The Troops Have Done Nothing for Me.

originally posted by: Entreri06

originally posted by: dismanrc

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
I'm fairly sure the movie "American Sniper" was made in a direct result to more people feeling the way you have. The shock and terror of 9/11 has worn off for the most part.

I've noticed that despite most domestic terrorism NOT being from Muslims, all we hear in our media is fear of Muslims.

There seems to be a concerted effort to keep us afraid from people very far away, and a people that are a very small minority in our own home.

Ask yourself why...

They can try she spent a few years in the Bosnian army fighting the Serbs. She didn't like being told what to do then and she does't like it now.

madworldnews.com...

Just one of many sites talking about the FBI report of 22 Training camps in the US.

THe issue is that you need to focus on the word RADICAL in the term radical Muslims. Not all Muslims are radical.

My wife is Muslim and thinks these jihadist and ISIS types are crazy.

They are trying to talk your wife into joining ISIS. That's why they always focus on the Muslim part. They want to be warriors for jesus( lol) and they need bad guys to do that. That takes the argument of weather Christianity is real away. Then it's about what's worse being Christian or Muslim. Just like the crazies, they want the other 1.799999billion Muslims to buy into the jihad stuff or convert to Christianity. Conservative media is the best recruiting tool aquidea ever had.

originally posted by: rukia
Except they DID do something. They became soldiers while you sat here on your butt.

Doesn't matter if the war is right or wrong.

What the soldiers chose to do was fight for you. Yes they might be misled as well--in fact, I think that they are. But their reason for becoming soldiers was right. And that morality is what they did for you. So at least respect that and don't hate on them.

originally posted by: LadyJae

originally posted by: honested3
You people are brainwashed down to the level of your religion, Patriotism = Christianity in your minds.

God bless America, land of the brainwashed murderes.

You tag yourself as "Thorn in the Atheists Side"; your signature reads "Trying not to fit into the stereotypical mold of a Christian with poor grammar and spelling lol."

I'm throroughly confused honested3: if you are a Christian, how on earth do you spew such hatred??

I am neither brainwashed nor a murderer. I am, however, quite proud of and grateful to our men and women in uniform.

J

It's not good to judge one another.

But yes I agree that speaking out random hatred isn't a very Christian-like thing to do. Also, why would you want to be a thorn in Aethiests' sides? Shouldn't you love them as well and accept them as they are and just be chill? Like, why be all confrontational? Peace haha

The problem the OP means is, sure they might believe they are fighting FOR us, and that's what they signed up for, but due to their orders they are NOT fighting for us, they are fighting to make money for people many americans have never even heard of, and told "you are doing this for america, and to stop terrorism." while in reality corrupt people with lots of money are manipulating things so they can make even more money and gain more power over others at the expense of weaker countries and the resources that they have.

Many veterans that have already served learned this the hard way and would tell you how painful it is to realize the truth, so if they want to fight for me and other americans they will show real courage and patriotism by not fighting the wrong wars, until then don't tell me i need to respect some unquestioning puppet.

a reply to: honested3

i wanna play.

you are right if the people that believe your rights come from a god are right. that god will surely protect your rights when someone comes in to try and take them from you.

please remember that not everyone is as enlightened as you. not everyone is all peace and love. some people and countries would gladly take your rights and lock you away. when someone comes up to you and attacks, beating your @55, wouldnt you like someone to step in and stop it? thats the military, only on a far larger scale.

the military follows orders. in this country (usa) the military is commanded by civilians. the military is the guard dog to the masters house. if you dont like the way the military is used, blame the civilians that give the orders.

one person posted that the military was comprised of "wanna-be alpha males". hate to break it to you, but 99% of the military are far braver than any civilian (caveat: those few civs that truly believe in peace and will willingly take an @55 kicking in the name of that belief are just as brave), and more patriotic*. they ARE alpha. why? cause only alpha are willing to lay it on the line for their country, their fellow citizens, their families. only alpha are willing to submit, to put others ahead of themselves and die if needs be, for the greater good.

the phrase: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." is very accurate.

now, i dont have to agree with you, but i defend your right to be wrong.

