Vitamin A Protects Against Measles

originally posted by: theMediator
Damn, I bet those numbers are close to the number of children that are plaged with various disabilities following vaccines.

I don't know - do you have the numbers for various disabilities that are known to be associated with the vaccines? Not, for example, the bogus sort that came from Andrew Wakefield, or anecdotal evidence, but actual tests. I'm sure there are some. But I don't see measles meningitis as being better or acceptable because it's more natural.

originally posted by: Bedlam

Dying at 30 of old age is natural. A total lack of dental care is natural. Death from minor broken bones is natural.

Yes, death at any age is part of nature. But, it is natural -- and always has been -- for people to tend to their teeth, from rinsing with water to finding something sharp and pointy to remove food bits. Our dental knowledge and hygiene is a natural result of those efforts. Likewise, people have naturally sought and used methods for healing broken bones since the beginning of time, from moldy bread to braces and splints.

Any sort of medical care at all is unnatural. Electric power is unnatural. Hot water in the morning is unnatural. Cooked food is unnatural.

All are indeed natural. Plants and other substances of the earth are natural and their healing properties are also natural, as is electricity, and the fire used to heat/cook food, just as is the human desire to use the bounty of the earth to improve their lives. All natural. Humans did not create plants or electricity or fire in a lab or on a 3d printer or in the halls of congress. We brought nothing to this world; we can only make the most of what we find here.

Perhaps you would like to comment on the topic? You seem to have strong opinions on the subject, so you must have informed yourself... what (if anything) have you read/heard about the effects of Vitamin A supplementation on measles related deaths? Treatment? Prevention? How do you think it impacts the effects of vaccinations vs supplementation?

originally posted by: Boadicea
Our dental knowledge and hygiene is a natural result of those efforts. Likewise, people have naturally sought and used methods for healing broken bones since the beginning of time, from moldy bread to braces and splints.

And vaccination is an extension of the same thing. By noticing that milkmaids seemed to avoid the smallpox ( the phrase pretty as a milkmaid has a reason,after all...), Jenner was able to prevent smallpox by giving people the cowpox prophylactically. That's no less natural than a splint or moldy bread.

All are indeed natural. Plants and other substances of the earth are natural and their healing properties are also natural...

And so is vaccination.

what (if anything) have you read/heard about the effects of Vitamin A supplementation on measles related deaths? Treatment? Prevention? How do you think it impacts the effects of vaccinations vs supplementation?

I think any virus is going to have more of an effect on unhealthy or malnourished kids. Unless the mechanism of death is a cytokine storm, in which case a crappy immune system is probably a boon.

The vitamin A studies were done in developing countries. WHO and UNICEF are recommending that vitamin A supplements be given in locations where vitamin A insufficiency is a known problem and measles are going around. That makes sense. I haven't seen studies done, say, in the US or Canada or the like on the same issue. Doesn't mean there weren't any, just didn't see any in between posts. I'd expect to see no improvement in first world countries. And while it reduces mortality in third world countries, the total mortality from measles is still higher than in the US without vitamin A. So I'd say the best idea would be to vaccinate and give vitamin supplements as well. If their diets are poor, some vitamins can't hurt.

originally posted by: HawkeyeNation


So you are able to give a child enough Vitamin A on a daily basis to prevent such?

I don't know. I'm trying to find out now. I've found some claims that it will in fact prevent measles, but with no studies or references cited The info from the CDC, WHO, NIH, etc., all affirm its amazing protective action AFTER contracting measles, with plenty of references. So I'm trying to find any studies that looks at the prevention of measles with Vitamin A supplementation. No luck so far.

Ok so that stops your measles concern but now what about everything else?

Exactly. As one who is immuno-compromised myself, I realize there are a gazillion diseases and viruses out there that could get the best of me any day. Measles isn't one of them, because I've had it, but I still have to take the same precautions and preparations. So does everyone else in a similar position. So why all this uproar and threats about forced vaccinations over a disease that does not kill with proper nutritional supplementation? Especially when the vaccines do?

I have not problems with people not liking vaccines, I'm one of them. I would rather supplement with vitamins as well but there is a time and place for common sense. You can supplement and vaccinate at the same time.

