The Real Next Level BS of the Vaccine Controversy.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Thank you for the informative thread

I was also disappointed with certain portions of the issue which were left out.

Many courts have conceded that autism does cause autism. Sure the courts are not a health organization but scientists and health officials do provide testimony and evidence at these trials so they cannot dismiss these decisions as they were backed by scientific data.

Government Concedes Vaccine-Autism Case in Federal Court - Now What?

Italian Health Ministry Concedes MMR Vaccine Caused Autism

There have many more rulings just like this but the media usually stays quiet about them (not always, but most the time).

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

You quoted the first paragraph of that Wikipedia page in your opening post. Here's the second.

Some parents of children with autism spectrum disorders have attributed the disorders' onset to vaccines, often citing the mercury-based preservative thiomersal as the cause, and some have filed suit for compensation from vaccine makers. The medical and scientific communities nearly unanimously deny a link between routine childhood vaccines and autism, as no evidence has been found to support this.

The article goes on to discuss the encounter between the autism/antivax lobby and the courts in some detail. Essentially, the vaccine courts were set up for a different reason, have made awards to many people who have proved injury (or even a substantial possibility of injury) by vaccines, but they have made only one award relating to an autism case. It was a very special case, described in the Wikipedia article.

originally posted by: Witness2008
a reply to: SkepticOverlord

I think a part one, part two, possibly a part three for such a meaty subject. There are states now attempting to circumvent personal medical freedoms based on uneducated hysterics, seems an important enough subject to provide a complete commentary.

Yes, more videos on vaccinations are planned. This will most likely happen next week.

For this week, I've picked a chiller topic which I'll post the intro thread shortly.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
So, why is it that the NLBS folk claim that Wakenfield is one of the main originators of the "anti-vaccine movement"?

Because that's what he did. Previous data did not result in a "movement." In the interest of a concise presentation, we started with the person credited (by many more than us, in fact, just about everyone) for starting the anti-vaccine movement.


What's the big deal?

Dampening an issue and making it look like less of a threat by not telling all the facts... I think that's a big deal, for a show that's intended to break down facts... there's more to the story than what was told.

As a youngster, I really appreciate threads like this -- and NLBS, because I wasn't around when most of this stuff happened. I'm learning it all here now, and having all the facts is kind of important for people like me.

But really, we should all take the initiative to do our own research rather than rely on webshows, threads or radio shows to do so -- I know that quite a lot of people on ATS do this, and from it great threads are born, but my brain is a little scattered. Some of us need reminding to look into things ourselves instead of just listening to the voices around us.

I know this thread has already dragged on a bit, but I'm not gonna read the whole thing. Just wanted to say my 2cents. Peace

originally posted by: roth1
Thanks. Sorry to say i am not to find of NLBS. But only to be aware of some things i may not have been. I will do my own research. NLBS seems biased. Sorry but i want to choose about a vaccine. I f you get yourself vaccinated. Why the hell should you care about others. You should be protected if it works so well. Same for the BS about Fluoride. Brush you freaking teeth, don't poison me. Who the hell does NLBS work for? Touting this BS and selling junk to people. Because at the end they seem to recommend it. Not just present cherry picked facts or comments.

I love that when your own conspiracy site actually takes the time to try and debunk things that waste time around here...you consider them as being idiots too, lol. Awesome.

You are an inspiration to us all. The quality, dept, and breadth of this artical is something of a work of art. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for the time you spent.
Now lets see if others have the courage to address your information in kind, with the pursuit of truth being of paramount importance.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

You quoted the first paragraph of that Wikipedia page in your opening post. Here's the second.

Some parents of children with autism spectrum disorders have attributed the disorders' onset to vaccines, often citing the mercury-based preservative thiomersal as the cause, and some have filed suit for compensation from vaccine makers. The medical and scientific communities nearly unanimously deny a link between routine childhood vaccines and autism, as no evidence has been found to support this.

The article goes on to discuss the encounter between the autism/antivax lobby and the courts in some detail. Essentially, the vaccine courts were set up for a different reason, have made awards to many people who have proved injury (or even a substantial possibility of injury) by vaccines, but they have made only one award relating to an autism case. It was a very special case, described in the Wikipedia article.

