Man killed in front of his wife in France in an Horrific Islamophobic attack

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: Answer

Do you have any problems with terms the demonize all those that follow the teachings of Islam?


It is a two way street if you don't like the blind labeling of people.

There's a difference.

Those labels are considered derogatory.

"Islamophobia" is already being over-used to describe behaviors which are clearly not anti-Muslim. Just like "homophobia" and "racism" have become so over-used that people can't have a rational discussion about certain topics without such labels being thrown around.

Such terms are eventually used as blockers for certain topics of discussion.

"You can't talk about poor performance of black schools because that's racist."
"You can't talk about gay men who prefer to use the women's restroom because that's homophobic."
"You can't talk about Mosques being used to inspire terrorism because that's Islamophobic."

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: Shamrock6
I mean isn't part of being a schizophrenic that one has false beliefs, not being able to see what's "real"?

Isnt that like, everybody?

No one really knows, yet we all have our beliefs.
Scientists have been trying to see whats "real" for a few hundred years.
And current estimations are multiverse, holographic universe and computer simulation. We havent come very far.
Some scientists even say that reality isnt real at all, it just appears real. I think even Einstein said as much. Something along the lines of "the most persistent of illusions".

Are you a diagnosed schizo? I'm not. So if you're not, then that would be two people who aren't schizos, ergo it would mean not everybody.

I'm not interested in entertaining Matrix style "what is real?" scenarios. Sorry. Schizophrenia is real. End of.

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: Shamrock6
I mean isn't part of being a schizophrenic that one has false beliefs, not being able to see what's "real"?

Isnt that like, everybody?

No one really knows, yet we all have our beliefs.
Scientists have been trying to see whats "real" for a few hundred years.
And current estimations are multiverse, holographic universe and computer simulation. We havent come very far.
Some scientists even say that reality isnt real at all, it just appears real. I think even Einstein said as much. Something along the lines of "the most persistent of illusions".

Are you a diagnosed schizo? I'm not. So if you're not, then that would be two people who aren't schizos, ergo it would mean not everybody.

I'm not interested in entertaining Matrix style "what is real?" scenarios. Sorry. Schizophrenia is real. End of.

Yes, of course schizophrenia is real. I wouldnt claim otherwise. But some mental illnesses have some very broad "diagnoses".
Just pointing out that none of us know what is real.
They used to lock up women in the mental institute for the mental illness of menopause. Yes, menopause.
Just saying.
Besides Einstein predates Matrix by quite a few decades, Id rather leave hollywood out of it. It belittles the point.

And also to answer your question, I would say this is a case of yet another mentally ill person hurting someone as a result of cuts in the mental health budget and closures of mental hospitals.
Thats pure speculation based on how things have gone in the UK. I dont live in france, I dont know how they run theirs.
I would say if this guy is schizophrenic, then his support in the community was lacking and he probably stopped taking his medication.
All pure speculation.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Depends entirely on the type of schizophrenia.

a reply to: OneManArmy

I get all that. I know the history of the word "hysterics."

My point is that my initial comment wasn't intended to open the door to some "is anything really real?" debate. It was about labeling this incident an islamphobic attack when it was perpetuated by somebody with a diagnosed mental illness, and that illness in and of itself can cause a person to have serious issues with "reality" as in everyday life.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Apparently the kind that makes a person yells "I am your god, I am your Islam" before repeatedly stabbing a person?

This whole story is rather odd on a number of different levels. Seems a bit clamped down now, probably for good reason.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

What depends on the subtype? Whether it can be called an islamophobic attack?

In that case, how about instead of labeling it that already, we wait to find out whether it actually was or not?

a reply to: Shamrock6

No, what depends on the subtype is whether a person is delusional or not.


The delusional aspect usually accompanies paranoia.


Not all subtypes have these symptoms.



& if we're being honest...
When does Islamophobic behaviour ever have a basis in "reality"?



I think it's a cop out to be honest.


Most schizophrenics go through life without harming a soul, more worried about being harmed themselves as with the paranoia and unless backed into a corner you'll rarely see any aggression.




So for him to have this reaction, now, of all times, in the wake of Hebdo...

& not in all the time prior to his diagnosis to me says he was definitely coherent enough to understand what he was doing.




Schizophrenics are not incoherent dribbling morons...

They're highly intelligent.




Anyways, diatribe over.

People can believe what they want.


A man is dead for his faith... & I've seen about 2 people in the entire thread condemn it...