Agreed. I have no problem with quality vaccines. They are a Godsend. My problem is with forced vaccinations, created and manufactured by people who have proven they are untrustworthy and do not have our best interests at heart, and enforced by tyrants who have also proven they are untrustworthy and do not have our best interests at heart.

originally posted by: Bedlam
That's not a straw man. I'm asking you. Are you afraid to answer? It's really simple - I, 'theMediator', believe it's more natural or better to catch a full blown case of the live virus. yes/no

Bad argumenting...

In the case of never getting the virus in the first place, not having the vaccine is 100% better.
In case of getting the virus...having the vaccine is better...well, that's what we are lend to believe.

It is more natural to catch a live virus than a dead virus. Vaccines are technology's doing, not natural.
They claim that it's better to get a vaccine than a live virus. I don't think we know enough and have made the right researches to perefectly define if it's true or not. You can't catch autism from measles while some say you can from vaccines.

Why are you asking these questions anyway? What you are trying to prove has no weight in the first place...

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

Have you even researched the trend of deaths/severe side effects of measles prior to the widespread use of the vaccination in the late 60s? It was already going down, while world population was on the rise.

I've been looking at the statistics all morning in terms of how the supplementation of Vitamin A could/would have affected those statistics, and trying to find clinical studies -- but no luck yet. I find it disturbing that all of the attacks on anti-forced-vaxxers give all the credit to vaccinations for decreased incidences/deaths, completely ignoring the Vitamin A connection. Not especially truth-full... so what else are we not being told?

Measles, with modern health care and hygiene standards, is a statistically harmless virus. Don't subscribe to the emotional arguments and ignorant ramblings of people who don't do the research and crunch the official numbers--it can put you in a scary place, like thinking natural, unvaccinated people in the world should be quarantined.

Are you even listening to your argument?!?! Your stance, in all honesty, is a pretty concerning one.

I so agree. It's chilling.

originally posted by: theMediator
Bad argumenting...

In the case of never getting the virus in the first place, not having the vaccine is 100% better.
In case of getting the virus...having the vaccine is better...well, that's what we are lend to believe.

It is more natural to catch a live virus than a dead virus. Vaccines are technology's doing, not natural.

Well, dead is natural too, but not preferable; we're trying to avoid that with the vaccine.

They claim that it's better to get a vaccine than a live virus. I don't think we know enough and have made the right researches to perefectly define if it's true or not. You can't catch autism from measles while some say you can from vaccines.

Andrew Wakefield, the fraud, for example. I don't think there are a lot of actual bits of research (not the sort you get on educate yourself or huffpo) that show a definitive connection between autism and vaccines. Vaccination's been around since the 1700's...it's sort of beyond debate as a general topic by now. Although individual vaccines may be dangerous or ineffective - the rotavirus vaccine comes to mind.

You can very much end up a veggie,paralyzed, or mentally handicapped from measles, though. I'm not sure a nice case of measles meningitis is a lot better than autism, even if it's natural.

Why are you asking these questions anyway? What you are trying to prove has no weight in the first place...

Sure it does. Vaccines work in a measurable, statistically proven fashion. Viruses have side effects as well. Grant you, if a vaccine is harder on you than the disease, or you are so unlikely to catch the disease that you shouldn't risk the vaccination, then it doesn't make sense to be vaccinated - that's why you don't see kids getting smallpox vaccine these days.

originally posted by: Bedlam

And vaccination is an extension of the same thing. By noticing that milkmaids seemed to avoid the smallpox ( the phrase pretty as a milkmaid has a reason,after all...), Jenner was able to prevent smallpox by giving people the cowpox prophylactically. That's no less natural than a splint or moldy bread.

Agreed. It is one more way we try to use what we have the best we can. What is not natural, however, is to force anything on others, including vaccinations. I don't have a problem with vaccines in and of themselves, but I recognize that some people will have adverse reactions (and that we cannot trust Big Pharma to always do what is best for us). Like my son, who developed measles from his booster shot and passed it on to his sister... and gave the county fits! So their pediatrician advised me to spread out future vaccinations to accommodate their sensitivity. There needs to be the freedom and choice to work with your doctor as a partner in doing what is best for each individual. Not a one-size-fits-all-at-the-point-of-a-gun approach.