In other words...you ignored the information that you did not wish to see and drew a fraudulent line of logic between two unrelated events. All because you did not like the facts presented to you by NLBS.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

I agree with you. What happened to Wakefield was character assassination, and a warning to others like him of what can happen to them if they get too close to the truth behind certain issues. Fortunately, things seem to be changing somewhat for the better even though we still have to this day attempts made by officials, and even many media sources to try to bury the evidence by ridiculing, and belittle people who dare question the safety of vaccines. It's just sad to see ATS jump in the same bandwagon.

There is not doubt that there are vaccines that are needed, but the vaccine industry has become first and foremost a business, and as such it's first interest is making money, not the safety of the public.

How many times have we found that several batches of vaccines were infected with viruses when the CDC is suposed to test all batches of vaccines, but it is obvious that not even this is done. Instead they, alongside the FDA, are allowing vaccine manufacturers to self regulate themselves, and this in turn leads to many of the problems we are seeing with vaccines not being as safe as they are claimed to be.

Vaccine manufacturers can, and do change the ingredients from different batches, this is turn should tell the cdc that every batch should be checked, or at least those in which ingredients were changed by the vaccine manufacturers. But this is not happening and what occurs is that infected batches of vaccines are given to the public and thousands of people, and sometimes millions get infected.

Anticancer Res. 1999 May-Jun;19(3B):2173-80.
Cancer risk associated with simian virus 40 contaminated polio vaccine.
Fisher SG1, Weber L, Carbone M.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

The presence of SV40 in monkey cell cultures used in the preparation of the polio vaccine from 1955 through 1961 is well documented. Investigations have consistently demonstrated the oncogenic behavior of SV40 in animal models. Early epidemiologic studies were inadequate in demonstrating an increase in cancer incidence associated with contaminated vaccine. Recently, investigators have provided persuasive evidence that SV40 is present in human ependymomas, choroid plexus tumors, bone tumors, and mesotheliomas, however, the etiologic role of the virus in tumorigenesis has not been established.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:

Using data from SEER, we analyzed the incidence of brain tumors, bone tumors, and mesotheliomas from 1973-1993 and the possible relationship of these tumors with the administration of the SV40 contaminated vaccine.
RESULTS:

Our analysis indicates increased rates of ependymomas (37%), osteogenic sarcomas (26%), other bone tumors (34%) and mesothelioma (90%) among those in the exposed as compared to the unexposed birth cohort.
CONCLUSIONS:

These data suggest that there may be an increased incidence of certain cancers among the 98 million persons exposed to contaminated polio vaccine in the U.S.; further investigations are clearly justified.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Fungal Meningitis Outbreak: 13,000 Tainted Shots
By Daniel J. DeNoon
WebMD Health News
Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD
WebMD News Archive

Oct. 9, 2012 – About 13,000 people in 23 states got the fungus-contaminated steroid pain shots in the ongoing outbreak of fungal meningitis.

So far, 119 people who got the shots have come down with fungal infections of the fluid surrounding their spinal cords and brains.

Eleven of those people have died. The case count rises daily, as symptoms of fungal infection can take up to a month to appear, and there's often a delay in case reporting.
...

www.webmd.com...

Then there are cases when it took years for agencies like the FDA to find that some vaccine manufacturers were not following safety procedures in some vaccine manufacturing plants and this lead to contaminated vaccines.

FDA Warns GSK Over Flu Vaccine Contamination

By Jeff Overley
Law360, New York (June 24, 2014, 2:48 PM ET) -- GlaxoSmithKline PLC failed to take appropriate steps to prevent bacterial contamination of its widely used flu vaccine Flulaval, causing many product batches to become tainted, according to a U.S. Food and Drug Administration warning letter released Tuesday.
The FDA’s letter, which stems from inspections in March and April, describes quality control processes at a GSK plant in Canada that had several loopholes and were applied inconsistently, resulting in microbial contamination that forced drug lots to be discarded.

For example, GSK did not have comprehensive written policies to prevent contamination of purportedly sterile products, and to the extent that policies were in place, they weren’t always followed, the letter charged.

