Prescription pets, it's getting out of hand now.

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: baddmove

I wonder if you might be helped by having a pet -- perhaps a reptile of some sort.

You should read the thread too..

I have pets and I love the little guys, it's not about me hating on pets....

In addition to their reasonable accommodation obligations under the FHAct and Section 504, housing providers may also have separate obligations under the ADA. Dal's revised ADA regulations define "service animal" narrowly as any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability. The revised regulations specify that "the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship do not constitute work or tasks for the purposes of this definition." Thus, trained dogs are the only species of animal that may qualify as service animals under the ADA (there is a separate provision regarding trained miniature horses9), and emotional support animals are expressly precluded from qualifying as service animals under the ADA.

Service Animals Guidelines

Someone mentioned birds and cats earlier ...

a reply to: Gryphon66

Thank you for contributing to this thread. You are saying what I was
trying to get across. There is a difference in a "service" vs emotional
or therapy dog. The service dogs are trained to perform tasks.
In case you missed it I am disabled & I do have a service dog.
My dog is with me 24/7 & is not left at home all day.

Cheers
Ektar

I was a live on grounds apartment manager for many years, we also had a no pet policy.

I will say this though, I saw more apartment damage done by unsupervised kids and lazy unclean adults than all the animals anyone ever snuck into the building.

I am not sure about your state laws but in Texas, anytime an apartment needs to be remodeled, you can give the tenant x-many days notice that their lease is going to be canceled. If you have this clause in your laws, it's a good way to move destructive and non-compliant tenants out and your definition of "remodeling" can be as simple as painting or hanging up or cleaning window blinds but by then the tenants are usually gone from the property. There is no law that forces you to give them a different apartment. At least in Texas.

Luckily, I finally dropped that career. Goodluck.

a reply to: pixelated

I manage a very nice community, and do not tolerate bad residents. I bend over backwards in order to remain out of the court system and have been successful at that, as well as maintaining the nice community.

I am very stringent regarding who I allow to move onto my property. This does not involve discrimination of any kind, but rather the judicious use of background checks combined with calls to previous landlords checking up on their rental history.

You eliminate a lot of problems just doing your due diligence.

The last major "renovation" we had to do was due to unreported flooding. I suspect that the tenant left their faucet running with the sink stoppered.

Before that it was before my time and involved 2 dogs that, apparently, peed all over the place inside the apartment...they belonged to the previous manager......

originally posted by: bbracken677
Before that it was before my time and involved 2 dogs that, apparently, peed all over the place inside the apartment...they belonged to the previous manager......

I work in the AEC business and I can tell you how one landlord solved the pet problem. She stopped banning them and instead made the new tenant buy the carpet, before they moved in, the tenant paid for installation and removal as well. Her property became so popular that she had a waiting list of people wanting to move in, so you can guess what happened to rent there. She also found out a side effect once the policy was implemented in her properties, the tenants that had pets and could afford to pay for carpet, also happened to have stellar credit scores, stable jobs and higher incomes to boot.

a reply to: boohoo

Interesting concept....

I have not put up the vacancy sign since I took over. The no vacancy sign remains out front at all times.

People want what other's have, and if we are always full, there has to be a good reason, no?

I never have more than one vacant apartment and normally that is rented before it is turned. I cannot tell you how many times I get a security deposit to hold an apartment within a couple of weeks of a renter turning in their move-out notice.

I also have a waiting list. Life is good

originally posted by: bbracken677
I also have a waiting list. Life is good

But you complained about not wanting "pet owners" nor "service dogs" in your building. The "carpet solution" is a way for you to lower your maintenance cost, comfortably increase your rent and end up having tenants less likely to try and find "legal loopholes" so they can keep their pets. I was concerned by your post because you don't seem to be familiar with how these animals are trained, what their limitations and/or strengths may be and how all that fits into your preconceived idea about how a service dog should behave.

Imagine that such a simple solution as "carpet ownership by the tenant" works, you could then clear your head of all the stuff that's bothering you and also the potential pitfalls that I note below all INSTANTLY become irrelevant:

Its like I said earlier, if I were you, I'd say "licensed Primary Care Provider" is the safer stance to take, despite the apparent abuse of the rule.

As for the age and size of the dog, you are complaining about, well, I can explain how and why someone would have a puppy, yet still meet the requirements for it to be designated as a service animal and also have a real, but not visible, need.

Food Allergies (peanut allergies and Celiac disease specifically)

Don't forget its been estimated that 1 in 13 children has this disease today, which few people got even two decades ago. Honestly the need for a food allergy dog is more real today than it ever has been, so I personally wouldn't want to be the blowhard trying to prove falsehoods. This is an instance where statistics are simply not going to work in your favor.

