The rich really -are- as bad as you think.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: KaDeCo

No, greed doesn't result in wealth. It's far more complicated than that.

A greedy person grabs all he can for himself and won't seek to risk it. It's his. A wealthy person actually has to risk his wealth in order to have a chance to make more. Many of the wealthiest people in our society came from nothing and had to risk everything to make it where they are.

Wholesale greed would have stopped them at any point in that process.

A greedy person will do whatever it takes to win, especially at the expense of other's. What they risk of their own to do so has no bearing on their level of greed.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

You can't end world hunger with our tax money. Where do you think most of our foreign aid money goes? If you think it actually goes to help the people of a nation and not straight into the pockets of the corrupt bureaucrats in charge of those hell holes ... whatever you're smoking, I want some.

Without completely overriding all other forms of governance and completely wiping out all human corruption, we will NEVER wipe out global hunger with our tax dollars.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

Your confusing greed with a competitive nature. A competitive nature is where you will do anything to win. I know, I have that myself.

Greed and a competitive nature do not have to coexist in the same person. I have one but not the other. People who are busy looking to have someone take from those who have to re-distribute to them have one but not the competitive nature.

a reply to: ketsuko

Oh please, they're no more at fault for that than any government. Stop anthropomorphizing. The problem lies with the people,

Ok blame the production line mechanic when your car fails

a reply to: ketsuko

I disagree to an extent. Look at companies that are considered morally bankrupt (Monsanto and Wal-Mart come to mind). The people running these companies (the rich ones) who make the decisions, base those off their moral values. Their companies then reflect those values. The companies that do 'care' are the result of the people and values they have. None come to mind as swiftly as the litany of businesses that are corrupt and just stinky. While the company itself cannot make ethical choices they do have moral and ethical values - as stated in their mission statement. Their 'vision'. A company itself cannot have those things either by your definition, but they do - because the people running them established them.

The same way people who run companies, enact policy, propose law, and other influential matters. If these people are coming from a mindset they have a right to everything - the results will reflect that.

So I guess I really do not understand your argument.

a reply to: ketsuko

My point was not that we should be trying to end world hunger with tax dollars, my point was that the amount of money is completely displaced on the spectrum, due to the largely inseparable concepts of Greed & Competition for wealth/gain/"resources".. If it were up to me, we wouldn't send a single dime anywhere in the world & have a totally closed border policy. None of this was my point or even worth discussing because it will obviously never happen.

No one is talking about "redistribution". The system is broken at its core; its a base & systemic issue. The only way to ever fix humanity is to eradicate it & start over.

a reply to: ketsuko

You're absolutely right, you can't tax your way out of this situation. But by the way, thanks to the tax-law if it did it wouldn't be the rich paying for it!

Source
Source
Source

Greed comes in many forms, money, power, etc. Competitive nature does not explain the behaviors listed either. Healthy competition is essential for free-market growth. However many of the rich (and their companies) simply eliminate any competition. John Oliver did a wonderful example of how this works with cable companies. This isn't all about greed. It's also about manipulation, lying, stealing, and cheating. I honestly suggest you call up the doctoral staff on these studies and talk to them about it. Many would be more than happy to speak to you about it.

originally posted by: Eunuchorn

originally posted by: nullafides

originally posted by: peck420

originally posted by: nullafides
The real problem, IMHO, is the human condition.

IMHO, the problem is the inability of the majority to accept the human condition, not the human condition itself.

And somehow you're able to separate that from the very condition and problem at hand ?

haha, yes, ignorance begets ignorance. Long term conditioning won, we lost. There's only one solution to the problem of the human condition & since no one else seems to want to eliminate our species....

I still stand that wanton & unwarranted wage disparity is the main reason society is falling apart; whether the innate desire for more (greed) is the root cause or not. More tax money is spent to maintain the prison industrial complex of America than it would take to end world hunger, & that's just tax money, not profits.

"Prosperity or egalitarianism - you have to choose. I favor freedom - you never achieve real equality anyway: you simply sacrifice prosperity for an illusion."

-Mario Vargas Llosa

a reply to: KaDeCo

And saying that the only people in the world who do these things are the rich is ignorant. Poor people are just as likely to engage in these behaviors.

It is people in general you are looking at. Status only makes the results exaggerated.

You could eliminate the rich tomorrow and these problems would still be with us because they are human problems. The only way to get rid of them is to get rid of ourselves.

Also, you do realize that many of these research professors are likely pulling about as much money the people in their little sad graphic?

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: Eunuchorn

originally posted by: nullafides

originally posted by: peck420

originally posted by: nullafides
The real problem, IMHO, is the human condition.

IMHO, the problem is the inability of the majority to accept the human condition, not the human condition itself.

And somehow you're able to separate that from the very condition and problem at hand ?

haha, yes, ignorance begets ignorance. Long term conditioning won, we lost. There's only one solution to the problem of the human condition & since no one else seems to want to eliminate our species....