Separately, regulators criticized the performance of GSK’s water purification system, writing that it was found to have missed various types of bacteria, including organisms from a chicken egg hatchery involved in the vaccine’s production. There also is “no set schedule” for disinfecting the system, according to the letter, which said that such cleanings took place twice in 2011, five times in 2012, four times in 2013 and once to date in 2014.

Further, the FDA asserted that manufacturing lapses persisted even after attempts to address them, writing that the production process “continued to generate out-of-specification results for [bacteria] even after several corrective and preventive actions were implemented.”

To rectify the matter, GSK is expected to undertake a “comprehensive and global assessment of all of its manufacturing operations to ensure that all products conform to FDA requirements,” the warning letter said.
...

www.law360.com...

BTW, as a side note, I am noticing some errors in some of my first posts. First, I have to type with one hand, and it took me 2 hours just to gather the information, and then 3 more hours publishing and trying to rewrite my statements. Some of those statements I copied from my responses in others threads, and it took me so long that by 3 am I was still posting. It was late and I was tired. So some of what I wrote in those posts were not directed at NLBS, or the ATS staff, but I didn't have the time to proof read them all. So apologies for those mistakes.

a reply to: Astyanax


If you actually read the other posts I made related to that point in specific, about vaccine court, you would have noticed that the cases in which a link to vaccines and encephalopathy was made, they were accepted and awarded compensation. But if the case was presented that vaccines can cause autism, all cases were denied. What you don't seem to understand is that encephalopathy can regress and lead to autism. Some vaccines can also cause seizures and this has also been linked as a possible cause for autism. More so to people and children with a genetic predisposition, such as mitochondrial disorders, to be more affected by more damaging side effects that vaccines can cause.

Fever Plus Mitochondrial Disease Could Be Risk Factors for Autistic Regression

John Shoffner, MD
Medical Neurogenetics, LLC, Atlanta, Georgia, [email protected], Georgia State University, Atlanta, Georgia



Lauren Hyams, PhD
Medical Neurogenetics, LLC, Atlanta, Georgia

Genevieve Niedziela Langley, BS
Medical Neurogenetics, LLC, Atlanta, Georgia

Stephanie Cossette, BS
Medical Neurogenetics, LLC, Atlanta, Georgia

Lauren Mylacraine, BS
Medical Neurogenetics, LLC, Atlanta, Georgia

Jeffrey Dale, BS
Medical Neurogenetics, LLC, Atlanta, Georgia

Lisa Ollis, BS
Medical Neurogenetics, LLC, Atlanta, Georgia

Sara Kuoch, BS
Medical Neurogenetics, LLC, Atlanta, Georgia

Kevin Bennett, HT
Medical Neurogenetics, LLC, Atlanta, Georgia

Audra Aliberti, BS
Medical Neurogenetics, LLC, Atlanta, Georgia

Keith Hyland, PhD
Medical Neurogenetics, LLC, Atlanta, Georgia

Abstract

Autistic spectrum disorders encompass etiologically heterogeneous persons, with many genetic causes. A subgroup of these individuals has mitochondrial disease. Because a variety of metabolic disorders, including mitochondrial disease show regression with fever, a retrospective chart review was performed and identified 28 patients who met diagnostic criteria for autistic spectrum disorders and mitochondrial disease. Autistic regression occurred in 60.7% (17 of 28), a statistically significant increase over the general autistic spectrum disorder population (P < .0001). Of the 17 individuals with autistic regression, 70.6% (12 of 17) regressed with fever and 29.4% (5 of 17) regressed without identifiable linkage to fever or vaccinations.None showed regression with vaccination unless a febrile response was present. Although the study is small, a subgroup of patients with mitochondrial disease may be at risk of autistic regression with fever. Although recommended vaccinations schedules are appropriate in mitochondrial disease, fever management appears important for decreasing regression risk.

jcn.sagepub.com...

Guess what? ethyl-mercury is a mitochondrial toxin which can cause damage to mitochondrial dna, hence cause mitochondrial disease.