* how can you claim to be a patriot, a lover of this country, and yet not show it by signing up and laying it on the line? non-citizens sign up and serve, go to combat and lay it on the line for a country they want to be part of, yet you sit on your duff just spouting how great a patriot you are. a coward is what you are. you take your rights as given, resting on the laurels and lives of dead soldiers that secured those rights. (only intended for the hyper-patriot, like the talking heads on radio and congress, that never served and just blow hot air)

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: RonPalmer

Don't blame the military for the actions of the democratically elected individuals who the public voted for.

I will blame the military when it voluntarily chooses a career that demands it carries out the wishes of said elected individuals - particularly when I have no choice but to pay the taxes that fund them.

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: RonPalmer


If you don't like the way the UK is at home then lobby for something else. Campaign to the local community leaders and your MP.

The military will serve the government in power at that time, whichever one that is. It will work for the policies put in place by the elected cabinet. If you don't like it then use your vote.

More people in the UK voted for the X Factor final than in the last general election. I would suggest that if the public want change they need to work for it. Then again it's just easier blaming the guys on the ground instead of actually doing something about it.

Thanks for the patronising explanation of how democracy is supposed to work - I think I'd already worked that out. But I'm Welsh and we did use our vote (as did Scotland) and still ended up with this awful English government - so perhaps it's you who doesn't understand how politics in the UK actually works.

And I've never even seen the X-Factor. Because I'm not a retard.

a reply to: Nyiah

The day a voluntary job becomes something the "lesser" people are expected to prostrate themselves over while spilling forth sycophancy is the day it wasn't worth squat. We've hit that point, in terms of putting the military on an indisputable pedestal.

Then quit putting us on a pedestal. I never asked you for your thanks or appreciation. I served for the ones I lost.

The military should be held in no higher regard than the local, county or state police. Defense of the people is defense of the people, way to rework a job into something next to godliness. To revere the military & compel others to do the same whether they want to or not is foolish, and one big step closer to fascism. Does that end result make it all worth the tours of duty now?

Can you provide an example of a veteran that expects to be held to a higher standard? Only reason I ask is because I don't know 1 veteran that expects this. How about you go change the way the military is used if you don't like it. It's pretty easy to talk trash behind a computer screen and keyboard, but not so easy to make a change. I joined the military right after 9/11 because I wanted to do what I could for our country. I got out when my eyes opened. What have you done other than troll veterans?

a reply to: RonPalmer

Not being patronising at all. I am fully aware of how democracy works. You seem to be a bit loose on the details though.

More people from your constituency wanted something different than you. Democracy is built around the general principle of the will of the majority. Your views were in the minority of those who were willing to make their voices heard (I don't count the people who don't vote because as far as I'm concerned if you can't be arsed to vote then you can't bitch about the outcome). You shouldn't stamp your feet because democracy didn't work out for you that day.

The UK was built on having a standing military. Soldiers/sailors/airmen have always been needed. Without us the standard of living and the countries place at the international bargaining table would be much worse. This directly affects YOU. An inability to realise this merely demonstrates a one-dimensional view of the way a country runs.

My point in very (very) simplistic terms is;

No military =
Reduced global standing =
Reduced economic influence =
Reduced value of the £ =
Increased cost of goods & services for you =
Increased cost of living for you =
Reduced standard of living for you =
Increased levels of poverty.

I'm not suggesting that the military is the only factor in global influence, but it is an important one. Indeed one of the main reasons that we are part of the UN security council is because we are a nuclear power thanks to our nuclear armed subs etc.

If you prey for rain you have to deal with the mud. The military are asked to do things that are not particularly palatable for much of society. It's why we exist - so you don't have to.

BTW having lived in Wales for a few years and seen the state of the government and local services compared to England, I think you had a lucky escape. Areas of government that have been devolved are ridiculously convoluted and obstructive, but that's another topic.

As a veteran, I kind of support the sentiment of the thread-started -- but I wouldn't make a 100-year blanket statement.

