Next Level BS #38: Water Fluoridation, The Facts, The Crazy, and the Reality

originally posted by: mal1970

originally posted by: Son of Will
What, another load of complete BS from Next Level BS?

I have to admit, when I first heard of that show, I wondered whether it was satire. Nope. BUT - it's so sloppy, so amateurish, the conclusions they reach are almost exclusively wrong (And I mean easily demonstrated to be wrong), their methods of parsing good information from bad information are based on "Who's the most ridiculous person promoting the conspiracy I'm trying to debunk?" - it's so poorly done, that it ultimately does come across as satire. I just don't think the people involved are aware of that, funnily.

(What happened to ATS?)

Bingo! When I joined AST some 6 years ago (after having been just a reader for a few years) I wasn't as critical. The more I looked into things the more I realized this site "dedicated to denying ignorance" has an agenda, or at least a SEVERE collectivist lean. NLBS has been pretty much dead wrong on so many topics it really is a parody. I mostly come here now to laugh at the all the stupid people "denying ignorance" while drinking their fluoride & taking their shots. I have to laugh to keep from crying... they are just, so, clueless, it boggles the mind. But, they are winning, and in a few generations we'll have THIS. We're half way there already.

Prove it wrong or don't, I starred your post because it seems like that is the reason for your comment, otherwise why comment saying something is wrong without backing it up and laughing at us "stupid people"?

originally posted by: Son of Will
the conclusions they reach are almost exclusively wrong (And I mean easily demonstrated to be wrong), their methods of parsing good information from bad information are based on "Who's the most ridiculous person promoting the conspiracy I'm trying to debunk?"

Only a small percentage of the videos actually attempt to debunk accepted conspiracies. Of the nine showing in the site wrapper ad right now, only three could be classified as debunking popular conspiracies -- even then, it's a rather soft debunking.

How are you coming to your conclusion?

We at Making Sense of Fluoride made our own video to debunk some of the misinformation and show what the science says.



Enjoy.

originally posted by: MSoFluoride
We at Making Sense of Fluoride made our own video to debunk some of the misinformation and show what the science says.

Enjoy.

Thanks for making the video. Perhaps you could make a summary/synopsis of the video along with your platform.

Why the need for putting fluoride in the water when it's in toothpaste? If you include fluoridated toothpaste on top of drinking fluoride -- how many ppm is that dose on a daily basis? Above 4ppm?

"Thanks for making the video. Perhaps you could make a summary/synopsis of the video along with your platform."
Yeah I'll have a look into that.

"Why the need for putting fluoride in the water when it's in toothpaste?"
Fluoridation complements brushing ones teeth, it isn't meant to replace it. Consumption of fluoridated food and water enables transfer of fluoride to saliva and biofilms on the teeth. This fluoride, together with calcium and phosphate on the saliva, reduces acid attack on the teeth and so helps prevent tooth decay. Because fluoride concentrations in saliva decrease within an hour or so after brushing, fluoridated water complements use of fluoridated toothpaste. Our teeth are in more regular contact with food and water than they are with toothpaste.

Buzalaf et al. (2011) reports:
“More than 60 years of intensive research attest to the safety and effectiveness of this measure to control caries. In this case, however, it should be emphasized that despite being classified as a ‘systemic’ method of fluoride delivery (as it involves ingestion of fluoride), the mechanism of action of fluoridated water to control caries is mainly through its topical contact with the teeth while in the oral cavity or when redistributed to the oral environment by means of saliva. Since fluoridated water is consumed many times a day, the high frequency of contact of fluoride present in the water with the tooth structure or intraoral fluoride reservoirs helps to explain why water fluoridation is so effective in controlling caries, despite having fluoride concentrations much lower than fluoride toothpaste, for example. This general concept can be applied to all methods of fluoride use traditionally classified as ‘systemic’. In the light of the current knowledge regarding the mechanisms by which fluoride control caries, this system of classification is in fact misleading”.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Featherstone (2000) also demonstrated that:
“The cariostatic effects of fluoride are, in part, related to the sustained presence of low concentrations of ionic fluoride in the oral environment, derived from foods and beverages, drinking water and fluoride-containing dental products such as toothpaste. Prolonged and slightly elevated low concentrations of fluoride in the saliva and plaque fluid decrease the rate of enamel demineralization and enhance the rate of remineralization”.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

The main benefit is from topical application but systemic ingestion still plays a role. Buzalaf et al. (2011) also states that:
“Evidence also supports fluoride’s systemic mechanism of caries inhibition in pit and fissure surfaces of permanent first molars when it is incorporated into these teeth pre-eruptively”.

