A Peaceful and Amicable Request to the President About Religion and the Citizenry

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: WarminIndy




I'm not even Catholic, imagine that.

I would not go into a Mexican community and demand that the police don't have any swinging crucifixes in their publicly funded cars.

Since Mexican police dont fall under US federal law its an entirely irrelevant comparison

But what do you think about firemen who pray, publicly funded firemen, who actually pray for their lives everyday?

I have no problem with what people do in their private lives. Unless they're stopping before going imto a burning building to pray its not my business.

And you were a soldier, right? You were publicly funded as well, should we go to Belgium and dig up the graves of all the soldiers there because they were publicly funded to have crosses and stars of David on their graves?

Placed and paid for by the Belgian and French governments respectively. Not our tax dollars at work. Are there crosses as grave markers at Arlimgton?

But hey, why don't you go into the very publicly funded House of Representatives and demand that Suleiman the Magnificent, Moses and Hammurabi be removed.

Might want to think before you speak. Ive written many letters to congressmen discussing the illegality of religious text displayed in federal buildings and court houses.Code of Hammurabi isnt a religious law though and is the first written law in human history. From a historical perspective, it has a place in a building where laws are written.

Can you then go to the United Nations and ask them to remove this statue

Sovereign territory subject to the same laws as other foreign embassies. Not covered under US federal law.

And all of those places, soldiers dying for it, government built around it and you want to say a sign in a courtyard is a federal offense. Maybe it is an offense to you, but neither you nor I are more important than each other.

Its not an offense to me. Its a violation of federal law. Get over it or fight to change the law. That is your right after all.

Have you been to Chicago? Have you been to Texas? Have you been to Los Angeles? Have you been to Laredo?

But separation of Church and State, how about we remove the All-Seeing Eye of Providence (a religious connotation) from our government. Let's get rid of the Statue of Liberty because she is a religious icon from Rome.

There is no true separation of Church and State in this country, it is impossible to extricate it from us, but I am not saying now nor ever have I implied Christianity should be the major representation. I just don't want Shariah law, which is enacted in some cities.

But if they want to be halal, then let their imams come to factories and bless their halal food like Jewish rabbis do for kosher.

Well, military graveyards, paid for by the military here in the US do have crosses or stars of David. I have seen it myself.

a reply to: peter vlar

And I am sorry if you think that I would not or did not go through the lengths you have to defend my rights. I was not afforded the opportunity to do so. I tried to enlist, but an unfortunate pre-birth condition prevented it, I signed up, went to have the physical and was told I was simply too short, even for the waiver limit. I tried a year of stretching exercises and could not ever meet the waiver limit, so please it wasn't for lack of trying or even not wanting to. I tried, the military simply would not waiver.

And HOW do you get the idea that I hate you? Do you really think because someone disagrees with an opinion makes them haters of you?

PLEASE tell me anywhere in any post I have ever made that makes you think I hate you? Where did you get that at? But did you notice that in the other threads, I have the greatest disagreement with those who spread misinformation, just as you have done here.

PLEASE tell me where I have ever said anything about Wiccans, Pagans or other religious group, other than against the personalities of a few people, who we have a history of disagreements with. I can name a lot of users that I have had very pleasant conversations with, but you would know that if you have not seen every post of mine for the last 3 1/2 years.

My BROTHER is a Celtic Pagan and I have shared that in many, many, many, many threads, but hey, you just like to hate bait, throw the accusation out there and hope it sticks. But since I have NEVER said anything wrong about my brother and actually conversed in threads about him and his world view, you just jumped on something you thought you knew.

So thank you for not knowing about everything I have commented about, but you go right ahead and keep the hate bait alive.

originally posted by: WarminIndy



Have you been to Chicago? Have you been to Texas? Have you been to Los Angeles? Have you been to Laredo?

Yes Yes No Yes. Do you have any evidence that the police in those areas are driving around with crossed or Rosaries hanging from their rear view mirror?

But separation of Church and State, how about we remove the All-Seeing Eye of Providence (a religious connotation) from our government.

Yes, let's do that. I'm all for removing it from currency etc.

Let's get rid of the Statue of Liberty because she is a religious icon from Rome.

Blah Blah Blah. I've heard numerous times now that "Liberty Enlightening the World" is alleged to be a representation of Ishtar/Libertas. There's about as much evidence for that as there is Easter being named after Ishtar. The Statue is a gift from France built with donations and not religious at all and represents friendship between nations and freedom from oppression. Nothing religious about it.

There is no true separation of Church and State in this country, it is impossible to extricate it from us, but I am not saying now nor ever have I implied Christianity should be the major representation.
No, you haven't explicitly said it but I would argue that the implication is there with your arguments that the country was founded on Christianity and it's principles in universal agreement between the founding fathers.

I just don't want Shariah law, which is enacted in some cities.

Complete and utter hogwash. Name the cities that are under Shariah Law please.

But if they want to be halal, then let their imams come to factories and bless their halal food like Jewish rabbis do for kosher.

Sure, why not as long as it falls under the tenets of their faith.

Well, military graveyards, paid for by the military here in the US do have crosses or stars of David. I have seen it myself.