Thimerosal-Derived Ethylmercury Is a Mitochondrial Toxin in Human Astrocytes: Possible Role of Fenton Chemistry in the Oxidation and Breakage of mtDNA
Martyn A. Sharpe, * Andrew D. Livingston, and David S. Baskin
Department of Neurosurgery, The Methodist Hospital, 6565 Fannin Street, Houston, TX 77030, USA
*Martyn A. Sharpe: Email: gro.shmt@eprahsam
Academic Editor: Y. James Kang

Abstract

Thimerosal generates ethylmercury in aqueous solution and is widely used as preservative. We have investigated the toxicology of Thimerosal in normal human astrocytes, paying particular attention to mitochondrial function and the generation of specific oxidants. We find that ethylmercury not only inhibits mitochondrial respiration leading to a drop in the steady state membrane potential, but also concurrent with these phenomena increases the formation of superoxide, hydrogen peroxide, and Fenton/Haber-Weiss generated hydroxyl radical. These oxidants increase the levels of cellular aldehyde/ketones. Additionally, we find a five-fold increase in the levels of oxidant damaged mitochondrial DNA bases and increases in the levels of mtDNA nicks and blunt-ended breaks. Highly damaged mitochondria are characterized by having very low membrane potentials, increased superoxide/hydrogen peroxide production, and extensively damaged mtDNA and proteins. These mitochondria appear to have undergone a permeability transition, an observation supported by the five-fold increase in Caspase-3 activity observed after Thimerosal treatment.
...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Just wanted to chime in with my Kudos electricuniverse!!

This is a very well put together thread and is quite the appropriate response to the NLBS episode!

I have researched the vaccine debate for a while now and look forward to going over some of the material you have presented!

What worries me most about the pro-vaccine crowd, that is to say the extreme proponents of said crowd, is their criminal attack on sovereignty!

These people have been convinced that we ultimately do not own our own bodies and that being injected with "medicine" should not be a choice. This is a very dangerous angle to take!

It is my personal opinion that this issue will go down in history as one of the points in which people stood up and reclaimed their god given sovereignty!

BTW, aluminum (AI) used as an adjuvant is also a mitochondrial toxin, which like ethyl-mercury greatly increases the chances for a child/person to get mitochondrial disease, not to mention that it has also been found to cause inflammation, and oxydative stress, which have also been linked to autism and other neurological disorders.

Oxidative stress precedes mitochondrial dysfunction in gerbil brain after aluminum ingestion

Svetlana Vučetić-Arsića,
Nevena V. Radonjićb,
Marina Jovanovićc,
Vesna Selakovićc,
Tatjana Nikolićb,
Milica Velimirovićb,
Tihomir Stojkovićb,
Andjela Milovanovićd,
Jovica Milovanoviće,
Nataša D. Petronijevićb, , ,

a Special Hospital for Addictions, Teodora Drajzera 44, Belgrade, Serbia
b Institute of Clinical and Medical Biochemistry, School of Medicine, University of Belgrade, Pasterova 2, Belgrade, Serbia
c Military Medical Academy, Crnotravska 1, Belgrade, Serbia
d School of Medicine, University of Belgrade, Clinic for Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, Clinical Center of Serbia, Visegradska 26, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia
e School of Medicine, University of Belgrade, Institute of Otorhinolaryngology and Maxillofacial Surgery, Clinical Center of Serbia, Visegradska 26, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia

Received 11 October 2012, Revised 10 October 2013, Accepted 12 October 2013, Available online 23 October 2013

Abstract

Several studies suggest that aluminum (Al) intake might increase an individual's risk of developing Alzheimer disease.

The dynamic of changes in acetylcholinesterase (AChE), cytochrome c oxidase (COX), Complex I, superoxide dismutase (SOD) and catalase (CAT) activities, and the lipid peroxide (MDA), superoxide anion (O2−) and thiol (SH) group levels in gerbil's brain after aluminum ingestion were analyzed.

Gerbils that orally received aluminum chloride (LD25 or LD50) were sacrificed 2, 6 or 24 h later. Another group was subacutely treated (21 days; LD10). Controls received saline. Biochemical parameters were measured in cortex, hippocampus, thalamus and nucleus caudatus.

