically needed in order to be you, but for others, they never experience this and thus never experience the choice. It simply doesn't happen. You for one reason or another have emotions that cause uneasyness there, which is not a sign of weakness, I simply draw to attention that it is the process of understanding that it does not need to be explored. If you did explore it, well, you probably would not have. That's my point, it was the illusion of choice, but really it was only one choice. The acceptance of the self. There fore you had no choice.

Its always going to be confusing. But that's the truth, it's not static, it's different for everyone, Sexuality, is both choice, and not a choice.

Once it becomes a choice, it becomes a search for it to no longer be a choice to the self and be singular once again. Discovering truth in order to live and enjoy blindly once more, we dance between the two eternally and defining is not important, but it's fun to understand the processes.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

No one should protest someone's project based on their own personal beliefs point blank period!!!!! I just wish everyone would accept that we all have DIFFERENT beliefs and leave it at that.

a reply to: cj6
I wish people didn't treat anyone unequally just because they are not the same as they are.
I wish people had right to do what every other person can do.

a reply to: Inthewakeofdark

Simply put...you blew my mind!!

a reply to: cj6

That's good I suppose!

I appreciate your interest in wanting us to all engage within our own opinions. Cheers.

a reply to: cj6

No one should protest someone's project based on their own personal beliefs

Too bad, so sad. I protested it by deciding not to give him my money. I see nothing wrong with that decision. His beliefs had consequences.

originally posted by: cj6
a reply to: Inthewakeofdark

Simply put...you blew my mind!!

You 2 should meet for coffee somewhere.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy
I hear the movie was crap.
I didn't see it. Not because I knew Card's politics, just because I figured the movie would have to be crap. The book(s) were too good to be a movie.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: cj6

No one should protest someone's project based on their own personal beliefs

Too bad, so sad. I protested it by deciding not to give him my money. I see nothing wrong with that decision. His beliefs had consequences.

I did the same thing.

I don't need to give him money to donate to NOM.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: cj6

No one should protest someone's project based on their own personal beliefs

Too bad, so sad. I protested it by deciding not to give him my money. I see nothing wrong with that decision. His beliefs had consequences.

His beliefs are his own why can't you just leave it alone? Not everyone is gonna share your beliefs about gay marriage...does that mean you should protest everything they do?? No just let it be. Gay marriage is now legal in a lot of states correct? So OSC nor anyone else who opposes gay marriage is really stopping your cause. For F's sake you won! Be gracious about it.

originally posted by: cj6

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: cj6

No one should protest someone's project based on their own personal beliefs

Too bad, so sad. I protested it by deciding not to give him my money. I see nothing wrong with that decision. His beliefs had consequences.

His beliefs are his own why can't you just leave it alone? Not everyone is gonna share your beliefs about gay marriage...does that mean you should protest everything they do?? No just let it be. Gay marriage is now legal in a lot of states correct? So OSC nor anyone else who opposes gay marriage is really stopping your cause. For F's sake you won! Be gracious about it.

Let me put it this way: "I don't smoke because I think it's stupid to buy my own death".

I don't line the pockets of someone who uses that money to legislate against marriage equality.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: cj6

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: cj6

No one should protest someone's project based on their own personal beliefs

Too bad, so sad. I protested it by deciding not to give him my money. I see nothing wrong with that decision. His beliefs had consequences.

His beliefs are his own why can't you just leave it alone? Not everyone is gonna share your beliefs about gay marriage...does that mean you should protest everything they do?? No just let it be. Gay marriage is now legal in a lot of states correct? So OSC nor anyone else who opposes gay marriage is really stopping your cause. For F's sake you won! Be gracious about it.

Let me put it this way: "I don't smoke because I think it's stupid to buy my own death".

I don't line the pockets of someone who uses that money to legislate against marriage equality.

Yet you line the pockets of corrupt politicians, corrupt law enforcement and a corrupt "justice" system but that's ok right? As long as they don't mess with marriage equality they can keep destroying the rest of the country lol off topic I know!! Anyways marriage is not a huge issue anymore because it's legal in a lot of states but is that not enough? Does your cause for marriage equality require each and every state to make it legal? Never heard of compromise huh?

originally posted by: cj6

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: cj6

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: cj6

No one should protest someone's project based on their own personal beliefs

Too bad, so sad. I protested it by deciding not to give him my money. I see nothing wrong with that decision. His beliefs had consequences.

His beliefs are his own why can't you just leave it alone? Not everyone is gonna share your beliefs about gay marriage...does that mean you should protest everything they do?? No just let it be. Gay marriage is now legal in a lot of states correct? So OSC nor anyone else who opposes gay marriage is really stopping your cause. For F's sake you won! Be gracious about it.

Let me put it this way: "I don't smoke because I think it's stupid to buy my own death".

I don't line the pockets of someone who uses that money to legislate against marriage equality.

Yet you line the pockets of corrupt politicians, corrupt law enforcement and a corrupt "justice" system but that's ok right?

What????

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: cj6

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: cj6

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: cj6

No one should protest someone's project based on their own personal beliefs

Too bad, so sad. I protested it by deciding not to give him my money. I see nothing wrong with that decision. His beliefs had consequences.

His beliefs are his own why can't you just leave it alone? Not everyone is gonna share your beliefs about gay marriage...does that mean you should protest everything they do?? No just let it be. Gay marriage is now legal in a lot of states correct? So OSC nor anyone else who opposes gay marriage is really stopping your cause. For F's sake you won! Be gracious about it.

Let me put it this way: "I don't smoke because I think it's stupid to buy my own death".

I don't line the pockets of someone who uses that money to legislate against marriage equality.

Yet you line the pockets of corrupt politicians, corrupt law enforcement and a corrupt "justice" system but that's ok right?

What????

Taxes...never mind lol I can enjoy someone's work regardless of their beliefs. Try it...it's very freeing.

originally posted by: cj6

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: cj6

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: cj6

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: cj6

No one should protest someone's project based on their own personal beliefs

Too bad, so sad. I protested it by deciding not to give him my money. I see nothing wrong with that decision. His beliefs had consequences.

His beliefs are his own why can't you just leave it alone? Not everyone is gonna share your beliefs about gay marriage...does that mean you should protest everything they do?? No just let it be. Gay marriage is now legal in a lot of states correct? So OSC nor anyone else who opposes gay marriage is really stopping your cause. For F's sake you won! Be gracious about it.

Let me put it this way: "I don't smoke because I think it's stupid to buy my own death".

I don't line the pockets of someone who uses that money to legislate against marriage equality.

Yet you line the pockets of corrupt politicians, corrupt law enforcement and a corrupt "justice" system but that's ok right?

What????

Taxes...never mind lol I can enjoy someone's work regardless of their beliefs. Try it...it's very freeing.

Would you like me to explain NOM. National Organization for Marriage. You'd think with a name like that they might be developing activist groups to combat the rise in divorce.

But, NO --- they were formed for one specific reason: Stop Marriage Equality. That is there one and only purpose.

And why are they on the SPLC list of Hate Groups? Not because they are anti-gay, but because they promote lies and falsehoods.

Just ignore his little personal belief. He's harmless.