I agree with many of you that we should have a military for our defense. We don't use ours for that, though. That's the problem. Our country feeds off of war. Since the nation's inception, how many years have we not been at war? The number is less than twenty. How can anyone support that? If the government sanctions murder, which it certainly does, how does that absolve people of wrong doing? That's crazy.

I don't understand why we risk the lives of our young people and send them over to foreign lands to murder other countries' young people when we were never under attack. But if you wrap something in enough patriotic velour, I guess it somehow becomes "okay".

I'm not going to try to persuade. You seem pretty adamant on your beliefs. I will just say this. Both of my brothers and I signed up, went there, made it home, (all of us were injured in battles to hold cities that barbarians were slaughtering people the way you see I.S. doing now. I lost a lot of friends who were 18, 19 and ten times the the person you are for saying that. People like you were never in my mind and if you ever were to cross it, it would only be that I wouldn't want you fighting beside me.

I agree with the OP.

I also agree that going to war is probably a harrowing experience...for me, and a lot of other people.

Bum I'm not deluded...there are actually people who want to go to war, they want to fight...on both sides. Like those idiots who ran away to join ISIS - they wanted to be part of that murderous stupidity and you're a fool if you genuinely think there aren't American or British or whatever people who have that same mindset.

Because there are.

Also...OP never said having a military force was wrong or that he didn't want such a thing. I think we all realise that national security is important...but I often look at what we're doing and think...are we the good guys here? I'm not so sure...they just blindly follow orders, regardless of how inhumane they are.

That's not brave, that's mind-control...we've come to this point where it's sort of set in stone...military folk don't disobey orders, like it's some terrible thing. Well they should, that'd be brave in my opinion.

That'd be them doing exactly what they're supposed to - protecting the people of their country...instead of protecting the interests of and enforcing the policies of what are essentially maniacs and psychopaths.

they ain't protecting us...I've no idea what they're doing or trying to do right now.

Ill respect them and be proud of them when they go into battle for the right reasons, instead of pretending to while blindly just ass licking and ladder climbing.

Nice post, OP - I've had this thought many times int he past, you're spot on.

It kills me when people think that the armed forces are comprised of only front line troops used to kill innocent people for no reason.

There are numerous jobs in the armed forces that consist only of helping others.

I was Army EOD. That's Explosive Ordnance Disposal. You see, we don't kill people. We destroy or make safe the things that DO kill people. Sometimes that is our own ordnance but the vast majority of it is not. It's either an IED, or old ordnance that didn't go off (but could, just because it didn't go off the first time, doesn't mean it won't suddenly go off in the future), or stockpiles of ordnance that was never used (and we never want it to be used).

I spent a couple years doing nothing but destroying ordnance. You know what I mean? All those guns that supposedly jump up and kill people? We destroyed tons, literally TONS of them. Stockpiles of bombs? We destroyed those too. And several THOUSAND TONS of old landmines. All ordnance, never to be used against anyone ever again.

We also assist local law enforcement when they encounter an explosive device. So yes, we protect YOU, DIRECTLY, and you don't even know we are there. Not every city or town has a bomb squad, they call on the armed forces to come and assist.

Enough of my high horse, what about the doctor's and nurses that also serve? In a disaster, when local medical resources are exhausted, it is our armed forces, both active duty and National Guard that come to assist.
Is your area about to get flooded? Here comes the National Guard to help sandbag the area to control and prevent flooding.

There are numerous non-combatant roles in the armed forces that benefit you directly without you even knowing it.

But I've said enough...those who do not like the armed forces have already made up there minds, and nothing I can say will change it. But that is OK, because even though I no longer actively serve in the armed forces, I am still fighting to protect your freedom and your rites, whether you want me to or not, because even though I don't know you, I love you. (it may be a stolen line, but it is still true)

Good night my fellow Americans. Take care, have fun, and God bless!

My father didn't choose to join, he was drafted. Many men were during Vietnam. It's not always a choice.