Everything else has been "but terrorists..." or "well Islamophobia is overused..."...
As if the guy who died was a terrorist or not a victim of Islamophobia...




This site gets worse everyday.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

There's no need for the melodrama.

I, for one, don't see the need to scream and rail every time somebody is murdered so I can be sure everybody around me knows I think it was a terrible thing.

The guy's wife says he was yelling things. Okay, got it. So far he hasn't been charged with anything hate-crime related. It's being investigated. So I'll go back to my first question: if this guy was a Christian, and his attacker was an undetermined faith, would we be labeling this as a hate-crime committed by a Christianophobe?

Since when is one person's word "good enough" on ATS? That's the ONLY point I've made here. People were awful quick to label this. If you perceived my comments in any other manner, then I don't know what to tell you. You of all people should know that I, of all people, don't buy into the "all Muslims are evil" campaign.

Take care Charlie. I'm done here.

a reply to: maddy21

Oh hell.

This is going to be a difficult event to cope with sensibly on the part of the communities it is going to most effect. People are going to ignore the fact that the perpatrator here was a diagnosed schizophrenic, and concentrate on his actions.

However, I can see how difficult that would be, because it seems to me that ALL of the terrorists that have committed acts of pure barbarity, are also insane, the only difference being that they have been brainwashed into it, rather than having been born with a neurophysical impediment, or some other pre-existing, perhaps genetic issue.

If there is one thing that I find so concerning about situations like this, aside from the obvious horror of the incidents themselves, it is that looked at coldly, one can see that one persons crazy is viewed as being different than another persons crazy, despite both of them being quite obviously insane. What happened here, as well as in Paris at the offices of Charlie Hebdo, was that insane people, did insane things. Name it what you will, but the root of both acts was only different because of context.

You will have those who will say "ban religion, it kills people", and others will say "ban guns, they kill people", but at the end of the day, what allows one human being to slay another in cold blood is not religion, and it is not guns. It is mental affliction, craziness, whether installed in a person artificially by brainwashing, or come by naturally. With all the madness surrounding these issues, all the furore, it is very easy to loose sight of that.

I find this to be an unfortunate and ironic state of affairs, because loosing sight of this crucial point only adds to the insanity to be found in a population, rather than detracting from it, and that means that so many people will be looking at a bogey man, on both sides of any racial or political debate which results in bloodshed, that they will fail to see that it is the insanity of the situation and of the individuals who do these things, that make bloodshed possible between people at all!

a reply to: Shamrock6

I never said that you think Muslims are evil.


I was commenting on the outcome of the thread itself.



As for your question, yes I'm sure if a Jew or Christian was killed while being told "I'm your God, this is Christianity/Judaism" it would be considered a hate crime.



Take care! See you in another thread hopefully. I'm done here as well.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: dragonridr

There was nothing crazy about this Islamophobe he was coherent enough to bring up religion while he stabbed a man to death then he is coherent enough to not be labelled crazy and excused!

You know Charlie, the more I think about it, I agree with your reaction. Remember the British soldier Rigby? He was attacked by one or more knife wielding men, who were yelling Islamic phrases, but I don't recall anyone giving them the benefit of the doubt they might be schizophrenic. What they did was WAY CRAZY, but it was immediately assumed the attack was a terrorist attack by Muslim fanatics.

I see your point. This should be a two way street.

a reply to: retiredTxn

Yes Txn, I even think they plead insanity, but I'm not too sure how that went down or what the result was.


I had, in my mind, an inclination that the Sydney terrorist also had a screw loose but once the word muslim comes up and it's not the victim, they rarely look at mental incapacity as a reason.


The only reason I doubt this case, is because I hear voices and I've been through the "delusional paranoia" stage in 2012...

The only person I ever hurt backed me into a corner and having met other schizophrenics I've heard no stories of them "losing the plot" so to speak.


What's worse is this seems a premeditated attack to knock on someone's door with a blade and forcing himself in to attack the man...
That's hardly defensive or incoherent.
That's an execution imo.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: retiredTxn

Yes Txn, I even think they plead insanity, but I'm not too sure how that went down or what the result was.


I had, in my mind, an inclination that the Sydney terrorist also had a screw loose but once the word muslim comes up and it's not the victim, they rarely look at mental incapacity as a reason.


The only reason I doubt this case, is because I hear voices and I've been through the "delusional paranoia" stage in 2012...

The only person I ever hurt backed me into a corner and having met other schizophrenics I've heard no stories of them "losing the plot" so to speak.