Quality studies continue to show fluoridation to be effective today. Newbrun (1989), Brunelle & Carlos (1990) and Griffin et al. (2007) have proven water fluoridation continues to be effective in reducing dental decay by 20-40%.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
jdr.sagepub.com...

"how many ppm is that dose on a daily basis? Above 4ppm?"
Simply put, water is fluoridated at 0.7 mg/liter (ppm=mg/liter). Thus, for every liter of fluoridated water consumed, the “dose” of fluoride intake is 0.7 mg. The average daily water consumption by an adult is 2-3 liters per day. So, let’s go to an extreme and double that to an excessive 6 liters of fluoridated water consumption per day. This translates to 4.2 mg “dose” of fluoride intake per day from the water. The CDC estimates that of the total daily intake, or “dose”, of fluoride from all sources including dental products, 75% is from the water. Thus as 4.2 mg is 75% if the total daily intake from all sources, the total daily intake, or “dose” from all sources would be 5.6 mg for an individual who consumed an excessive 6 liters of fluoridated water per day.

The Institute of Medicine has established that the daily upper limit for fluoride intake from all sources, for adults, before adverse effects will occur, short or long-term, is 10 mg. Thus, even the excessive 6 liter per day consumer of water will still only take in a daily “dose” of fluoride that is slightly more than half the upper limit before adverse effects.

The range of safety between the miniscule few parts per million fluoride that are added to existing fluoride levels in your water, is so wide that “dose” is not an issue. Before the UL of 10 mg could be reached, water toxicity would be the concern, not fluoride.

Hope that helps.

-Dan

originally posted by: MSoFluoride
"Thanks for making the video. Perhaps you could make a summary/synopsis of the video along with your platform."
Yeah I'll have a look into that.

"Why the need for putting fluoride in the water when it's in toothpaste?"
Fluoridation complements brushing ones teeth, it isn't meant to replace it. Consumption of fluoridated food and water enables transfer of fluoride to saliva and biofilms on the teeth. This fluoride, together with calcium and phosphate on the saliva, reduces acid attack on the teeth and so helps prevent tooth decay. Because fluoride concentrations in saliva decrease within an hour or so after brushing, fluoridated water complements use of fluoridated toothpaste. Our teeth are in more regular contact with food and water than they are with toothpaste.

Buzalaf et al. (2011) reports:
“More than 60 years of intensive research attest to the safety and effectiveness of this measure to control caries. In this case, however, it should be emphasized that despite being classified as a ‘systemic’ method of fluoride delivery (as it involves ingestion of fluoride), the mechanism of action of fluoridated water to control caries is mainly through its topical contact with the teeth while in the oral cavity or when redistributed to the oral environment by means of saliva. Since fluoridated water is consumed many times a day, the high frequency of contact of fluoride present in the water with the tooth structure or intraoral fluoride reservoirs helps to explain why water fluoridation is so effective in controlling caries, despite having fluoride concentrations much lower than fluoride toothpaste, for example. This general concept can be applied to all methods of fluoride use traditionally classified as ‘systemic’. In the light of the current knowledge regarding the mechanisms by which fluoride control caries, this system of classification is in fact misleading”.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Featherstone (2000) also demonstrated that:
“The cariostatic effects of fluoride are, in part, related to the sustained presence of low concentrations of ionic fluoride in the oral environment, derived from foods and beverages, drinking water and fluoride-containing dental products such as toothpaste. Prolonged and slightly elevated low concentrations of fluoride in the saliva and plaque fluid decrease the rate of enamel demineralization and enhance the rate of remineralization”.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

The main benefit is from topical application but systemic ingestion still plays a role. Buzalaf et al. (2011) also states that:
“Evidence also supports fluoride’s systemic mechanism of caries inhibition in pit and fissure surfaces of permanent first molars when it is incorporated into these teeth pre-eruptively”.

Quality studies continue to show fluoridation to be effective today. Newbrun (1989), Brunelle & Carlos (1990) and Griffin et al. (2007) have proven water fluoridation continues to be effective in reducing dental decay by 20-40%.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
jdr.sagepub.com...