Now I'm going to leave this thread before I say something I certainly will not regret. However, I'm a lady and I'm not going to use the language that would certainly make its way onto the computer screen should I continue.

a reply to: honested3 I partially agree with your statement. Id say the recent conflicts are a fair judgement, as there's no super powerful nation like Germany storming across a continent, killing and enslaving. The recent wars in the middle east are fought under a farse. Its not legal and its not a response to 9/11. Its participants are just uninformed patriots, some of which are despicable. The powers that be know why tho war is being fought and we don't (not fully). I support most troops desire to defend but condemn there gullibility and blindness to the truth.

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: RonPalmer

The UK was built on having a standing military. Soldiers/sailors/airmen have always been needed. Without us the standard of living and the countries place at the international bargaining table would be much worse. This directly affects YOU. An inability to realise this merely demonstrates a one-dimensional view of the way a country runs.

My point in very (very) simplistic terms is;

No military =
Reduced global standing =
Reduced economic influence =
Reduced value of the £ =
Increased cost of goods & services for you =
Increased cost of living for you =
Reduced standard of living for you =
Increased levels of poverty.

I'm not suggesting that the military is the only factor in global influence, but it is an important one. Indeed one of the main reasons that we are part of the UN security council is because we are a nuclear power thanks to our nuclear armed subs etc.

OK, now I am confused - in your earlier response to my initial comment you berated me for blaming the military when all it does is the bidding of whichever government happens to be in power - in other words nothing that they do is actually their fault. Yet now you appear to be claiming quite the opposite - that the military are in fact largely responsible for the UK's place in the world (that doesn't matter, incidentally, if a country's place in the world had the relevance you claim then the top four or five richest and most powerful nations wouldn't also be the top four or five most expensive places to live) and for the cost of living, price of goods and... well everything it seems. It can't be both, can it?

And on the subject of the military's influence in public life - well that's quite worrying, really. Those who choose to enlist in the military have many qualities, loyalty and courage being but two of them (though not universally), but are distinctly lacking in imagination, creativity or any sense of individual thought or expression. And those are the sort of qualities that any culture needs to progress. A society under the level of influence of the military that you claim would be a very dull place - and that isn't the society I recognise in the UK. I mean, when you do have a soldier expressing himself creatively you get James Twatting Blunt don't you?

And I'm fairly certain that my standard of living would increase with a tax bill that didn't include the percentage dedicated to defence.

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: RonPalmer


If you prey for rain you have to deal with the mud. The military are asked to do things that are not particularly palatable for much of society. It's why we exist - so you don't have to.

But they choose to do those things - they are not forced to join the military and so don't deserve my undying gratitude for doing the jobs we pay them for.

a reply to: honested3

Yes they did. They went so you can sit on your couch. Maybe we should bring back the Draft like there was in my generation.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: honested3

Yes they did. They went so you can sit on your couch. Maybe we should bring back the Draft like there was in my generation.[/quote

Whether they went or not, he would still be able to sit on his couch. His premise is sound, his execution, eh, not so much.

He should have asked what rights and freedoms are they protecting anymore? What rights and freedoms have been under threat since WWII?

If we weren't in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., how would our way of life be affected?

The answers are none, none and not at all

I don't recall him attacking the individual soldier but the blind idolization and adoration of all things military, and I agree with him on that. I've seen videos of how our soldiers acted in Iraq, throwing puppies off cliffs and all. Disgusting. I will never support crap like that and I won't take "horrors of war" as an excuse because we do NOT have the draft like there was "in your generation"

I have to agree with you here. This topic brings me to what Terence McKenna said and this is that culture is not your friend, you can realize this when you see the 18 year old kid who is sent to another country to kill its inhabitants for the cause of some political idea. There is a lot of propaganda about joining the military saying that you will be a hero/fighting for a great cause. To me personally its not worth spending my time/giving my soul up to the government. What a strange illusion it must be to think that you were put on this earth to kill or facilitate in killing other human beings. for what? for religion, money, political bull#. we live in a squirrely culture and these ideologies betray. This is brainwashing. If we were more of a psychedelic society people would be more aware of these scams. If you joined the military for personal growth and it makes you happy good for you, its a part of your Journey/karmic path. Don't get out expecting any thanks/respect from the American people because the majority of what you were fighting for maybe wasn't worth putting your life on the line(and murdering), especially for a culture and system that is set to fail if it continues on its path. I also don't agree with the culture of Military, with male dominance and hierarchies, there just doesn't seem to be anything promoting "Humaness" surrounding the situation.

a reply to: mymymy

I don't agree with war and protested the invasion of Viet Nam, Iraq. But I won't blame the troops. My son got an option of signing up or not. My brothers did not. If you don't want war, stop voting for war hawks. Peace or war, we need our troops.