The vitamin A studies were done in developing countries. WHO and UNICEF are recommending that vitamin A supplements be given in locations where vitamin A insufficiency is a known problem and measles are going around. That makes sense. I haven't seen studies done, say, in the US or Canada or the like on the same issue. Doesn't mean there weren't any, just didn't see any in between posts. I'd expect to see no improvement in first world countries. And while it reduces mortality in third world countries, the total mortality from measles is still higher than in the US without vitamin A. So I'd say the best idea would be to vaccinate and give vitamin supplements as well. If their diets are poor, some vitamins can't hurt.

I've only been able to find a couple studies done in the USA, and one in England. Both were fairly small, but significant. What I cannot find is any studies about Vitamin A prevention of measles, just studies about treating measles. But yes, nutritional supplements for under-nourished kids is vital. A report from UNICEF is working towards a goal of a 70% reduction in child mortality with just Vitamin A supplementation! That's amazing to me. But it shows the importance of proper nutrition.

originally posted by: Bedlam
Viruses have side effects as well. Grant you, if a vaccine is harder on you than the disease, or you are so unlikely to catch the disease that you shouldn't risk the vaccination, then it doesn't make sense to be vaccinated - that's why you don't see kids getting smallpox vaccine these days.

To this is very much agree. Your best post yet, starred...

Small pox vaccines are not very good since they lose their effectiveness over-time and is a disease that affect's adults more than children.

This new tread here actually shows that most people that get measles are adults. If they had caught measles when they were children instead of being temporarily protected by the vaccine, they would of been immune as adults.

...So many opinions out there, I'm staying pro-choice and if you want vaccines, I would protect your rights to get them.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: theMediator

That's such a bad straw man tactic, I mean look at you!

That's not how you debate a point.

That's not a straw man. I'm asking you. Are you afraid to answer? It's really simple - I, 'theMediator', believe it's more natural or better to catch a full blown case of the live virus. yes/no



See, I'm trying to see what your reasoning is here. Your body's building immunity to the viral coat either way.

You have to weigh the views. On one hand we have the measles that is mostly non lethel and is natural and on the other is a man made substance provided by big pharma that stems from one of the worst killing empires known to mankind. the nazis. Most critical thinkers will take their chances with the measles

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: theMediator
Damn, I bet those numbers are close to the number of children that are plaged with various disabilities following vaccines.

I don't know - do you have the numbers for various disabilities that are known to be associated with the vaccines? Not, for example, the bogus sort that came from Andrew Wakefield, or anecdotal evidence, but actual tests. I'm sure there are some. But I don't see measles meningitis as being better or acceptable because it's more natural.

Honestly, the problem with this, is that it's hard to find. Sure...you can look at this: CDC page on side effect rates

BUT...if we're honest about it, no matter which side of the fence we fall on, we KNOW that not nearly all of the reactions are reported. I know this first-hand, because my son nearly died from it, but wasn't reported as an adverse reaction because it wasn't even a known reaction for almost two years AFTER it happened.

If you look on the document I linked, under the MMRV vaccine, you'll see in the 1 in 40,000 with a severe bleeding disorder) My son almost bled to death at 1 1/2 yrs old. At the time, I researched the heck out of it, because no one knew why it happened, just the the mucus lining in his stomach and upper intestines bled and only vitamin K stopped it. I was told by children's hospital, that they averaged (at the time, about 18 yrs ago) 6 similar cases a year, all around the same age with the same symptoms with unknown causes. Of course, there is NO way to know for sure if these are/were being caused by the MMR, but I believe there are/were.

It's cases like this...ones that are suspected, but not reported that really, really bother me as a parent. I almost lost my child because of it.

Tell me...all of you that have kids that have been vaccinated. Did your doctor warn you that your child might start hemorrhaging internally and what signs/symptoms to look for? No? What...you say it only happens only 1 in 40,0000 cases? Well, I can tell you as a parent of that 1....it scares the heck out of me.

THIS is why I don't trust the vaccine schedule.