"how many ppm is that dose on a daily basis? Above 4ppm?"
Simply put, water is fluoridated at 0.7 mg/liter (ppm=mg/liter). Thus, for every liter of fluoridated water consumed, the “dose” of fluoride intake is 0.7 mg. The average daily water consumption by an adult is 2-3 liters per day. So, let’s go to an extreme and double that to an excessive 6 liters of fluoridated water consumption per day. This translates to 4.2 mg “dose” of fluoride intake per day from the water. The CDC estimates that of the total daily intake, or “dose”, of fluoride from all sources including dental products, 75% is from the water. Thus as 4.2 mg is 75% if the total daily intake from all sources, the total daily intake, or “dose” from all sources would be 5.6 mg for an individual who consumed an excessive 6 liters of fluoridated water per day.

The Institute of Medicine has established that the daily upper limit for fluoride intake from all sources, for adults, before adverse effects will occur, short or long-term, is 10 mg. Thus, even the excessive 6 liter per day consumer of water will still only take in a daily “dose” of fluoride that is slightly more than half the upper limit before adverse effects.

The range of safety between the miniscule few parts per million fluoride that are added to existing fluoride levels in your water, is so wide that “dose” is not an issue. Before the UL of 10 mg could be reached, water toxicity would be the concern, not fluoride.

Hope that helps.

-Dan

Thanks for the response with details. I'm not exactly a fan of additives in my water I don't know about and am still a skeptic on water fluoridation.

If humans get fluoride from food and toothpaste, then the additional component of fluoride in drinking water seems to add up to potentially a lot.

So it's admitted there is fluoride in food. What about food/produce that is grown using fluoridated water? Does that mean there is the possibility of produce with high amounts of fluoride in it? On top of toothpaste and water fluoridation, does that mean there is the possibility for long term skeletal fluorosis? Any studies on people living their lives on a full regiment of government mandated water fluoridation, fluoridated food, and fluoridated toothpaste?

If the overall long term goal is health (in this case the stated target seems tooth health) -- then why not add vitamins and minerals to the water supply? It seems to make sense in the case of public health to add all the nutrients to the water supply that people cannot manage to do themselves. May as well forcibly vaccinate everyone as well. It seems like this is more of the crux of the argument - individual freedom.

rat poison,

i use tooth paste without fluoride which i buy through Internet.

originally posted by: UNKNOWNPURPLE
rat poison,

i use tooth paste without fluoride which i buy through Internet.

If you are worried about fluoride, here are more things to worry about.

This is another reason why I only drink distilled water.

Flouride, bleach, calcium, beef & pork, and metals in your diet keeps your body busy processing those into #, along with pornography and your pineal gland, sixth chakra has no mojo to go, joe. There is at least a full "sense" being filtered out via these items in your diet. Don't realize chakras are as real as your flesh and bones? Go learn something, Western boy.

If you buy the official story and think you need fluoride. It is available in tooth paste. Just don't take everyone else down your bumpy road.

originally posted by: Forrester7
This is another reason why I only drink distilled water.

I drink RO water. Now add Himalayan salt to your diet to replace the trace minerals.

I grew up in Phoenix AZ in the 60+ and they started heavy fluoride early... Got great teeth...hehe

BTW I think most drink bottle water so unless you plan on drinking local water plan on reverse osmosis or move to a city that does not do it. I have no problem with it.

originally posted by: superman2012

originally posted by: mal1970

originally posted by: Son of Will
What, another load of complete BS from Next Level BS?

I have to admit, when I first heard of that show, I wondered whether it was satire. Nope. BUT - it's so sloppy, so amateurish, the conclusions they reach are almost exclusively wrong (And I mean easily demonstrated to be wrong), their methods of parsing good information from bad information are based on "Who's the most ridiculous person promoting the conspiracy I'm trying to debunk?" - it's so poorly done, that it ultimately does come across as satire. I just don't think the people involved are aware of that, funnily.

(What happened to ATS?)

Bingo! When I joined AST some 6 years ago (after having been just a reader for a few years) I wasn't as critical. The more I looked into things the more I realized this site "dedicated to denying ignorance" has an agenda, or at least a SEVERE collectivist lean. NLBS has been pretty much dead wrong on so many topics it really is a parody. I mostly come here now to laugh at the all the stupid people "denying ignorance" while drinking their fluoride & taking their shots. I have to laugh to keep from crying... they are just, so, clueless, it boggles the mind. But, they are winning, and in a few generations we'll have THIS. We're half way there already.

Prove it wrong or don't, I starred your post because it seems like that is the reason for your comment, otherwise why comment saying something is wrong without backing it up and laughing at us "stupid people"?

Flouride used in the USA and Canada, are industrial waste from China.
Believe it.