And you also have the freedom of leaving america.

a reply to: MOMof3

If you don't want war, stop voting for war hawks

I've never voted for a war hawk, but yet they all seem to become one

Peace or war, we need our troops.

No one said we didn't, but our troops are supposed to be for DEFENSE

And you also have the freedom of leaving america.

Is that how it still is Mrs. Bush? With us or against us? No middle ground? So much for democracy huh?

And you also have the freedom of leaving america.

Again, so much for "While I disagree with what you're saying I will fight to defend your right to say it" Yep, if I could leave this entire planet I would

a reply to: RonPalmer

You completely missed the point. My point is that the military are a necessity if you want a strong global standing.

The cost of living in the 5 top countries looks high if you look at it per pound but that is off set by the high average household income. In worse off countries there is a big difference in the average income and the basic cost of living. Global economics a complex subject and I don't want to go too far down that line as that is not what this thread is about. I would however suggest you take a look at the subject.

You state that soldiers lack imagination, creativity or thought of expression. I hate this level of generalisation, fuelled by the way the media and film industry portray us. It demonstrates a distinct lack of knowledge or real exposure to the military.

Soldiers represent a cross section of society. There are all sorts of people in the military. There are people from a wide variety of backgrounds with different levels of intelligence and interests, just the same as the rest of society. I hold 2 honours degrees (BSc in Nursing Studies and a BA in Management), am a qualified teacher with Dip in Education and hold a qualification in management coaching. At the same time there are guys I work with who struggle with level 2 maths and literacy. Loads of the boys do some weird and wonderful hobbies after work, and many do very well after leaving the military because of the skills they learned there. By the same note some end up homeless or not doing so well. You can't generalise.

Imagination and creativity is actually very important to us. We often find ourselves in situations that can be waaay outside the average Joes' comfort zone, often with limited resources. These usually require unique solutions. Do you really want someone with you who hasn't got the capability for free thought?

As for your standard of living going up significantly if you didn't fund the military - Only 2.4% of the national budget is actually spent on the military and defence as a whole in the UK (it's 3.8% for the US BTW). As 90% of the tax in the UK is paid by the top 10% of earners I hardly think that the military are bankrupting the average person.

I don't want to be put on a pedestal. I don't know a single soldier who does. We certainly don't think of ourselves that way. It was certain aspects of society who have decided to do that. I don't ask to be revered.

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: RonPalmer

You state that soldiers lack imagination, creativity or thought of expression. I hate this level of generalisation, fuelled by the way the media and film industry portray us. It demonstrates a distinct lack of knowledge or real exposure to the military.

Quite the opposite, actually. My views are based upon 25+ years working with, alongside and for current and former military personnel. From all three services, most ranks, regular and special and from a number of different nations. I stand by my view regarding creativity/imagination - but it is an observation, not a criticism. I might also observe that many 'civilians' lack the discipline, dedication and sense-of-purpose exhibited by those military personnel I have worked with. And, to be fair, members of the military aren't exactly lacking in their own generalisations of non-military individuals, are they?

But I will add that, whatever my perception of the military may be, I am just as disgusted, sickened and angered by images of 18 year-old squaddies returning from Iraq/Afghanistan with horrifying injuries as I am by the deaths of children in those same countries at the 'hands' of brave warriors controlling drones from the comfort of bunkers thousands of miles away. Neither of those things fill me with any sense of martial or patriotic pride. The comments in the posts above would indicate that I'm not alone in that.