I am NOT against all vaccines. I am FOR complete education. I am FOR complete testing of a vaccine with full disclosure before administering it to millions of trusting babies.

I am FOR protecting us from diseases that actually warrant vaccines, not just to make BILLIONS of dollars for the politicians that are quick to sign off on the lives of our children.




You REALLY want to debate this issue? Then how about we talk about TRUTHS and the realities of BOTH the good and the bad when it comes to vaccines. Let's not blanket it all in the stupid, tote-the-line attitude of anti-vaccine hate propaganda?

originally posted by: abe froman
You know what works even better?

Vaccination.

Actually you know what works even better? Naturally acquired immunity! Measles for 99% of the population is a benign easily recovered from disease! Now how about RSV which kills 4500 children in the US every year and hospitalizes 90,000!
Many children that are diagnosed with measles don't even have measles!
www.researchgate.net... 529e1fe9ecd6a000000.pdf

originally posted by: Boadicea
There needs to be the freedom and choice to work with your doctor as a partner in doing what is best for each individual. Not a one-size-fits-all-at-the-point-of-a-gun approach.

What would be just wonderful would be if you had a fast, easy pee test or finger stick test to measure seroconversion. And have Mommy bring the kids back a few weeks after the jab so they could see if they need more or one with a different adjuvant if baby didn't seroconvert.

Heck, that would let you avoid unnecessary follow-up shots - if you had enough antibodies, no need for more jabs.

But without, you have to vaccinate the whole 'herd' to make sure you're covered statistically. Even then, if someone didn't get the jab and gets an enthusiastic case of epizoodix, your kid can catch it to some extent, previously infected or no, vaccinated or no, because it's going to take a few days to mount a good response, even if the body knows how. Those two reasons are why "herd immunity" works better than here-and-there vaccination.

Or, of course, I could see a bright, shiny future where instead of vaccines, we develop a contagious set of childhood diseases that aren't all that bad, by design. "Easels" for example. Has the same outer coat sequences as common strains of measles, but inside you've deprived it of any sort of teeth and added in some goo to keep it from cross-breeding with wild strains. So you set that loose and let it work its way through the country. Free immunity for all! Only I could see some folks not being so happy with it.

I've only been able to find a couple studies done in the USA, and one in England. Both were fairly small, but significant. What I cannot find is any studies about Vitamin A prevention of measles, just studies about treating measles.

Well, I don't think it DOES prevent measles, it just reduces the mortality.

a reply to: westcoast

My heart goes out to you. My son had a severe reaction to antibiotics when he was six. It was terrifying. I think I was in shock and operating on autopilot because I barely remember the trip to the ER. I don't want any kid or their parent to have to go through that hell from any cause. I'm stunned at how many people are crying about their child with absolutely no thought to the other children with the opposite problem.

And no, I don't remember being told about this when my kids had the vax, but that was almost 30 years ago. Could be my faulty memory.

originally posted by: theMediator
If they had caught measles when they were children instead of being temporarily protected by the vaccine, they would of been immune as adults.

You know, I would bet that the age-related decline in immunity is the same across the board, "natural" or no. After all, the immunity you get from a vaccine is the same mechanism as when you catch the thing.

And some immunities are known to be time-limited because the cells that produce the antibody age out and die without passing the info along.

However, with me it doesn't matter because every couple of years they suck out all my blood and I get a panel of vaccines to make up for the ones I don't have sufficient antibodies for anyway. I'd have to say the MMR was among the least nasty

originally posted by: Bedlam

What would be just wonderful would be if you had a fast, easy pee test or finger stick test to measure seroconversion. And have Mommy bring the kids back a few weeks after the jab so they could see if they need more or one with a different adjuvant if baby didn't seroconvert.

Heck, that would let you avoid unnecessary follow-up shots - if you had enough antibodies, no need for more jabs.... Or, of course, I could see a bright, shiny future where instead of vaccines, we develop a contagious set of childhood diseases that aren't all that bad, by design.

From your keyboard to big pharma's ears! I was reading about that this morning. This might save some kids from getting a vax at all. Apparently, there is much misdiagnosis of measles -- both failure to diagnose and misdiagnosing as measles. The rash is not at all conclusive, since other rashes mimic measles, and not everyone develops the rash. A blood test is the only definitive diagnosis. I have a feeling that such tests would be considered too inconvenient and/or too expensive.

