The Immorality Of Eating Meat When There Are Vegi Alternatives Do People Care?

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I don't personally find it immoral, so I wouldn't stop. I eat everything, a true omnivore, but my preferred meat is venison not beef.

Is it moral to eat animals if you don't need to?
Is it moral to eat fish or sea food if you don't need to?
Is it moral to eat plants if you don't need to?

They are all alive until harvested, but I do agree the farming techniques used with our processed foods are abominable. But I would venture to say that any immorality lies in the conditions they are raised and harvested in rather then in the killing.

We do need to eat something nutritious to live, all things consume something to sustain life. The human body needs a large variety of nutrients not all of which can be obtained easily from a strictly vegan diet.

Sorry to disappoint but synthetic meats do not taste the same, and I'm not sure I would trust Monsanto to come up with a genetically altered version of any type of meat.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

Is it moral to eat animals when you dont need to?

Do you even care at all about the possible immorality of eating animals when you dont need to as there are alternatives that can fool anyone?

Do we have the right to inflict suffering on creatures we consider ourselves more advanced than, then slaughter and eat them when there is no need to?

Questions I've heard and thought about a great deal. This is truly a 1st world problem as most people struggling to sustain life in 3rd world countries would not often question the morality of eating anything unless religious beliefs were involved.

Plants experience things too. Just because we don't fully understand and cannot empathize with them does not make it any more morally superior to eat them in place of an animal. Having a face doesn't make something any more or less deserving of life. You just have to accept the fact that in order for you to live then something else, and lots of them, must die.

I have no problem with vegetarian lifestyles. I've spent various times in my life not eating meat. Not eating any right now actually.

When you bring morality into the equation there is no way to deny no matter what you do and no matter what you eat that for every unit of energy you eat you are killing something and denying something else access to that unit of energy. If you eat an apple then you can bet that that apple came from an orchard that is doing all it can to prevent wildlife from eating their crop up to and including hiring hunters to cull deer. Even organic farms take up space and certainly do not let their crop get eaten just because the local wildlife population is having a rough year for finding food. Being alive means making a choice that other things will die, but rest assured when your time comes the world will consume you and the circle goes on.

And on a side note I don't think it reflects well on somebody to misrepresent food they are serving to friends. Serving food to people shouldn't be a gotcha moment. Would you like it if somebody asked you to try a vegetarian burger and then fed you beef? I ask that quite seriously, not as a flippant joke or to be a wiseacre.

originally posted by: Mianeye
Animals eat animals, i see myself as an animal, some animals would eat me in a heartbeat, "i'll eat them before they eat me".



I eat veggies on the side.



I would eat synthetic meat if there is no other option.



Btw, today i had mashed potato with peas and carrots, no meat, absolutely delicious

I see so even though we have synthetic meat it would only be eaten if there were no other options available.
As human beings we can contemplate the morality of our choices, and you say you see yourself as an animal, so you see yourslf as the same as the animals your eating.

I do wonder what meat eaters think of morals when it comes to animal lives being equal to thier own, and animals right to life being equal to our own.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

You keep ignoring people's posts and repeating that this is a question of morality, but you keep equating animals with human beings. People eat animals to live, just like they eat vegetables to live. Some people can't get alternatives to the protein they get from eating meat. Many people can't get alternatives to the nutrients from seafood. Many animals eat each other to survive, and many eat their own species to survive. Reminder: you live on planet Earth.

Let me ask you this: is it moral to eat plants? Plants are living beings too. They react to emotion, they communicate with each other, and many animals rely on them being around to survive. What about the bug colonies that are wiped out by plowing fields? Do those insects not qualify as animals? What about the animals displaced by clearing farmland? What about the dwindling fresh water supply being depleted by irrigation?

What makes animals so special that I should consider it immoral to eat them in the first place? Things die so other things can live. Its the cycle of life.

Hats off to you FOTL,

Some interesting tips there mate. I have 2 large vege gardens from which I pick the better fruit and vege's from. All other 'not so good' veges gets fed to the pigs, chickens and geese. (all organic) These animals also free range over a couple of acres.

