God is Love... Except when he's committing genocide...

I see people ALL the time say "god is love". Well how can the atrocities of the Old Testament be attributed to a being that is love personified?

IMHO it's really lazy and illogical thinking. Kinda when your girlfriend/wife accuses you of "your here but your not here". Or your boss tells you to think outside the box....

It's when they (boss/wife) don't even know what they want but are mad at you for not giving it to them.

But back to the point. How can you say some one who.....

Ordered the genocide of the philistines

Caused the flood killing all but one family

Sends all unbelievers to burn in hell

Tortured job over a bet with the devil

Ordered a father to murder his son

Really the list goes on and on, so how can you call that guy LOVE incarnate??

originally posted by: Entreri06
Well how can the atrocities of the Old Testament be attributed to a being that is love personified?

Obviously the 'god' of the Old Testament isn't God. A whole lotta' human error and human politics and human war lording got passed off as 'god' in the Old Testament.

a reply to: Entreri06

The argument would of course be that you could not begin to comprehend God's Plan. Somethings like "genocide" to you on this earth in your small lifetime might seem terrible, but to the God in the Christian Bible? Someone who created the entire Universe and everything in it? It would barely be anything.

The other side is you don't believe in God, so why even bother worrying about whether he's love or not? In your opinion, he doesn't exist, right?

I, in my personal opinion, would not call the god of the OT the ONE True GOD, 'that' is a demiurge; an imposter who is desperate to be worshiped for whatever reason. And they dwell in low vibration and 'incite' low vibration in others; not the part of/GOD that springs to mind when I think about it, but then I never actually 'bought' that book, that B.S. was too much to swallow.

If no one hearkens to his voice or follows him except a few select people, and they're attacked constantly and threatened with true annihilation by those who don't follow him, obey him, or refrain from blatant evil, what else could be done to protect the 'chosen' people so that the root of Jesse could even come forth to 'save the world' from sin?

How else could they be preserved?

Evil continuously is a real bad thing. It seems throughout history, when man has become evil continuously, and nothing Earthly can stop it, 'God' got involved. Usually that involved a lot of evil men dying. You could say it even most recently happened with World War II. The flood was to kill men who were evil continuously, and also the supposed abominations which came about after the 'angels' 'fell' and manipulated man.

Evil continuously is pretty bad. In my opinion, it's even worse than say, ISIS. They are as close as you can get in modern times I suppose, but even they at least *think* they're doing the right, moral, Godly thing. Imagine if the concept of God was completely removed from the equation, and you had men roaming the earth who's only intent was to kill, rape, steal, destroy, and pervert all that exists and everyone there-in.

I think within a few generations, we could see this level of pure evil coming to fruition again more often in the world; especially the western world which is already built on and dominated by, sin.

a reply to: Entreri06

You have to be properly programmed for the love to be revealed. It's not revealed to "non-believers".

You need repetition, reinforcement and practice. Check your free will at the door. You'll understand everything after you complete the program.

originally posted by: r0xor
If no one hearkens to his voice or follows him except a few select people, and they're attacked constantly and threatened with true annihilation by those who don't follow him, obey him, or refrain from blatant evil, what else could be done to protect the 'chosen' people so that the root of Jesse could even come forth to 'save the world' from sin?

Drown everyone in the world, children and babies included!

Well of course I'm just a mere mortal though, that's about as a simple remedy as I could come up with. But a God, a being of omniscience and omnipotence could surely come up with a much more intelligent plan to rid the world it created of the beings it also created....

Evil continuously is a real bad thing. It seems throughout history, when man has become evil continuously, and nothing Earthly can stop it, 'God' got involved. Usually that involved a lot of evil men dying.

Lots of children too.

You could say it even most recently happened with World War II. The flood was to kill men who were evil continuously, and also the supposed abominations which came about after the 'angels' 'fell' and manipulated man.

All the soldiers that fought the Nazis were evil? did the Nazis deploy angelic abominations on the battlefield?

Evil continuously is pretty bad. In my opinion, it's even worse than say, ISIS. They are as close as you can get in modern times I suppose, but even they at least *think* they're doing the right, moral, Godly thing. Imagine if the concept of God was completely removed from the equation, and you had men roaming the earth who's only intent was to kill, rape, steal, destroy, and pervert all that exists and everyone there-in.

Is the concept of god the only thing stopping people from killing, raping, stealing, destroying and perverting all that exists?

There are lots of people that do not believe in things like gods, and they don't do any of those things. Is the concept of a god the only thing that stops you from doing those things?

I think within a few generations, we could see this level of pure evil coming to fruition again more often in the world; especially the western world which is already built on and dominated by, sin.

Weirdly, people have been saying the same thing over the past 2,000 years.....