Well, I don't think it DOES prevent measles, it just reduces the mortality.

I think you're right. There is a specific measles virus, so it's not just a Vitamin A deficiency, like scurvy and Vitamin C deficiency. From what I've been reading, Vitamin A is protective against all viral and bacterial infections, not just measles. I do wonder, however, how many kids with measles go undiagnosed because they are well-nourished enough that the complications never develop.

originally posted by: westcoast
Honestly, the problem with this, is that it's hard to find. Sure...you can look at this: CDC page on side effect rates

BUT...if we're honest about it, no matter which side of the fence we fall on, we KNOW that not nearly all of the reactions are reported. I know this first-hand, because my son nearly died from it, but wasn't reported as an adverse reaction because it wasn't even a known reaction for almost two years AFTER it happened.

The problem is, it gets anecdotal. The non-anecdotal evidence is that the vaccines aren't very dangerous. Grant you, out of a large population of people you'll get awful side-effects with aspirin with a few people. And some vaccines are rough, the smallpox vaccine is awful.

If you look on the document I linked, under the MMRV vaccine, you'll see in the 1 in 40,000 with a severe bleeding disorder) My son almost bled to death at 1 1/2 yrs old. At the time, I researched the heck out of it, because no one knew why it happened, just the the mucus lining in his stomach and upper intestines bled and only vitamin K stopped it. I was told by children's hospital, that they averaged (at the time, about 18 yrs ago) 6 similar cases a year, all around the same age with the same symptoms with unknown causes. Of course, there is NO way to know for sure if these are/were being caused by the MMR, but I believe there are/were.

Now. If vitamin K stopped it, then it was NOT the MMR. If you look at the document, you will see that the adverse event was a low platelet count. Vitamin K does not correct for low platelet count. So if your child was bleeding due to thrombocytopenia, vitamin K would not have reversed it, and he would have continued to bleed. Vitamin K is given for accidental coumadin consumption or K deficiency. A lot of kids are vitamin K deficient anyway, all infants are K deficient until they start on solid food.

It's cases like this...ones that are suspected, but not reported that really, really bother me as a parent. I almost lost my child because of it.

Fear not, if K fixed it, it wasn't the MMR.

You REALLY want to debate this issue? Then how about we talk about TRUTHS and the realities of BOTH the good and the bad when it comes to vaccines. Let's not blanket it all in the stupid, tote-the-line attitude of anti-vaccine hate propaganda?

Point out the hate propaganda part.

originally posted by: Boadicea

From your keyboard to big pharma's ears! I was reading about that this morning. This might save some kids from getting a vax at all.

About every two years, I get antibody titers drawn and have to get boosters on everything that's low.

It sucks, but I'd rather get shot than catch typhus or some damned thing. OTOH, at least they don't blanket vaccinate me for the stuff I'm still immune to. Weirdly enough, I don't maintain immunity to chickenpox/shingles but I do pretty well with the other stuff.

originally posted by: Bedlam

Or, of course, I could see a bright, shiny future where instead of vaccines, we develop a contagious set of childhood diseases that aren't all that bad, by design. "Easels" for example. Has the same outer coat sequences as common strains of measles, but inside you've deprived it of any sort of teeth and added in some goo to keep it from cross-breeding with wild strains.

Bedlam, that's called a vaccine.

So you set that loose and let it work its way through the country. Free immunity for all! Only I could see some folks not being so happy with it.

If you got lots of immunity without morbidity, it doesn't propagate. It's a vaccine.

originally posted by: mbkennel

If you got lots of immunity without morbidity, it doesn't propagate. It's a vaccine.

In this case, you'd want it to be wildly contagious, just so mild you only feel sort of crappy for a half day.

Can you imagine the announcement? I can see the president on the TV, "We released several sets of genetically engineered viruses that are at this moment working their way across the country. When it's over, you won't need immunizations to the following diseases... We only want to HELP YOU. And since you weren't getting vaccines, well, this was the only way. Remember, we're the government, and we're here to help...YOU"

Ah. The reaction you'd get.