In return I get fresh eggs, chicken dinners, pork roasts and goose dinners. Supports me and my family (6). Should I ask people over for a BBQ, Spit Roast and/or Hungi, I have many takers and also swap and supplement their need for intake as well. (No gov handouts as self sufficient.)

Our selection/block/land is in the hills. The young ones learn to take care of themselves and supplement their dietry needs with the vege's, catching rabbits and roos, and, soon fish which I've stocked in the dams. They have no interest in maintaining the vege gardens but show much enthusiasm in eating and cooking what they have caught in the bush.

Eldest is a lady over 6ft, followed by a 16 old boy taller than her. Our 14 old daughter is also up to 6 ft and so on. (All fit and healthy) Horses for courses I tend to think.

I suppose what I'm alluding to is that 'meat' and vege's gives them their energy, strength and ability to get out and do physical activities and teaches them the skills and alternatives to eating other than just a vege diet. There's nothing like a 'roo stew' cooked by my son. Vege's don't grow in the bush here for gatherers, plenty of roos and rabbits though.

Cheers and home brewed beers,

Bally

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Sorry to inform you that human are semi-obligated carnivor.

Carb eaters are those that cannot participate in hunting and die while eating plant root ...

originally posted by: sine.nomine
a reply to: FormOfTheLord



You keep ignoring people's posts and repeating that this is a question of morality, but you keep equating animals with human beings. People eat animals to live, just like they eat vegetables to live. Some people can't get alternatives to the protein they get from eating meat. Many people can't get alternatives to the nutrients from seafood. Many animals eat each other to survive, and many eat their own species to survive. Reminder: you live on planet Earth.



Let me ask you this: is it moral to eat plants? Plants are living beings too. They react to emotion, they communicate with each other, and many animals rely on them being around to survive. What about the bug colonies that are wiped out by plowing fields? Do those insects not qualify as animals? What about the animals displaced by clearing farmland? What about the dwindling fresh water supply being depleted by irrigation?



What makes animals so special that I should consider it immoral to eat them in the first place? Things die so other things can live. Its the cycle of life.

Slow down there dude im not ignoring anyone, I just cant address every flippant insult and expect to have a civil discussion now can I.
Nor can I address every post made as there are quite a few.


However to your the point of plants yes they do have leaves, brancehes roots, seeds, stems, and perhaps some kind of emotions or feelings feelings so to say. I believe there are levels of cousiousness in all things animate or inanimate, and in plants as well.

Do I believe its moral to kill and eat a plant if its not needed no.

But I do think if there was another way that was developed so that plants didnt need to be eaten then if we were still just killing plants and eating them for nothing more than our desire to do so would be immoral.

As to finding a way to live perhaps on light itself or 3d print food at the atomic level I think these techologies are on the way at some future point in time.

If there is a better way which causes less suffering I think the moral thing to do would be to take that path, but to each thier own.

Morality can be a personal question, so everyone has a different idea of what is moral for them I guess.

In our society we hold some ideas to be moral while some other ideals to be immoral, it really comes down to peoples perspective.

So overnight everyone stops eating meat, those animals that have already died will be thrown away, those animals that wont be slaughtered for food? the feed lot wont feed them anymore, as there is no market, so they will be slaughtered, and thrown away.
What a damned waste, waste of that animals life, waste of food feeding it, waste of time looking after it, how many people throughtout the world will be out of a job?
Is there anything in the bible about not eating meat?
Eating meat started humans on the long road to where we are now.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

Slow down there dude im not ignoring anyone, I just cant address every flippant insult and expect to have a civil discussion now can I.
Nor can I address every post made as there are quite a few.

I was referring to the fact that you opened with a dozen youtube videos, asking (very pointedly) if it was immoral to eat meat. Then you reiterated your question. Then you said you weren't calling anyone immoral, and you supplied a very broad definition of the term morality. After that you spent a few posts recommending brands that were alternatives to meat, and then you posted about cannibalism. None of these posts were engaging the people addressing your questions.