Or did you just mean Jessie from Breaking Bad?

originally posted by: PsychoEmperor
a reply to: Entreri06

The argument would of course be that you could not begin to comprehend God's Plan. Somethings like "genocide" to you on this earth in your small lifetime might seem terrible, but to the God in the Christian Bible? Someone who created the entire Universe and everything in it? It would barely be anything.

The other side is you don't believe in God, so why even bother worrying about whether he's love or not? In your opinion, he doesn't exist, right?

IMHO the bible is completely wrong. While doing the religion debate I get "god is love" a lot. Just seems completely illogical to me when considering his actions.

I've always wondered how religious freaks can explain a service man killing a person during war, especially since most if not all wars are started because of insane religious people. If religion were banned the world would be a better place. God is only love if your praying under a white Jesus and not a queer, remember Christians? Let's get it together here.

a reply to: Entreri06

The God of the OT is infact the God of the NT, and He has the right to defend the people He loves, even if that includes violence. He is the one that created us and put us into this training matrix that we call the world, so it is His right to take you out when and where He pleases.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

Drown everyone in the world, children and babies included!

Well of course I'm just a mere mortal though, that's about as a simple remedy as I could come up with. But a God, a being of omniscience and omnipotence could surely come up with a much more intelligent plan to rid the world it created of the beings it also created....

But see you can always do that, forever. You can always look at anything God has ever supposedly ever done and say he did it wrong, poorly, foolishly, or that you or another God could have done it better. One can question God until they expire from old age. The flood happened. Whether or not 'God' directly decided for it to happen, or that it was just poor weather (lol), is the issue. No one will ever know the true answer with 100% certainty because no one has a time machine. I leave open the possibility of either, while people who argue against this typically are convinced that 'God' has absolutely nothing to do with it, and doesn't even 'exist'.

It seems that all benevolent 'God' plays by a certain set of rules; that is, some sort of a 'veil' concept. He doesn't appear before men, he doesn't directly meddle with men's affairs unless the fate of the world should rest on it. When he does cause something, it happens in a manner that can usually be explained by a freak incident or scientific anomaly, so that the so-called 'veil' isn't broken and free will of men, the highest creation on Earth, isn't influenced by things that God feels it shouldn't be (including coming down from the sky and having a picnic with all his beloved little children).

Lots of children too.

If referring to the flood, unfortunately, yes that also happened. If it was 'divinely caused', then the genetic lines of these children had been permanently tarnished by the so-called 'sons of God' breeding with the 'daughters of Man', causing abominations and 'giantism'. Whether that's all a load of BS or not, again, goes back to the idea that 'the world may never know'.

Now, if they died only because the world was full of men who's hearts were evil continuously, and that was the only reason for the flood, then in God's wisdom, he saw what the near future on Earth would hold if he didn't intervene, but was limited by his own "set of rules" that he plays by that no one knows the true details of, but could be thought of almost like laws of physics in their design and function. You do know that an all-powerful being would have limited himself in his actions on this plane if this plane were to be able to play out on its' own to begin with, right? God can't just pop in and decide that the Moon no longer has a gravitational pull because he decides to change the existing laws of physics, or of anything else for that matter, whether he likes it or not, and whether it has grown into something he may not have originally intended. How could he not have intended it? Maybe he limits his own foresight for the sake of fun.

Being all powerful would get boring for all of eternity.

All the soldiers that fought the Nazis were evil? did the Nazis deploy angelic abominations on the battlefield?

No. There were good and evil men on all sides in all factions. It's just that the leadership of certain factions were hell-bent on doing what they were doing, and trying to shape the future of the world forever genealogically, culturally, and religiously. 'God' saw that the Jews would be annihilated for eternity, along with many others, and many things would never happen on Earth. Prophecies and events would never play out. God's rule book in this case allows for an intervention if it maintains the so-called 'veil' concept, which is nearly always a requirement. Thus, the nations of the world rose to meet the threat even from a disadvantage at the beginning and, in short, "saved the world".

Is the concept of god the only thing stopping people from killing, raping, stealing, destroying and perverting all that exists?

No, man can and does form that way naturally. The concept of God will mean little to nothing to that man. However, if the men surrounding that man, that live on Earth are followers of God in the true sense of being truly good in their ways, they'll come together to make sure that they stop the bad, evil men from being able to carry out their debaucheries on other people, places, and things. This is why the concept of God is needed to fight evil. So that no matter what terrible things mankind decides to come up with and indoctrinate itself with, even if they were the worst ideologies and weapons ever devised, there'd still be good people to stop them.

Weirdly, people have been saying the same thing over the past 2,000 years.....

Ironically, they've only been able to say anything at all for a few hundred thousand years...
Yet, look at all that's changed in a mere 2,000 years. Unprecedented in recorded history.

originally posted by: r0xor
The flood happened. Whether or not 'God' directly decided for it to happen, or that it was just poor weather (lol), is the issue.

