Russian newspaper claims to have an official strategy document.

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: JiggyPotamus

Nice analysis of the situation! I believe Russia sends TVs i.e. "trained volunteers" to Ukraine. These are not regular or enlisted military men. These are civilians given military training aka nearly as good as soldiers. Also, found that these are scantly armed and protected. Do not see these NAF guys with body armor or even a helmet. This goes to the fact that soldiers are used as cannon fodder in Russian military thinking..............even now!

Three times in Ukraine war, Russia has sent in its regular forces and they immediately made the difference. First time in Iloviask, second time at the airport and third time in Debaltsevo. Spetsnaz from FSB and other departments are always in the rear 24x7 directing the tactics. Tankers/artillery/snipers are not regular also but TVs, until the regular RF units are sent in the situations like mentioned above.

It is the NAF that does the dirty work first and the RF units play the decisive role. Strategy is similar to cold war battle plans. Send in Bulgarians, Czechs, Polish etc. against NATO first.............bleed and exhaust them........then Soviet forces conduct the final punch and break the adversary.

Russia is still afraid of more economic sanctions and that is why is not conducting full scale invasion. However, the moment, DC and Brussles start to give lethal weapons to Ukes, the RF forces will go full throttle and reach Kiev in two weeks using everything in the kitty except the WMDs.

West knows this and that is why is hesitating in providing weapons to Ukes. Kremlin will also do the same to US in other global set ups and it will not be pretty for western interests.

You live in a dream world don't you. No one in the west is afraid of Russian military most of them have inadequate training since there on a 1 year enlistment. Most of the weapons they have in there infantry are cold war relics. Canada is considering arming Ukraine just them alone could turn the tide that's why Ukraine is begging the Canadians.Now if the US were to send in systems Russia would lose here's why. The Moment the US starts shipping heavy weapons along comes special forces to train them in there use.

The reason Ukraine is losing is there fighting the Russians The same way they fight.I mean look who trained them Problem is they can't win that way they have to learn how to fight using rapid response units. And keep moving no one digs trenches anymore but Ukraine and Russia do its all they know. Put alot of people on a line and keep shooting.

a reply to: dragonridr

In Georgia 2008, Russians defeated the US trained and armed Georgian Military in comprehensive manner. They had 64 KIA in roughly 5 days. Russia's 58th Army is in no way elite formation although VDVs arrived very quickly and were a big part of the formations.

In overall, the Russian military in terms of quality is no match against the US, no doubt. But to write off Russia as if it is some outdated third world force would be a very expensive lesson for anyone.

There was a serious discussion in Czech recently by Tim Snyder some geopolitics professor from US. He said that there are less than 50K soldiers in Russia with worthwhile fighting skills. That means he was saying that other than VDVs rest of the Russian army is just cheap peanut grade. That is a hog wash. Even the TVs from NAF have proved to be good fighters and more so due to fact that they do not have all the big and small weapons that RF regulars would fight with.

Also, aviation is a big part of US military strategy. Anyone who can even partially hold off USAF from the scene can give a serious and expensive match up.

a reply to: victor7

Problem is its about an 80 to 20 mix. 20 percent of Russian army is well trained the rest well mostly conscripts. Even is say western armies enlistments are usually 4 yrs for a reason. Two of them are taken up trying to train them to where they need to be. With conscripts there nothing more than bodies Russian tactics hasn't changed all that much from Ww2 through alot of bodies and hope to overwhelm the enemy.

This is why you don't want to slug it out with them toe to toe. Your casualties will be enormous look at russian Weapons they are designed to attack mass groups the grad for example point them in a direction release alot of rockets and hope they hit. More often than not some stray off course and blow something else up.

And oddly funny you should mention Georgia that accusation came out of russia general staff. The Georgians were having success on the battlefield and made the claim the UK was supplying small arms and I want to say Isreal wss accused of droans.and the US supposedly sent 150 trainers to a base in georgia.Trust me if heavy arms get sent you'll be talking thousands of special ops from pilots on down. Don't rule out the fact that they would teach them how to take out anti aircraft batteries and the planes are back on the game.

Now I never said Russian military is a third world force what I said is they are not as well trained as the west and they have no idea how to fight western style combat.The west has moved to speed and acu racy as they say run and gun. They move quickly and don't give the enemy time to stack up a force they trap kill and behind your lines before you can respond.

