Teacher hangs herself in classroom before students arrive; had lectured students in past on suicide

a reply to: Rocker2013

Thank you. It is always a good thing to hear that there are folks who support your beliefs. It is a confirmation.

Just like you and others who have publicly offered support, I've also had those who have privately contacted me, or added me as a friend here on ATS as a show of support or simply that we are on the same wavelength.

As I said previously, I was raised in a midwestern culture. People, men in particular, do not discuss personal issues or problems. There is no problem a person, let alone a man, cannot solve on their own.

It took me the better part of two decades to shake this vector of thought.

Many folks here appear to find it difficult to accept the fact that I agree what happened was horrible. But it is just as horrible for the person who committed suicide as it is for those that discovered the body.

Has anyone asked why she was hanging around? Also most teachers have to be let into the buildings by administrators or someone in the morning. Its not a stretch to say maybe she was into breath play and was fooling around with another teacher and accidentally or intentionally died during said action? But Cops are lazy and hardly ever look past the surface due to paperwork itis and being allergic to work.

a reply to: nullafides

Randy, it seems like we might be able to come to a point of mutual understanding here.

Of course we can, I was hoping you might see that.

But, I also feel for the woman who felt this was the way she needed to go. Who was in such a f&cked up state of being that THIS was how she felt she needed to do it.

And I have no problem with that. But I do not. Only because
she's dead and it will do her no good anyway. I didn't know her or
about her until she was dead. So it sounds callus I agree but, I find it
hard to have compassion for her. Do I think it's sad? Hell yes, I am human.
But then she even countered that by doing what she did and letting her
students see that horror. That was just wrong on top of wrong. I'll save
my compassion for the living and that includes you. I really do love to
help people but I can't help the dead. While I know nothing of the
lines in the sand of which you referred. I believe it's because I refuse
to take myself to seriously. I don't laugh all day like an idiot but I do
love to laugh. If I can ever help you I will certainly try because you
are alive. Live your life null as only you can. If you can laugh at yourself
it's a free pass to laugh at everyone else.

a reply to: randyvs

Well, by line in the sand, I meant the point where an individual has taken all that they can take. Be it physical OR emotional pain.

I do laugh. And, I try to laugh at myself to take myself unseriously as much as possible.

There are times though, where this simply doesn't float. Where the weight on a person's shoulders, mine included, precludes the capacity for laughing at yourself.


Out of curiosity, how do you feel about terminally ill patients who opt for suicide? I'm not looking to start an argument, I'm just curious about how you feel regarding the topic.

a reply to: nullafides

That's something entirely different as you know.
Terminally ill and in pain? I feel they have every right to
opt out in a decent manner. And that mercy killings allow
a patient the dignity they deserve. It is hard tho to know when
to give up. You just neverknow what's just around the corner and
as long as there is life, there is hope.

Real tuff question.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: nullafides

That's something entirely different as you know.
Terminally ill and in pain? I feel they have every right to
opt out in a decent manner. And that mercy killings allow
a patient the dignity they deserve. It is hard tho to know when
to give up. You just neverknow what's just around the corner and
as long as there is life, there is hope.

Real tuff question.

Now, do you truly differentiate between physical and emotional pain though? Admittedly, this is not discussing the situation with the teacher and the students. It is more of a "right to die" tangent.

Do you believe that a person has the right to die when they decide to do so? Again, not looking to point fingers or say you're wrong...just, curious.

a reply to: nullafides


And that's a negative because of the people they leave
behind with shattered lives. I can't imagine the pain and
sorrow the parents of a suicided teen experience. I can
only say for myself it would be unrelenting and life long.
Left with questions that will not be answered in this life time
at least. I don't believe suicide ever takes just one life.
Not like that.

a reply to: randyvs


I would think parents losing a child would be the same if it were suicide or otherwise.....

a reply to: nullafides

Wow, I just realized we're two different people! lol

Suicide would add insult to injury in my view.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: nullafides

Wow, I just realized were two different people! lol

Suicide would add insult to injury in my view.

Ummmm....yeah...two..different.......people

a reply to: Anyafaj

If I can play devil's advocate for a moment. She may have choosen the location because if she is without a support network and she desired her body to be found. I'm not defending her choice, simply offering insight. Although this appears "selfish" in reality people who cannot find relief for their personal pain simply want it to stop and this can be the end result. Thinking of the reprecussions of their choice on others isn't usually a priority when someone is in crisis. I admit I have an emotional investment in this discussion but I try to balance my personal experience with my professional experience and education.A person in crisis sometimes actually imagines their suicide will unburden and bring relief to their loved ones who may have suffered through nuemerous such crisis in the past with the person.

originally posted by: wondering5740
a reply to: Anyafaj

If I can play devil's advocate for a moment. She may have choosen the location because if she is without a support network and she desired her body to be found. I'm not defending her choice, simply offering insight. Although this appears "selfish" in reality people who cannot find relief for their personal pain simply want it to stop and this can be the end result. Thinking of the reprecussions of their choice on others isn't usually a priority when someone is in crisis. I admit I have an emotional investment in this discussion but I try to balance my personal experience with my professional experience and education.A person in crisis sometimes actually imagines their suicide will unburden and bring relief to their loved ones who may have suffered through nuemerous such crisis in the past with the person.