I still stand that wanton & unwarranted wage disparity is the main reason society is falling apart; whether the innate desire for more (greed) is the root cause or not. More tax money is spent to maintain the prison industrial complex of America than it would take to end world hunger, & that's just tax money, not profits.

"Prosperity or egalitarianism - you have to choose. I favor freedom - you never achieve real equality anyway: you simply sacrifice prosperity for an illusion."

-Mario Vargas Llosa

Everything we know is derived from the idea of "economy". I think economies shoulnt exist, thus deciding between prosperity & egalitarianism is an illusion in & of itself.

Birth > school > job > family > death.
What about that cycle is appealing?

a reply to: ketsuko

I never said only rich people do this. I am saying that I tend to believe they are much more likely to, and that is because of many ongoing studies (which I am assuming you didn't bother reading). That this behavior (low ethical standing, lying, stealing candy meant for kids, etc) is directly linked to wealth. (See original post). It is linked to wealth because of the outlook the individual has on the world. The more wealthy an individual is, the more likely they are to feel entitled. Entitlement then colors their mindset that they have the right to do things most of us do not. So ya, poor people - according to these studies ARE less likely to do these things or be 'jerks' than rich people.

Understanding this mindset is the first step in combating the problem.

I have a feeling you only like to post to argue.

It is linked to wealth because of the outlook the individual has on the world. The more wealthy an individual is, the more likely they are to feel entitled.

a reply to: KaDeCo

I think what you really mean is opportunity. The rich have more opportunity to be bad.

If you are in the first world and you dont feel entitled there is something wrong

While I feel something is a little off at the very upper, controlling levels, of society, being a jerk is pretty universal.

But whoever decided a single parent made $260000 a year does much damage to our culture. I was in the exact same position as that cartoon mom but lived on $13000 a year, just over half of that being tax credits. It was miserable so if I had made what she did, I'd sure as hell look a lot happier If the people in power buy into this nonsense claim they won't even believe poverty exists, which is a huge problem.

I personally think class warfare is rampant as two (that I know of) homeless people in Canada have been doused in gas and set alight in the past year or so. Who does that? Crazy folk for sure but devaluing the needy has been culturally accepted for a long time.

I remember my middle class grandparents in Scotland arguing over wether or not to let a man into their house during a wicked storm... he was trying to write a cheque, for a car the grandparents were selling, in pouring rain so heavy his pen wouldn't work. The argument was based on his "workie" clothes and their perceived idea of his "values" They believed that people were of a certain quality based on their station in life that was fixed in stone like India's caste system. They were torn between not trusting the "lower" classes which they deemed ran rampant with vice and while idolizing the "upper" classes, never feeling worthy. All sad and unnecessary.

Sorry to rant in your thread but the idea of burning homeless people alive (on cbc news again today )for some sick sport..... I have no words that won't get me banned.

a reply to: igloo

The story of your grandparents is telling. This has been an issue since the Israelites if not before.

originally posted by: jude11
a reply to: KaDeCo

Just wondering if these are being reported as middle class?

Single parent $260,000

Single person $230,000

Married couple $640,000

Retired couple $180,000

If this is middle class, sign me up!

Peace

We could even do with more jobs in the $40-$65 k range... even more salary jobs... many people that are now working at Wal-Mart could have had a salary job in the past.

O.P., I am impressed with your post, good job and nice researching

I found that infographic about the middle-class ridiculous. Even doctors make near the bottom of that.

There was a study done here a couple of years ago(I'll have to search it out).where it was shown a majority of rich people are psychopaths, especially people on top companies boards. This also showed in the majority of self made millionaires.
They have the same psychological make up as murderers ie no empathy, a win at all costs but really mean with it. So technically they are mentally wired wrong but because non of their actions aren't illegal we have to live with them.

originally posted by: peck420

originally posted by: nullafides
The real problem, IMHO, is the human condition.

IMHO, the problem is the inability of the majority to accept the human condition, not the human condition itself.

Excuse the pun, but you are right on the money there.
I think the rich amongst us that are able to understand there own "human condition" are actually the most likely to give a lot of their wealth away.

Nature, survival of the fittest, evolution, competitive genealogy fits in well with the world's capitalist agenda, and can only promote "jerkish" behaviour from some of the wealthy IMHO.

I have a good idea. Cancel the Oscars. And any celebrity awards ceremony that promotes spending obscene amounts of money for a hand made dress or suit or jewelry. Who cares if a person who pretends to be someone else receives a piece of metal to commemorate their success? This isn't t-ball or little league. These trophy's are bragging rights for being the best fake person you can be. The amount of money these people spend collectively could help so many people. Instead 40 million people sit in front of their televisions to gawk at the least entertaining and noneducational form of entertainment. That means 40 million people are VOTING for this to happen.

Who cares if rich people are rich. It's the stupid things they spend with their money that can ultimately be used for the greater good. If you have the money for a million dollar watch, why not instead donate that to a town for renovation, or road repairs, or to local businesses?

you act as if poor people dont possess those same qualities. some people figure it out, some people don't life isn't fair. you cannot legislate life to be fair. I don't understand why that is a concept that's so hard to understand.