If Ukraine learned tanks aren't just artillery with wheels that alone changes things. Ukraine is well stupid they roll tanks in park them fire and wait for artillery to range them and there gone No more tanks.what they should be doing is racing to this artillery units and making them wish they stayed in Russia.

a reply to: victor7

You can spend all the money in the world to update your military and make it state of the art. All that effort goes to waste if you don't change your military doctrines to go along with it.

From what we have seen of Russian action thus far its evident they have not changed their doctrines. They are still using plays out of the old soviet book.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Russian government establishments including military are hampered by corruption and embezzlement. Very hard to modernize established structures that way.

Another major issue with culture in Eastern Europe is the abject disregard for the value of human life.........both of adversary and more of one's own foot soldiers. Porky's lingering on to Debaltsevo is one example where any orderly and agreed retreat would have saved lives and physical welfare of 100s of soldiers.

What happened in the end? Porky's men had to leave but with truck loads of injured and dead also in the tow. NAF on the otherhand was quick to give up Slaviansk earlier in the war and retreat with its men and machines intact.

When disregard for human life is low then old Soviet "full frontal" infantry assaults are common ways of saying hello to the adversary on the battle maps.

a reply to: victor7

Let me clear something up for you since you and others cant seem to comprehend it.

If citizens of a country take up arms and attack the government, they are no longer civilians and are legitimate military targets. Its compounded when those individuals are not even citizens of the nation they are attacking and its further compounded when they are provided support - militarily, economically - to continue their attacks.

You and others constantly accuse Kiev of killing civilians while you intentionally ignore the civilian deaths caused by the terrorists / Russian forces. The cities under government control come under attack from the outside. They are shelled / attacked until the kiev forces back out. That means the bulk of the damage and civilian casualties come from the actions of the terrorists / Russians trying to take the city.

Putin is the worse thing to happen to Russia since Stalin and Putin is pushing Russia back down that failed path. If Putin decides he is invincible and goes after one of the Baltic nations his term as President, and Russia as we know it, are done.


If your so concerned about peace then demand Putin stop and step down. Absent that any deaths caused by Putins actions are on his hands and anyone who follows / supports him.

a reply to: Xcathdra

You and others constantly accuse Kiev of killing civilians while you intentionally ignore the civilian deaths caused by the terrorists / Russian forces.

We just can`t forget the past...

The Kosovo War was an armed conflict in Kosovo that lasted from 28 February 1998 until 11 June 1999. It was fought by the forces of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, (by this time, consisting of the Republics of Montenegro and Serbia) which controlled Kosovo before the war, and the Kosovo Albanian rebel group known as the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) with air support from the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO), (from 24th March 1999), and ground support from the Albanian army.

Source

On 19 March 2011, a multi-state coalition began a military intervention in Libya to implement United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973. The United Nations Intent and Voting was to have "an immediate ceasefire in Libya, including an end to the current attacks against civilians, which it said might constitute crimes against humanity" ... "imposing a ban on all flights in the country's airspace – a no-fly zone – and tightened sanctions on the Qadhafi regime and its supporters." The resolution was taken in response to events during the Libyan Civil War, and military operations began, with American and British naval forces firing over 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles, the French Air Force, British Royal Air Force, and Royal Canadian Air Force undertaking sorties across Libya and a naval blockade by Coalition forces. Air strikes against Libyan Army tanks and vehicles by French jets were since confirmed.The official names for the interventions by the coalition members are Opération Harmattan by France; Operation Ellamy by the United Kingdom; Operation Mobile for the Canadian participation and Operation Odyssey Dawn for the United States.

Source

...and the hypocrisy surrounding it.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
We just can`t forget the past...

No, but you want to.

Morale was a serious problem for Serb forces; intelligence surveys found that many soldiers disagreed with their comrades' actions. One tank commander reported, "for the entire time I was in Kosovo, I never saw an enemy soldier and my unit was never once involved in firing at enemy targets. The tanks which cost $2.5 million each were used to slaughter Albanian children... I am ashamed

Hardly the same situation.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

But, but, but RT told me there have been shelling from innocent civilians going on in Eastern Ukraine.

a reply to: Xcathdra

So, what you are saying is because they do not back down and totally hand over the reigns of the entire world to USA and its Corporate Stakeholders everything in the world is Crap ??