Two hours after acute Al exposure AChE activity and SH group content were decreased and MDA and O2− levels were elevated in all investigated brain structures. The changes of COX and CAT were structure specific. SOD was increased after 6 h. Changes of investigated parameters were also seen after subacute Al treatment.

These results might suggest the presence of additional source of free radicals in early phase of Al poisoning.
Keywords

Aluminum; Oxidative stress; Alzheimer's disease; Cytochrome c oxidase; Gerbils

www.sciencedirect.com...

Wei Sheng Yan Jiu. 2005 Nov;34(6):674-7.
[Effect of aluminum on neuronal mitochondria of rats].
[Article in Chinese]
Zhang QL1, Niu PY, Niu Q, Wang LP.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

To observe and explore the effect of aluminum on mitochondria in nerve cells of rats.
METHODS:

Nerve cells of new born rats (1-3 days) were cultured. Ultrastructure of mitochondria, cell death rate (CDR), reactive oxygen species (ROS), mitochondrial membrane potential (MMP) and MTF were performed to investigate the alteration of mitochondrial structure and functions in cultured nerve cells.
RESULTS:

Aluminum can impair the ultrastructure of cultured nerve cells of rats. Increased CDR, enhanced ROS, decreased MMP, and decreased activity of enzyme in mitochondria were investigated in the group of Al3+ 100 micromol/L and Al3+ 500 micromol/L.
CONCLUSION:

The present study shows that the alteration of mitochondrial structure and functions have played important roles in neurotoxic mechanism induced by aluminum.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Susceptibility of mitochondrial superoxide dismutase to aluminium induced oxidative damage

Vijay Kumara,
Amanjit Balb,
Kiran Dip Gilla, ,

a Department of Biochemistry, Postgraduate Institute of Medical Education and Research, Chandigarh 160012, India
b Department of Histopathology, Postgraduate Institute of Medical Education and Research, Chandigarh, India

Received 8 September 2008, Revised 1 October 2008, Accepted 1 October 2008, Available online 1 November 2008

Abstract

Aluminium has been implicated in various neurodegenerative diseases but exact mechanism of action is still not known. Mitochondria being a major site of reactive oxygen species production are considered to be target of oxidative stress and it seems that the oxidative damage to mitochondrial proteins may underlie the pathogenesis of aluminium induced neurodegeneration. Thus, the present study was undertaken to reveal the effects of chronic aluminium exposure (10 mg/kg b.wt, intragastrically for 12 weeks) on the oxidative damage to mitochondrial proteins in male albino Wistar rats. Chronic aluminium exposure resulted in decrease in the activity of mitochondrial superoxide dismutase (MnSOD) and aconitase in different regions of rat brain suggesting increased oxidative stress. This decrease in MnSOD activity in turn might be responsible for the increased protein oxidation as observed in our study. All these processes taken together may cause increased oxidative damage to mitochondrial proteins in general. By taking the advantage of recent immunochemical probe for oxidatively modified proteins, we identified MnSOD to be susceptible to oxidative damage in aluminium treated animals. The quantitative RT-PCR analysis for Lon protease, a protease involved in the removal of oxidatively modified proteins from mitochondria, showed decreased mRNA expression suggesting increased oxidative damage and decreased removal of mitochondrial proteins. The identification of specific proteins as targets of oxidative damage may provide new therapeutic measures to reverse the effects of aluminium induced neurodegeneration.

www.sciencedirect.com...

Aluminium-induced oxidative DNA damage recognition and cell-cycle disruption in different regions of rat brain

a reply to: elementalgrove

You are right. And the problem is no just the "herd mentality" by which we are told "everyone should be vaccinated", but also the unwillingness of the parties involved (CDC, FDA, vaccine manufacturers and other health officials) to admit that all vaccines are not as safe as they keep trying to claim they are.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

BTW, something else I wanted to mention about Wakefield and the charges that were brought against him. Is it really just a coincidence that his research was particularly into the MMR vaccine possibly causing autism and not that long ago we actually found out that Merck, the pharmaceutical giant has been found to have committed fraud and wrongdoing specifically with their MMR vaccine? In light of these new findings, it is my opinion that a truly unbiased, indeendent investigation should be made of Wakefield research.