What's worse is this seems a premeditated attack to knock on someone's door with a blade and forcing himself in to attack the man...
That's hardly defensive or incoherent.
That's an execution imo.

Of course they were crazy whats different is the motivation. You have someone whos willing to cut off someones head for some slight to Mohammad is most definitely crazy. The question becomes who programmed that idea into there heads. Was it religion or something else??

In the case of our man here id say part fear the news media really set a tone with that newspaper being taken over by Muslim extremists. In this case i think our guy saw himself as some sort of hero battling against terrorism. But that aside the act itself of terrorism is simple you aim to change public policy through acts of violence. Like stabbing a soldier to death and telling people more is coming if you dont do things our way. In the case of this man not really terrorism since hes not trying to change public policy he just appears to be several donuts short of a dozen.

Once again western double standards in action ..
Non-muslim kills someone theyre "mentally disabled" .. under influence of drugs .. etc.. etc... etc...

Muslim kills someone theyre a "terrorist" .. "extremist".."militant" .. etc.. etc.. etc...

One more to the body count resulting from charlie hebdo stirring hate .. yet that rag will be allowed to carry stirring hate .. after all free speach more important than human life or in working to build understanding and harmony within communities ..

We now return you to your normal programming of fearmongering.. hatespreading.. warmongering ...proudly sponsored by western governments ..

a reply to: dragonridr

I never said this was terrorism dragon.


My whole point has been to say it was an Islamophobic attack.



My shock, comes from what this thread soon turned into...
A denial of that, or the claims that its overblown, or its revenge...


That's what I've been talking about.

originally posted by: Expat888
Once again western double standards in action ..
Non-muslim kills someone theyre "mentally disabled" .. under influence of drugs .. etc.. etc... etc...

Muslim kills someone theyre a "terrorist" .. "extremist".."militant" .. etc.. etc.. etc...

One more to the body count resulting from charlie hebdo stirring hate .. yet that rag will be allowed to carry stirring hate .. after all free speach more important than human life or in working to build understanding and harmony within communities ..

We now return you to your normal programming of fearmongering.. hatespreading.. warmongering ...proudly sponsored by western governments ..

Is it really western governments actually they are the ones denying it's terrorism because than they would be forced to take action.

Governments never want to admit terrorism operates in there borders bad for business. Whats going on is actions from a small percentage of a group is hurting the entire group. Businesses understand this concept and will go as far as firing an employee to diassociate themselves from an individual's actions.

First thing Muslims need to do is condemn these acts of terror the days of standing by are over because other Muslims see this as approval of there actions. What should happen is there mosque should have condemned this even in Christianity I know the church would have immediately done so. And in fact probably excuminicated. Time for descent Muslims to stop the madness though sometimes I wonder if they don't out of fear they would be next.

originally posted by: dragonridr

First thing Muslims need to do is condemn these acts of terror the days of standing by are over because other Muslims see this as approval of there actions. What should happen is there mosque should have condemned this even in Christianity I know the church would have immediately done so. And in fact probably excuminicated. Time for descent Muslims to stop the madness though sometimes I wonder if they don't out of fear they would be next.

I dont know if you get out much, but muslims havent stopped condemning the terrorist acts done in their name since Charlie Hebdo happened. Every day I hear muslims condemning the terrorists, and hear people demanding to hear their condemnations. OK, now we have established that the condemnations have been very forthcoming, now what?
Where do we go from stern faces and showings of disgust?

The brutal truth:

a) This guy was mentally ill (as the article even says), so applying the term "Islamophobia" will hardly apply.

b) the article ALSO mentions an alleged "islamophobic murder" which happened last week in Dresden.

Further investigation revealed that yes, an immigrant from Eritrea was murdered but they DID NOT FIND THE MURDERER...so how can you make a statement about the murder because of Islamophobia if you don't even fricking know WHO and WHY he was killed?

c) And this is my honest and 100% blunt and brutal opinion: YES, large parts of Europe, the UK, Germany, Spain etc. are currently not too well in their opinion about Islam and the influx of Muslims in our country.

And do we really need to debate WHY?

So yes, maybe "Islamophobia" is making its rounds in Europe for obvious reasons.

Forgotten that we are actually over in the M.E. fighting (radical) Islamists, so they're indeed officially our enemies. So yes, people have Islamophibia for a variety of reasons. Tell me something new.

a reply to: dragonridr

They are at least paying it some lip service: EU Launches Anti-Terrorism Projects With Muslim Countries