I'd love to see your evidence for this.

When he does cause something, it happens in a manner that can usually be explained by a freak incident or scientific anomaly, so that the so-called 'veil' isn't broken and free will of men, the highest creation on Earth, isn't influenced by things that God feels it shouldn't be (including coming down from the sky and having a picnic with all his beloved little children).

Can you give me a list of ten such incidences?

If referring to the flood, unfortunately, yes that also happened. If it was 'divinely caused', then the genetic lines of these children had been permanently tarnished by the so-called 'sons of God' breeding with the 'daughters of Man', causing abominations and 'giantism'. Whether that's all a load of BS or not, again, goes back to the idea that 'the world may never know'.

You're asserting it as fact though. Please, let's see the evidence.

You do know that an all-powerful being would have limited himself in his actions on this plane if this plane were to be able to play out on its' own to begin with, right? God can't just pop in and decide that the Moon no longer has a gravitational pull because he decides to change the existing laws of physics, or of anything else for that matter, whether he likes it or not, and whether it has grown into something he may not have originally intended. How could he not have intended it? Maybe he limits his own foresight for the sake of fun.

Being all powerful would get boring for all of eternity.

How do you know any of this? I'm going to go on a limb and assume that you have exactly zero of the fanciful qualities just described. so how do you know what it's like?

No. There were good and evil men on all sides in all factions. It's just that the leadership of certain factions were hell-bent on doing what they were doing, and trying to shape the future of the world forever genealogically, culturally, and religiously. 'God' saw that the Jews would be annihilated for eternity, along with many others, and many things would never happen on Earth. Prophecies and events would never play out. God's rule book in this case allows for an intervention if it maintains the so-called 'veil' concept, which is nearly always a requirement. Thus, the nations of the world rose to meet the threat even from a disadvantage at the beginning and, in short, "saved the world".

Interesting how clearly one can assert 'goddidit" after the fact. For anything. And everything. Holocaust? God did it. Axis defeat? God did it. Rise of the Soviet empire? God did it. Fall of the same/ God did it. etc.

Maybe god did do it. More likely it's just an example of intellectual laziness on the part of someone who happens to beleive in god.

No, man can and does form that way naturally. The concept of God will mean little to nothing to that man. However, if the men surrounding that man, that live on Earth are followers of God in the true sense of being truly good in their ways, they'll come together to make sure that they stop the bad, evil men from being able to carry out their debaucheries on other people, places, and things. This is why the concept of God is needed to fight evil. So that no matter what terrible things mankind decides to come up with and indoctrinate itself with, even if they were the worst ideologies and weapons ever devised, there'd still be good people to stop them.

Then how is it atheists are still repulsed by murder, rape, genocide, etc? How is it every society on earth, regardless of faith, all through history, managed to come up with the same basic set of laws, which happen to reflect "laws" witnessed in every other animal that lives in groups? And how is it that the Abrahamic faiths have perhaps the most clauses and exceptions for when these "laws" do not apply, and beleivers can ride forth to rape, kill, pilalge, burn, torture, and otherwise cause carnage?

Ironically, they've only been able to say anything at all for a few hundred thousand years...
Yet, look at all that's changed in a mere 2,000 years. Unprecedented in recorded history.

This is because technology is both cumulative (inventions stay invented) and exponential (each advance in technology allows several more advances in technology.) Thus human technological advancement looks like the letter j, a shallow curve that rapidly becomes a vertical line on a graph.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Entreri06

The God of the OT is infact the God of the NT, and He has the right to defend the people He loves, even if that includes violence. He is the one that created us and put us into this training matrix that we call the world, so it is His right to take you out when and where He pleases.

The isrealites didn't defend against the phillisteans... God told them to invade and kill every man, woman and child.


You were pretty honest in Your assment besides that. I just get a little tired of hearing the whole "Jesus/god is love" stuff.
It's not a logical rebuttal. It's like blame shifting.

originally posted by: TheTengriist

I'd love to see your evidence for this.

I'm not asserting that Noah even existed, much less Utnapishtim of Epic of Gilgamesh lore existed, or that God directly caused it to even happen. I'm just saying there is some evidence that water levels rose high for a short time in the past XX,000 years, causing many homo sapiens to die. The same evidence says that genealogically, the current Earth's population of humans descends from as small as 10% or less of a remainder of survivors. The same bologna that gets tied in with the tales of Atlantis. If it seems like I'm reaching for new mythological books to draw from, it's only because my point is that the most recent big flood was not just a biblical or abrahamic idea.

Can you give me a list of ten such incidences?

Quite honestly, yes, it'd just take me a little bit of time. Let me get back to you on that.

You're asserting it as fact though. Please, let's see the evidence.

True, I errored there. There is no absolute proof to show you. See time machine statement.