Geee if only everyone would just surrender now , because we want to be clear, that is the ONLY GOAL, right? World Domination ??

a reply to: ParasuvO

So any country that doesn't want to be dominated by Russia is part of some global US conspiracy and so Russia is free to invade any country that chooses to not be under Russia's thumb?

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien

We just can`t forget the past...

Apparently you have considering Kosovo is nothing like the issue currently going on in Ukraine. the ONLY connection the 2 incidents have are Russian fingerprints all over the violence.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
...and the hypocrisy surrounding it.

What you are trying to portray as hypocrisy is in fact ignorance. Kosovo and Ukraine have nothing in common and Russia making the claim and you and the others repeating it still do not make the claim true.

Claim: The cases of Kosovo and Crimea are identical

Fact: The Kosovo operation was conducted following exhaustive discussion involving the whole international community dealing with a long-running crisis.

Following the operation, the international community engaged in nearly ten years of diplomacy, under UN authority, to find a political solution and to settle Kosovo's final status, as prescribed by UNSCR 1244.

In Crimea, there was no pre-existing crisis, no attempt to discuss the situation with the Ukrainian government, no involvement of the United Nations, and no attempt at a negotiated solution.

In Kosovo, international attempts to find a solution took over 3,000 days. In Crimea, Russia annexed part of Ukraine's territory in less than 30 days.

Claim: Russia's annexation of Crimea was justified by the opinion of the International Court of Justice on the independence of Kosovo (online herehere).

Fact: The court stated that their opinion was not a precedent. The court said they had been given a "narrow and specific" question about Kosovo's independence which would not cover the broader legal consequences of that decision.

Since you guys cant get this info right either I will post it... again

Claim: The Ukrainian authorities are illegitimate

Fact: Ukraine's President Poroshenko was elected on 25 May with a clear majority in a vote which the OSCE characterized (report here) as showing the "clear resolve of the authorities to hold what was a genuine election largely in line with international commitments and with a respect for fundamental freedoms." The only areas where serious restrictions were reported were those controlled by separatists, who undertook "increasing attempts to derail the process."

The current parliament was elected on 26 October in a vote which the OSCE characterized (report here) as "an amply contested election that offered voters real choice, and a general respect for fundamental freedoms". It again pointed out that "Electoral authorities made resolute efforts to organize elections throughout the country, but they could not be held in parts of the regions (oblasts) of Donetsk and Luhansk or on the Crimean peninsula".

Finally, Russian officials continue to allege that the Ukrainian parliament and government are dominated by "Nazis" and "fascists." However, in the parliamentary elections, the parties whom Russia labelled as "fascists" fell far short of the threshold of 5% needed to enter parliament. Ukraine's electorate clearly voted for unity and moderation, not separatism or extremism, and the composition of the parliament reflects that.

In short, the President and parliament are legitimate, the actions of the separatists were not.

NATO - Russian relations claims and various accusations


as for your continued misrepresentation of what occurred in Libya -
UNSC 1973

As always NATO was not the lead agency and operated in a support function to some of the operations in Libya. Something you conveniently and consistently leave out of your propaganda. Action taken by a member state of NATO does NOT mean its operating as NATO, again something you fail to understand.

Western / European nations were not the only nations involved, although reading your BS it makes it sound like it is. Russia abstained from voting for the resolution and that is on them. As a permanent member Russia can veto these resolutions yet failed to do so. why?
Russias attempt to drag out the conflict to work it in there favor by throwing Libyan civilians under the Ghadaffi bus -

The representatives of China and the Russian Federation, explaining their abstentions, prioritized peaceful means of resolving the conflict and said that many questions had not been answered in regard to provisions of the resolution, including, as the Russian representative put it, how and by whom the measures would be enforced and what the limits of the engagement would be. He said the resolution included a sorely needed ceasefire, which he had called for earlier.

China also abstained... why?

China had not blocked the action with a negative vote in consideration of the wishes of the Arab League and the African Union, its representative said.

Maybe you should spend time researching and learning an less time repeating Kremlin talking points, which have been proven to be chalked full of omission, lies and double talk tow work it in their favor. Just like they are trying to do in Ukraine.

Way to remain on topic though. Now that your claims have been disproven as false how about we get back to Russian lies in Ukraine.