As a side note, thanks to everyone who has responded so far and added content of discussion to this thread.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

One of the most laughable points in this whole discussion is that people cite the CDC/FDA/WHO and the pharmaceutical interests they represent as if they are unbiased and present unbiased research!

I have made this point time and time again, research the companies creating this "medicine" and then tell me again that I should trust their purchased science!

My go to example is always BAYER, you know the staple of the original pharma cartel known as IG FARBEN aka the NAZI's creation to further along their bat# insane idea of Eugenics, which they acquired from the "men who built america" crowd of psychopaths that are currently at the top of every modern day equivalent of BAYER ie... GSK, MERK, Bristol-Meyers, Pfizer, the list goes on.

Herd immunity! What a term!

Kind of sums up how these elitists see us, and to be honest the fact that so many "educated" individuals trumpet this nonsense is not really a good omen, in regards to proving them wrong!

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Bless you for making this thread and having the patience to gather all this info in one place. Like many here I was very disappointed with the NLBS approach of this topic; I never understood why people get so offended and/or defensive about this subject, instead of researching it a bit, for their own good. But nevertheless I prefer to let people make their own decisions, and live with them afterwards.

It's also refreshing to see a lot less BS being thrown in the mix because the facts presented are not so easy to "debunk".
I just wish I had more flags to give you for this thread.

Have a great day!

Like someone else said 'best thread ever'!
Don't want to repeat but Thank You! I really appreciate when someone puts so much effort into something as important as this.
Thank you again and keep up the good work aka exposing nlbs bs... know what I mean

Some interesting citations here that deserve a good look:

Let's take a look at an earlier study which found cases in which some children developed acute cerebral symptoms within a period of hours after the administration of pertussis vaccine.

This abstract refers to the whole cell pertussis vaccine and the smallpox vaccine. Whole cell pertussis vaccines were phased out in the 80s and 90s, and the smallpox vaccine has not been routinely used since the 1970s. It is not strong evidence that the current vaccination schedule is responsible for autism. Note that twice as many infants suffered from encephalopathy due to pertussis than to the vaccine--and note the vaccine caused a 157-fold reduction in pertussis cases. For that reason, it is likely that the vaccine reduced the overall encephalopathy burden, as it reduced the overall pertussis burden. Even the authors found it more "likely that babies are safer vaccinated than not." Later research validated that conclusion. A neurologist's 1988 review of the National Childhood Encephalopathy Study found causes other than vaccination for all of that study's encephalopathy cases. A 1994 case control study did not find statistically significant serious neurological effects associated with DTP. A 2006 case control study found no increased risk of encephalopathy following pertussis vaccination. (The same study also found no increased risk associated with MMR.) In any case, this vaccine is no longer used in developed countries, and the acellular vaccine is even safer. Something safer than "no increased risk" is a decreased risk.

As for smallpox, it has been eradicated and you don't get the vaccine unless you're going into a potential hot zone.

As you can see from the abstract above the link between vaccines and autism is far older than the research that Wakefield published.

The abstract said nothing about autism. Encephalopathy is not a sufficient condition for the development of autism. But if it were, the reduction in encephalopathy due to acellular pertussis vaccination would drive the overall incidence of autism down.

NLBS is exactly that.
I bet they had a good laugh creating that name, knowing they were going to spew exactly that. It is pure, intentional MSM crap. They throw the odd curveball NWO thing in there, but on the whole it is blubbering jibberfish.
ATS has been sold. Simple as that.

a reply to: Andromedabound

Science loses ground to pseudo-science because the latter seems to offer more comfort.

There’s another reason I think popularizing science is important, why I try to do it. It’s a foreboding I have — maybe ill-placed — of an America in my children’s generation, or my grandchildren’s generation, when all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when we’re a service and information-processing economy; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest even grasps the issues; when the people (by “the people” I mean the broad population in a democracy) have lost the ability to set their own agendas, or even to knowledgeably question those who do set the agendas; when there is no practice in questioning those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and religiously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in steep decline, unable to distinguish between what’s true and what feels good, we slide, almost without noticing, into superstition and darkness…

Can you guess who the above quotes are attributed to?...