However to your the point of plants yes they do have leaves, brancehes roots, seeds, stems, and perhaps some kind of emotions or feelings feelings so to say. I believe there are levels of cousiousness in all things animate or inanimate, and in plants as well.

I agree.

Do I believe its moral to kill and eat a plant if its not needed no.

I think most people can agree that killing without the need to kill is immoral, and the same could be said for overeating by most people to a lesser extent depending on where you live.

But I do think if there was another way that was developed so that plants didnt need to be eaten then if we were still just killing plants and eating them for nothing more than our desire to do so would be immoral.

I think you're trying to hard to press your morality question without thinking about what you're applying the morality to. I mean really... when you get down to it, at this point you're basically saying "hey wouldn't it be nice if nothing died ever?"

As to finding a way to live perhaps on light itself or 3d print food at the atomic level I think these techologies are on the way at some future point in time.

When that happens, let me know.

If there is a better way which causes less suffering I think the moral thing to do would be to take that path, but to each thier own.

Morality can be a personal question, so everyone has a different idea of what is moral for them I guess.

In our society we hold some ideas to be moral while some other ideals to be immoral, it really comes down to peoples perspective.

You're right, morality is subjective to a point, and driven largely by our societies. Now, after all that, why would I find it immoral to eat meat? Why is eating animals the one thing that sticks out for this question of morality? Does your question of morality for eating animals apply to bugs?

You really haven't answered any questions or elaborated on your own topic at all.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

originally posted by: nOraKat
a reply to: pheonix358



I think it all boils down to the experience of suffering, and not necessarily to the taking of life, especially plants or seeds/grains. just saying we should have consideration for suffering.



This is only my opinion of course, but I suspect grains and seeds do not experience suffering when you eat or cook them.




Those are frog legs in that video. The guy in the other video said the burger would cost about 20 dollars when it comes out , too much for me to pay for. I am happy for you and your family of veggie heads and props for your supior morals.



Listen I eat meat too. My reasoning is that I am not going to suffer in order to avoid meat altogether, but I try to be reasonable with how much and what I eat. I try to throw in legumes/beans (like soy bean products and eggs into my diet for protein also, so I am not always causing the slaughter of some animal.

Well its also a question of morality and the golden rule of, "Do onto others as we would have them do onto us."

If people are just eating meat because it tasts good would they eat human flesh as well?

Would many consider that immoral?

Alot of the arguments are that it tastes good, we are stronger, survival of the fittest, we are smarter, it was written in a book that god said it was cool, so we can eat them.

Well if the same was said of humans would people eat each other?
Or if another more advanced race showed up would we think its moral for them to eat us because they are more advanced?

Those are frog legs in that video I do believe.

Plants are self aware. Do you feel immoral for killing all those precious little baby tomatoes? Do you care? Are you in denial of the obvious truth?


Do Plants Think?

How aware are plants? This is the central question behind a fascinating new book, “What a Plant Knows,” by Daniel Chamovitz, director of the Manna Center for Plant Biosciences at Tel Aviv University. A plant, he argues, can see, smell and feel. It can mount a defense when under siege, and warn its neighbors of trouble on the way. A plant can even be said to have a memory. But does this mean that plants think — or that one can speak of a “neuroscience” of the flower? Chamovitz answered questions from Mind Matters editor Gareth Cook.

People have to realize that plants are complex organisms that live rich, sensual lives. You know many of us relate to plants as inanimate objects, not much different from stones. Even the fact that many people substitute silk flowers for real ones, or artificial Christmas trees for a live one, is exemplary at some level of how we relate to plants. You know, I don’t know anyone who keeps a stuffed dog in place of a real one!

originally posted by: Xeven
Plants are self aware. Do you feel immoral for killing all those precious little baby tomatoes? Do you care? Are you in denial of the obvious truth?





Do Plants Think?

How aware are plants? This is the central question behind a fascinating new book, “What a Plant Knows,” by Daniel Chamovitz, director of the Manna Center for Plant Biosciences at Tel Aviv University. A plant, he argues, can see, smell and feel. It can mount a defense when under siege, and warn its neighbors of trouble on the way. A plant can even be said to have a memory. But does this mean that plants think — or that one can speak of a “neuroscience” of the flower? Chamovitz answered questions from Mind Matters editor Gareth Cook.