Thank you for your thoughts. That's certainly a possibility. It is a shame she chose this location and scarred those kids. I understand the reasoning, but sadly, she did it in such a way, she has now left a lasting impression on her class, in a bad way, that I don't think she meant to leave.

a reply to: threeeyesopen

Well good for you! Then I doubt you have ever suffered such a debilitating depression that you wanted to take your life......
I know nothing about you but from your post, you sound like "well you just need to pull up the old boot straps, suck it up and make the best of it" "you know try harder"! Again, not judging you just reflecting on your posts.....

How many here know what it is like to be so depressed that you see the only option as taking your own life? Okay, that sounds like a rational question, doesn't it? Now, most of you based on your responses so far.....will continue along the same lines as you have already stated......but you are missing the KEY FACTOR! People who are considering suicide are NOT EXACTLY RATIONAL!! You, cannot reason rationally with someone who is irrational! And this is the biggest reason people call the deceased selfish! And say how they lacked empathy, and how could they?? and so on!

Now, threeeyesopen, Glad you were able to get through your difficult time! But I question whether of not you were " in a state of psychosis". Psychosis involves hallucinations and/or delusions...

1. Hallucination: Were you seeing or hearing or smelling things that were not there? Were you having thought voices?
delusion: Did you hold a belief that something was occurring in your reality that even given evidence to show you it was not happening you still held true to that belief?

Now here is the formal definition of each: hallucination......

a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images.

2. delusion: Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact:

dictionary.com

There are more in depth discussions on psych pages all over net.....I am trying to show the basic definitions....

So, do you see the words "mental disorder"? Now, in your case and for sake of argument you stated "psychosis".....were you aware of your reality when you were contemplating suicide?? I am not asking you disclose personal details ......if you were and you were able to reason yourself out of it.....then i question whether or not you were truly in a psychotic state.....

Perhaps you were extremely depressed and you did consider suicide or even planned it in detail....you are just not the kind of person that could go through with it in any circumstance......And that is how everyone of you is rushing to judgement regarding the circumstances of this teacher........

what if she was psychotic and was hearing voices and had been for long time......and was fighting to control those voices on her own had managed fine and then one day they got that best of her.....What if she was schizophrenic and did not realize what was going on and had no clue when she took her own life.......

As much as people would like to put everything in its black or white box ....the answer usually falls in the gray! Many of you here are looking at this from the rational standpoint of your own mind....well it begs the question if a person commits suicide are they really in their rational mind, at all?

So it is my opinion that she did not lack empathy but she was truly mentally ill and for whatever reason was not able to get help...perhaps she did not know she was mentally ill...Think about that, people who are delusional and believe someone is out to do them harm......they believe THIS IS REAL! It is the only reality they know. And when this type of a belief is going on, it is often the mentally ill person that thinks the subject of their delusion is the one with the problem.....it never occurs to them that they may be the one who is sick!

My point is regardless of the perceived circumstances......when someone commits suicide, we need to see the situation for what it is, a tragedy for all those involved....and the most important thing we need to do is demonstrate a little empathy and compassion for the one who felt no hope no way out.....

To say this is a choice a person makes...sounds to me that you are speaking of a choice a person in their "rational" mind makes......I am sorry but you are wrong! Again i am glad you worked your through your personal trial.....just remember we are all individual and do not share the same experience except that we are all human.....



Pax

A sad sad situation all around.
She either didn't get the help she needed or didn't look for help.
I have seen two suicides in a place I worked in (one in front of me and one where I walked in and the person had hung themselves) and I have come to the conclusion that If someone really wants to do themselves in they will find a way.
Hope the kids recover and I hope this raises the awareness of mental wellbeing and how important it is to talk and seek help before it snowballs out of control.

a reply to: Anyafaj

one thing i would want to know is if she was on anti depressant medication. some of them have terrible side effects including but not limited to dark thoughts. the whole event could be a result of her body's chemical reaction to a pharmaceutical.

I didn't read through all nine pages of comments, so I don't know if this thought has been mentioned.

Students can be completely unsympathetic toward situations. Students can also be incredibly mean towards teachers they don't like. Seeing as how a suicide was an emotional topic for the teach, and something she discussed many times, it's most certainly possibly a student, or students, made comments about her father's suicide and her.

So before calling the teacher selfish, or uncarring, remember that students can be complete jerks as well.

originally posted by: subfab
a reply to: Anyafaj

one thing i would want to know is if she was on anti depressant medication. some of them have terrible side effects including but not limited to dark thoughts. the whole event could be a result of her body's chemical reaction to a pharmaceutical.