The VA also has already set a certification standard for where the service dogs can be purchased or received from. In cases like this, if the dog came from certified trainer/breeder, you'd likely have an uphill battle in court. I'll try to briefly summarize a service dog from the Food Allergy perspective.

The dogs are mostly trained to do one thing, indicate allergens in the environment. That includes in food, on furniture, in the air etc. I don't want to get into a debate about whether the dog can actually do this or not, its not debatable position. A properly trained detection dog can do all of the above and meet the standards for evidence in court. That shipped has sailed, you'd never win that in court, especially if there is a training log book showing what the dog has been doing, to keep sharp on the detection of allergens or some other service dog function.

Also these dogs do not always go through a rigorous obedience training regimen, like guide dogs for example, because their primary function is very different. Some people simply can't afford to buy a fully trained service dog that would have both high level obedience training AND adequate scent detection skills. Why? Because there is about 6 months difference in the training time. Service dog training is big business (like $200 an hour big business), so you can see how and extra 6 months used to train a dog on a secondary skill set, can keep the fully trained dogs out of financial reach for many. So in the end, some people opt to buy the service dogs that are trained on a shorter timeline and ONLY on the PRIMARY task because its a LOT cheaper to do so.

In fact not to long ago, I ran into a lady that could not qualify to get a free service dog through Guide Dogs of America because her blindness was not "severe enough", so she had to buy one through a private sector "certified" provider. The dog she got didn't have half of the skills that a fully trained Guide Dogs of America dog, BUT it could safely get her across the street, in and out of her house and out of the way of obvious hazards. For example, a fully trained guide dog can actually figure out how to keep someone from bumping into obstructions at head height, I don't think her dog was skilled enough to do that , BUT her dog also cost about 1/3 of what a fully trained one would have costs.

a reply to: boohoo

That is NOT what I said. I have absolutely no issues with service animals and respect those who train them. I do know a little something about the training process.

I have no problems with pets. The community is pet friendly, with rules. We charge a $500 deposit for a pet. I own a dog. A wonderful, smart, funny, happy cocker spaniel.

I have a problem with people who have lived here for 10 years suddenly claiming an undisclosed disability and calling a pet (that they have not paid a deposit on, and violates the size restriction by triple) a service animal that is NOT a service animal. I know the people. I have asked for a document from a LMHP (licensed mental health professional) detailing the need, as is my right. If they produce the document then there is zippo I can do. IF they cannot, the dog, which will exceed size limitations will have to leave at the very least.

I have a problem with people who will use our stupid fed requlations to get around standing rules.

Oh, and regarding training....the bought the dog at 8 weeks of age and are doing a piss poor job of house training it and that is the only training that is going on.

originally posted by: bbracken677
I have asked for a document from a LMHP (licensed mental health professional) detailing the need, as is my right. If they produce the document then there is zippo I can do. IF they cannot, the dog, which will exceed size limitations will have to leave at the very least.

That was one of my points, you can't specify that the note must come from a "licensed mental health professional". There is case law already out there designating a Physician Assistant as a Primary Care Provider when a higher credentialed professions is not accessible for some reason, the PA's word is as good as an MD, due to how "access to healthcare" is defined by the law. Again I'm saying "licensed Primary Care Provider" is the safer LEGAL stance to take, despite the apparent abuse of the rule.

originally posted by: bbracken677
Oh, and regarding training....the bought the dog at 8 weeks of age and are doing a piss poor job of house training it and that is the only training that is going on.

I explained this too and now I will clarify further, using my example of a Food Allergy Detection Dog. If they let someone else train the dog its around $15,000 with all the bells and whistles (full obedience training, etc). BUT, if they train the allergen detection with the guidance of a trainer the cost can drop to about $5,000. That means they travel to the trainer a couple of times a week and do a lot of training themselves outside of the Service Dog School. A dog needs between 4,000-10,000 repetitions to become competent in a single task. So imagine this is someones FIRST "service dog" and to save money, they have opted for the "guided training" instead of the "fully loaded model" right off the lot. That means the dog isn't fully ready to do their job for a year or more. BUT don't forget, service dogs in training are covered under the law.

If you don't believe them, ask for a training log book, as far as I understand the laws, you won't be breaking the law because you are not asking them about their medical condition. They are covered for privacy, the dog is not. As far as I know, it hasn't been established in court that a landlord or store owner is not permitted to question the proof of the service dogs training.

a reply to: boohoo

Yes, I can. For an Emotional Support animal, I most absolutely can request a document from an LMHP. I have already established this. There is no doubt that I can do that.