How do you know any of this? I'm going to go on a limb and assume that you have exactly zero of the fanciful qualities just described. so how do you know what it's like?

The truth is, they are fanciful assumptions made by one homo sapien in his limited capacity to try to understand and describe the infinite that is the Creator of the Universe. That's all most religion really is, if you get down to it.

Interesting how clearly one can assert 'goddidit" after the fact. For anything. And everything. Holocaust? God did it. Axis defeat? God did it. Rise of the Soviet empire? God did it. Fall of the same/ God did it. etc.

True in the sense that we do not know if God truly had a hand at all in any of the events that transpired during World War II. I'm simply presenting the idea that it is indeed possible, and maybe to some, probable.

Then how is it atheists are still repulsed by murder, rape, genocide, etc? How is it every society on earth, regardless of faith, all through history, managed to come up with the same basic set of laws, which happen to reflect "laws" witnessed in every other animal that lives in groups? And how is it that the Abrahamic faiths have perhaps the most clauses and exceptions for when these "laws" do not apply, and beleivers can ride forth to rape, kill, pilalge, burn, torture, and otherwise cause carnage?

All societies haven't come up with the same basic set of laws, far from it, that is IMO incorrect. In all of human history, really?!

But good point regarding Abrahamic faiths. They do come from a former time in history when things were much lower on that j curve of yours and they were written into text at that time. Set in stone from there on. Not subject to edit. Imperfect forever. Just like humans.

This is because technology is both cumulative (inventions stay invented) and exponential (each advance in technology allows several more advances in technology.) Thus human technological advancement looks like the letter j, a shallow curve that rapidly becomes a vertical line on a graph.

a reply to: Entreri06

The isrealites didn't defend against the phillisteans... God told them to invade and kill every man, woman and child.

Look at it from God's perspective, from out side of our time capsule. What would those Philistine children grown up to be? Baal worshipers? Child sacrificers? Tyrants?

I believe that the God who delivered Israel from slavery knew what He was doing. Perhaps those Philistine children are in heaven now because they never grew up to what their culture dictated.

People tend to think that physical death is the end...it isnt, nor is it tragic. For us, its depressing, but there is a whole world outside of this one.

a reply to: Entreri06

I see people ALL the time say "god is love". Well how can the atrocities of the Old Testament be attributed to a being that is love personified?

Because the claim "God is love" is a cherry-picked fallacy. God is also Righteous, Holy, Just, and full of wrath towards the un-Godly. He is much more than Love.

a reply to: Flesh699

If religion were banned the world would be a better place.

So like North Korea? The #1 most persecuted place on the planet for Christians. Good call.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Entreri06

The isrealites didn't defend against the phillisteans... God told them to invade and kill every man, woman and child.

Look at it from God's perspective, from out side of our time capsule. What would those Philistine children grown up to be? Baal worshipers? Child sacrificers? Tyrants?

I believe that the God who delivered Israel from slavery knew what He was doing. Perhaps those Philistine children are in heaven now because they never grew up to what their culture dictated.

People tend to think that physical death is the end...it isnt, nor is it tragic. For us, its depressing, but there is a whole world outside of this one.

There were multiple tribes conquered for no more crime the believing in another religion. Be like if god told all the Christians to murder all the atheists, Muslims , Jews today....

originally posted by: Entreri06


I see people ALL the time say "god is love". Well how can the atrocities of the Old Testament be attributed to a being that is love personified?

IMHO it's really lazy and illogical thinking. Kinda when your girlfriend/wife accuses you of "your here but your not here". Or your boss tells you to think outside the box....

It's when they (boss/wife) don't even know what they want but are mad at you for not giving it to them.

But back to the point. How can you say some one who.....

Ordered the genocide of the philistines

Caused the flood killing all but one family

Sends all unbelievers to burn in hell

Tortured job over a bet with the devil

Ordered a father to murder his son

Really the list goes on and on, so how can you call that guy LOVE incarnate??

Because justice is love

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Entreri06

The isrealites didn't defend against the phillisteans... God told them to invade and kill every man, woman and child.

Look at it from God's perspective, from out side of our time capsule. What would those Philistine children grown up to be? Baal worshipers? Child sacrificers? Tyrants?

I believe that the God who delivered Israel from slavery knew what He was doing. Perhaps those Philistine children are in heaven now because they never grew up to what their culture dictated.

People tend to think that physical death is the end...it isnt, nor is it tragic. For us, its depressing, but there is a whole world outside of this one.

Speaking of slavery, the New Testament says slavery is perfectly ok...and yes it was the same kinda slavery used in America. Just not based on race. That doesn't seem to be very far up the moral high ground mountain.



I have a big issue with those who point at the Ten Commandments as moral perfection. 3 of the commandments are spent telling you not to worship other gods. While rape, assault, child molestation, slavery, exc were all left off.