Very true. Effexor messed me up badly, even going off of it was hard to do.

2nd

originally posted by: EternalSolace
I didn't read through all nine pages of comments, so I don't know if this thought has been mentioned.

Students can be completely unsympathetic toward situations. Students can also be incredibly mean towards teachers they don't like. Seeing as how a suicide was an emotional topic for the teach, and something she discussed many times, it's most certainly possibly a student, or students, made comments about her father's suicide and her.

So before calling the teacher selfish, or uncarring, remember that students can be complete jerks as well.

That is true. She was very well liked by most of her classes, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one kid who wasn't a jerk to her.

I'm a friend of free speech and free thought. Take the following words as my own and no attack towards another.

I feel like in the world of extreme depression, psychosis, mania, etc, there is a massive lack of understanding for the person enduring such illness. Society likes to either sweep mental illness under the rug, or play hero and tell people "oh I know exactly how she felt."

No...you most absolutely, 100% certainly do NOT know how she felt. There is not one possible method you can come up with to explain away that you know how she felt. Period. She is a different human with a different brain, chemistry, set of thoughts, feelings, abilities to cope and risky factors. No two depressions are alike. No two sets of psychosis are alike. No two experiences with medications or treatment are alike. But most importantly, no two people are alike.

I'm bothered by the idea that suicide is selfish and cowardly. Not because I have some magical way to prove or disprove such an idea; rather that the idea alone (agree or disagree) is only an idea and only shared by the person speaking it.

We have this ugly aura around our society that tells people that clinical depression, anxiety, mania, PTSD etc is a weakness and that we should all take our medications and kindly shut up about it. We also live in a society where apparently an anecdote or two equals reality.

People suffer every second of every minute of their lives. To tell them that physical disability is somehow more relevant or real than a mental/emotional/behavioral disability is truly disgusting (always my opinion of course...not to speak for others).

But until you have been to or witnessed those depths of raw, undulating and real emotional pain, I'd sooner tell you that you may be ignorant of such suffering. But even if you personally have felt/witnessed it and grew through it (and bravo by the way), your experience or observation does NOT equal the experience of another.

I am bipolar. I am in pretty good shape lately. Right med combo and talking to my own therapist has helped me control a good deal of the negatives I carry. I also have made my own attempt on my life twice and thought about it daily for four years. I make no mistake in realizing that it would have hurt others. I am also glad I found a lifeline. But to tell me or anyone else in a pit that they can literally see no way out of, selfish and cowardly, is adding to the problem and helping nobody.

As a therapist who worked three years in various emergency rooms, I have indeed seen many, many people in that pit and yes I have lost three despite my efforts. I hate that it happened and of course I wish I could have found the magic word to have healed. But these things occur. The families were indeed hurt. That is a reality. The kids in this situation probably are hurt too. I of course wish this lovely woman were alive and I of course wish these lovely children did not have to witness the scene they did. But it is so upsetting for me to see so many people tell this forum that "well she should have made a rational choice and either not done it or did it elsewhere" when this woman was probably in the most irrational moment of her life.

I feel for these kids. But I feel for her...and you may disagree...but I feel for her equally...maybe even more so. And as I stated up top, I will repeat again. Free speech/thought...they are great. So I take no issue with anyone who will disagree. but I also don't think it's a horrible thing to feel 50-50 for the teacher and her kids. I don't think it's wrong to realize how tremendously painful her life must have been and to take care to think of her as a good person, in pain...and not a criminal.

Thank you all

I must say that both paxnatus and KyoZero deserve applause for their incredible insight and unusual depth of understanding in this sad event. Most of us simply aren’t blessed with such a high capacity for empathy, and are unable to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes. Even when well intentioned, most of us render judgement on others through the lens of our own often clouded view of the world. We presume that everyone else must see and feel life just as we do. Unfortunately, that presumption is horribly wrong, 100% of the time.

I’m in no way trying to find fault in others, or minimize their point of view. I think that being subjective, and to a degree self-absorbed, is just part of the human condition. Since we can’t literally experience someone else’s life, we can only imagine it through our own. IMHO, simply acknowledging this to be the case, though, can go a long way toward feeling greater empathy for others.

In the case of the teacher that hung herself, you can’t rationalize why she did it the way she did. In the first place, there was no detail given about the incident. Secondly, even if there was, it’s still impossible to imagine the extreme state of mind she was experiencing. You can’t put yourself in her shoes. With the exception of terminally ill patients, suicide doesn’t fall into the category of rational, well-reasoned, logical behavior. We’ll never truly understand why she did what she did and the way she did it. At best we can just feel sorrow for her pain and her loved ones, and try not to render judgement.

It’s a cryin’ shame...

PS: The first thing that came to my mind upon reading this was Robin Williams' suicide. Most would think he had everything. Apparently, though, for all he had it was no match for the demons in his head. What a sad story.