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: DanielJacksonKree

Yes, I too would love to see Russia invade more countries. We can really rack up a good death count, make Stalin proud.

Russia/Crimea = 0 deaths 0 casualties, no shots fired.

US/middle east = ? Estimated to be up in the hundreds of thousands, that's just the deaths.

I would take Russia "invading" any day over America "freeing" a country.

How do you know that there have been no shots fired or 0 death? Because Russia told you so?

www.rferl.org...

a reply to: Bearack

Are we now going to use CIA psych ops ?

They were founded as an anti-communist news source in 1949 by the National Committee for a Free Europe, as part of a large-scale Psychological Operation during the Cold War. RFE/RL received funds from the Central Intelligence Agency until 1972. During the earliest years of Radio Free Europe's existence, the CIA and the U.S. Department of State issued broad policy directives, and a system evolved where broadcast policy was determined through negotiation among the CIA, the U.S. State Department, and RFE staff.

Source

a reply to: Xcathdra

If Putin decides he is invincible and goes after one of the Baltic nations his term as President, and Russia as we know it, are done.

Putin and Russia will attack Baltics if NATO places its BMDs there. Have no doubts about it. Then we will see who stays around. Russia has been through mega challenges in its history and came out winners. US on otherhand has been pretty much unscathed toying with third world nations. One hard jolt to the US and it is more likely to dissapper into the oblivion. Those who can't even hold together their families will not have much standing power when times go tough.

And the reporters mysteriously disappear in 3...2...1...

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: Xcathdra

If Putin decides he is invincible and goes after one of the Baltic nations his term as President, and Russia as we know it, are done.

Putin and Russia will attack Baltics if NATO places its BMDs there. Have no doubts about it. Then we will see who stays around. Russia has been through mega challenges in its history and came out winners. US on otherhand has been pretty much unscathed toying with third world nations. One hard jolt to the US and it is more likely to dissapper into the oblivion. Those who can't even hold together their families will not have much standing power when times go tough.

Yes Russian families wrestle bears before breakfast are you serious?? Economically or militarily Russia is no match for the US. They have states with a higher GDP than Russia. And spend far more than Russia could ever hope for on military.Short of launching nukes Russia cant hurt the US in any meaningful way and Putin knows it.That's why he's doing the stealth invasion. If he was stronger he would have just sent his troops in and taken Ukraine but he knows that would put US forces on the ground there. As long as Obama can deny it's not an invasion Obama can allow Europe to handle it. The Obama administration wants nothing to do with Ukraine. Bottom line there is no US intrest there and he's sees it as a European problem.

a reply to: ZordonMV

...the Ukraine !

What did I win ?

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: DanielJacksonKree

Yes, I too would love to see Russia invade more countries. We can really rack up a good death count, make Stalin proud.

Russia/Crimea = 0 deaths 0 casualties, no shots fired.

US/middle east = ? Estimated to be up in the hundreds of thousands, that's just the deaths.

I would take Russia "invading" any day over America "freeing" a country.

Hitler never fired a shot when he annexed Austria and Chekoslovakia, Sudeten land etc either.
Spose that means you would want Him too?

a reply to: earthling42

That makes a hell of a lot of sense..!! NATO and the US found out about it and as soon as this op got green-lighted by Putin the Alliance took the required steps, according to standard protocol, to see this did not go anywhere.

In an effort not to be limited to just one source. I, from time to time, check out the veterans today site just to see what they are up to, and to my dismay I read stuff that is just plain anti-patriotic coming from an American veterans-affairs advocate website. They seem to glorify what Russia is and stands for, I am quite irritated about these people writing trash about our foreign policy. It may not be evident to many of us what the ultimate goal is, for obvious strategic planning reasons, but that does not mean our military planers do not know what they are doing. Europe is as much a part of us as it is Mexico. Our economy depends on theirs as much as theirs depend on ours and "I'll be damn if I'll second guess what they are doing"

The site contends we are the oppressor and instigating force in this conflict when in fact we are just doing what we said we would do if a scenario like this ever presented itself.

I am convinced that if the most beautiful country in the world, needless to say The United States of America, weren't around, what is left of the Soviet Union would have absorbed the whole western Europe long time ago.

So I say, let the planers plan, the writers write as it has always been. Let us just not let Russia take anymore of the Ukraine today because otherwise it will be the whole of Western Europe tomorrow.