People have to realize that plants are complex organisms that live rich, sensual lives. You know many of us relate to plants as inanimate objects, not much different from stones. Even the fact that many people substitute silk flowers for real ones, or artificial Christmas trees for a live one, is exemplary at some level of how we relate to plants. You know, I don’t know anyone who keeps a stuffed dog in place of a real one!

Yes its immoral if theres another way.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord
Ever think that different people have different dietary need? Do you really think that an Inuit who has eaten the typical Inuit diet all their life following in their parents and ancestors footsteps? would thrive on vegetarian diet? I don't think so.

Your ancestors probably were farmers, like mine came from low sunlight mountainous regions where herding was a necessity for food. I struggle with anemia, from low Iron and Vitamin B deficiencies. I also have celiacs soy allergy and borderline insulin resistance. The optimal diet for me is high in meat dairy and veggies and limited fruit. Living with Celiacs it is just easier to cut out most if not all grain products. My health and weight were wreck until I changed my diet to include less carbs and more meat and dairy. Meat saved my life.

I could not handle a vegetarian diet. I am glad it works for you and you should probably avoid the diet I need to be healthy. All I am asking is that you don't claim you are living proof for something hat is so individualized and i wont claim I am living proof in support of a low card high protein diet. Because clearly, my diet won't work for you and yours won't work for me. Does that make either one of our dietary choices wrong? No!

FOr the record, I am 100% against CAFO's. If you came out declaring those immoral I would agree. But eating meat all together, is not.

a reply to: savagediver
Wow, yes, I can confirm they are frog legs.

I enjoy eating meat and vegetables and will continue to do so. If greasy meats put me in the ground 10 years early, so be it. That's how much I enjoy eating meat my friend.

originally posted by: Voyager1
I enjoy eating meat and vegetables and will continue to do so. If greasy meats put me in the ground 10 years early, so be it. That's how much I enjoy eating meat my friend.

Thats great and all but the immorality of eating meat when it isnt necessary or even needed is the issue of the thread. . .

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

originally posted by: Xeven
Plants are self aware. Do you feel immoral for killing all those precious little baby tomatoes? Do you care? Are you in denial of the obvious truth?





Do Plants Think?

How aware are plants? This is the central question behind a fascinating new book, “What a Plant Knows,” by Daniel Chamovitz, director of the Manna Center for Plant Biosciences at Tel Aviv University. A plant, he argues, can see, smell and feel. It can mount a defense when under siege, and warn its neighbors of trouble on the way. A plant can even be said to have a memory. But does this mean that plants think — or that one can speak of a “neuroscience” of the flower? Chamovitz answered questions from Mind Matters editor Gareth Cook.

People have to realize that plants are complex organisms that live rich, sensual lives. You know many of us relate to plants as inanimate objects, not much different from stones. Even the fact that many people substitute silk flowers for real ones, or artificial Christmas trees for a live one, is exemplary at some level of how we relate to plants. You know, I don’t know anyone who keeps a stuffed dog in place of a real one!

Yes its immoral if theres another way.

Maybe the best way is to kill yourself and then you will never have to harm anything (not even kill a plant), lol.
Reminds me of a film called 'The Butterfly Effect'.

I was a vegetarian for a few years and a vegan for about a year--mainly at the height of my eating disorder. I enjoy fish and I like an occasional filet minon. Call it human indulgence, I guess. I don't think it's a sin. I don't make a habit out of eating slaughtered creatures. And I enjoy the ones I do, when i do (upon occasion), to pay homage to their lives.

If people kill animals for food, I think the animals should be treated well and I think that all of them should be used so as to honor that life.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord Does eating more fish and chicken count as eating meat? I do not eat much beef, or pork at all. However, humans are omnivores. We eat meat and will continue to eat it. We are hard wired to do so. Being vegan is a choice. I eat more veggies than anything else. But I can not stop eating beef, even thought I do not eat it much.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Greetings.

Just a question, do you indulge in a glass of wine every now and then?