I have reviewed state and federal regulations and I absolutely can.

a reply to: boohoo

Training is not required.

Did you not read the Federal Housing regulations I posted earlier? Apparently not.

I cannot require that the animal be trained....

originally posted by: bbracken677
Yes, I can. For an Emotional Support animal, I most absolutely can request a document from an LMHP. I have already established this. There is no doubt that I can do that.

I have reviewed state and federal regulations and I absolutely can.

You have not reviewed this thoroughly. There have been at least two cases where a note from licensed PA was an acceptable authorization. You are playing with fire, I wouldn't take a legal risk like that, especially if what you are saying is true about tenants pushing the rules to the limit. I suppose its not my butt on the line, if you don't want to acknowledged existing case law.

I don't have the time, right this second to look up, Texas law specifically, but here is a quick example of my point from Maine:

Under 5 M. R. S. A. § 4553(9-E), for purposes of subchapter 4 (fair housing): “Service animal” means: An animal that has been determined necessary to mitigate the effects of a physical or mental disability by a physician, psychologist, physician's assistant, nurse practitioner or licensed social worker; or An animal individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a physical or mental disability, including, but not limited to, guiding individuals with impaired vision, alerting individuals who are deaf or hard of hearing to intruders or sounds, providing reasonable protection or rescue work, pulling a wheelchair or retrieving dropped items;

originally posted by: bbracken677
Training is not required.

Did you not read the Federal Housing regulations I posted earlier? Apparently not.

I cannot require that the animal be trained....

"Asking for a log book which shows a training regimen" is for establishing "evidence of fraud" and some states DO require training, so it would be to your benefit to establish the evidence of "no training or log-book".

Just found something for Texas:

§ 121.006. Penalties for Improper Use of Assistance Animals (a) A person who uses a service animal with a harness or leash of the type commonly used by persons with disabilities who use trained animals, in order to represent that his or her animal is a specially trained service animal when training has not in fact been provided, is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction shall be punished by: (1) a fine of not more than $300; and (2) 30 hours of community service to be performed for a governmental entity or nonprofit organization that primarily serves persons with visual impairments or other disabilities, or for another entity or organization at the discretion of the court, to be completed in not more than one year . (b) A person who habitually abuses or neglects to feed or otherwise neglects to properly care for his or her assistance animal is subject to seizure of the animal under Subchapter B, Chapter 821, [FN1] Health and Safety Code.

What kind of legal advice are you getting?

a reply to: baddmove

You don't believe the Dr's note for my therapy rooster?

What about his three feathred girlfriends?

I like the carpet idea and would have no problem with it.

My pets are koi, macaws and LSG dogs so I have a house, Nature abhorrs a vacuum large yard = large pets. Can't bring the horses home so they are stables (Even I have limits)

a reply to: baddmove

I'll try to keep my statement as brief and to the point as possible.

My husband and I rent a small apartment in a complex we have resided in for the past decade. Several years ago, we decided to adopt a shelter kitty as a way to help him manage his overwhelming depression and isolating social anxiety. We paid a proper pet deposit. Her presence has helped immensely, for both of us.

Therapy animals do provide genuine health benefits for chronic sufferers of a wide variety of ailments...in genuine cases they are a godsend.

HOWEVER-

A lot of college kids (and even high-schoolers) will start dropping every diagnostic criteria they can think of in order to get preferential treatment, out of any type of responsibility or financial obligation they don't "feel" like dealing with, or just because they want something and can't have it without claiming an "illness".

I see it all the time. They're flat out lying through their teeth. I've seen innumerable blog site discussions from kids of all ages self-diagnosing one another and creating a collective mix-mash of so many "ailments" it's fascinating how they're even able to type coherently. By the time they're older, they've learned which ones to focus on in order to "get what they want".

It's pure pathological manipulation at it's finest, and people are falling for it.

Because of this sudden influx of self-diagnosed cases, the Mental Health System is becoming so overburdened with what I'll refer to as "vanity cases" that prescriptions and declarations like the letters you received are being pumped out all over the country just to get the entitled whiners out of their offices as quickly as possible.

Doctors and therapists can only deal with that type of "patient" so long before they need to get back to attending those with genuine need.

I've seen how bad mental illness can get. The fact that these kids are claiming mental disability because they can't sleep without their childhood pet is infuriating to me. It's even worse when professionals pander to them out of a misguided sense of "helping".

Growing up isn't easy, but it has to happen sometime.
It's about time these kids start learning that.

I earnestly hope you find a sound legal way to deal with these types of situations.