There are nearly 60 different options for religious symbols as well as for atheists to be placed on military grave stones. There is no one promoted or favored. If it was exclusively Christian and limited denominations then I would see an issue
Of violating federal law. But it doesn't and the DOD made sure if that. It's fully legal.

a reply to: peter vlar

Well, we don't have the eye on our debit cards, so keep using that.

Chicago, New York, Laredo..yes, I have seen that.

Do you really think I am anti-every other religion? Let me ask my brother again, who is Celtic Pagan. But maybe it's not good enough for you that I love my brother and he loves me, because we are siblings.

What I have said all along and will say again, if people have it so bad here and religion has treated them so wrongly here, then they are free to go if they want to go.

Tell us though, have you had it so bad here from religious groups?b Has religion here persecuted you?

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: peter vlar

And I am sorry if you think that I would not or did not go through the lengths you have to defend my rights. I was not afforded the opportunity to do so. I tried to enlist, but an unfortunate pre-birth condition prevented it, I signed up, went to have the physical and was told I was simply too short, even for the waiver limit. I tried a year of stretching exercises and could not ever meet the waiver limit, so please it wasn't for lack of trying or even not wanting to. I tried, the military simply would not waiver.

And HOW do you get the idea that I hate you? Do you really think because someone disagrees with an opinion makes them haters of you?

PLEASE tell me anywhere in any post I have ever made that makes you think I hate you? Where did you get that at? But did you notice that in the other threads, I have the greatest disagreement with those who spread misinformation, just as you have done here.

PLEASE tell me where I have ever said anything about Wiccans, Pagans or other religious group, other than against the personalities of a few people, who we have a history of disagreements with. I can name a lot of users that I have had very pleasant conversations with, but you would know that if you have not seen every post of mine for the last 3 1/2 years.

My BROTHER is a Celtic Pagan and I have shared that in many, many, many, many threads, but hey, you just like to hate bait, throw the accusation out there and hope it sticks. But since I have NEVER said anything wrong about my brother and actually conversed in threads about him and his world view, you just jumped on something you thought you knew.

So thank you for not knowing about everything I have commented about, but you go right ahead and keep the hate bait alive.

Way to completely avoid any questions I keep asking and over react based on misunderstanding what was written. I never said you specifically hate me. It was a blanket statement referring to Christians in general and their hatred(or fear) of people who do not share their faith. I've been on the receiving end of that degree of ire both on ATS and in the real world.

I also never said YOU said anything about wiccans. I simply included them in a list of non-Christian individuals.

What disinformation am I spreading and will you give yourself the same attitude for making baseless and unsubstantiated claims as you continue to do? Please name cities or communities under Sharia Law, give examples of non
Believers attempting to destroy or remove Christianity from this country.

As for military service, again... I didn't even refer to it in that context. Yet you claim I am the one spreading misinformation? That's just nuts. There are numerous things people can do to fight for the rights of others. It's the beauty of freedom of speech and freedom of the press.

Congratulations for being guilty of what you accuse me of, misinformation and making claims to see what sticks. At least I can admit when I'm in error and have done so in this thread. Are you willing to do so?

Well, I don't know if this thread is serious or satire, but I'll reply either way. I am a religious-less citizen of this fine nation. I currently live in present day reality and choose to stay here for the remainder of my days. I have always wondered why religious people feel so inclined to try to convert or bash atheists or in your case excommunicate them to some far of land. so in your next open letter to the President, please include a section on full grown adults still believing in fairy tales and what to do with them thank you kind sir and have a wonderful day.

originally posted by: imawlinn
Well, I don't know if this thread is serious or satire, but I'll reply either way. I am a religious-less citizen of this fine nation. I currently live in present day reality and choose to stay here for the remainder of my days. I have always wondered why religious people feel so inclined to try to convert or bash atheists or in your case excommunicate them to some far of land. so in your next open letter to the President, please include affection on full grown adults still believing in fairy tales and what to do with them thank you kind sir and have a wonderful day.

Satire.

Excommunicate? Sorry, that's not the intention, I just said make it easier for them to diplomatically live in a country free of religion. That is all.

Why did you think I was excommunicating? Please reread the OP, I was addressing several points,

1: Some people don't like religion.
2: Some people don't want religion at all anywhere.
3: Some people want to live where there is no religion.
4: Some people want the US to be like other countries.
5: Religion is in the US.
6: Non-religious countries have no diplomatic ties with the US.
7: People should be free to go wherever they want.

But thank you for your last sentence, shows that you appreciate the rights of religious expression.

a reply to: WarminIndy

And that's completely ludicrous. Why should non believers have to leave because others are bullied and can't respect their personal inclinations? I wouldn't think it fair to ostracize any religious group. Religion or the lack thereof is like genitalia. Everyone has their own but nobody wants to see you displaying your genitals in public. Religion is a personal thing and there is a time and place for it. In everybody's face is not the place for it.

If your brother was some stranger would you be so tolerant of him? What
If he pontificated about the superiority of his beliefs and tried proselytizing to you? I'm
Betting any stranger who tried to do so would raise your ire.

As for currency vs. debit cards, I don't use banks and don't have a debit card. Religious mottos have
No place on our currency. Please refer to the treaty of Tripoli for further proof of the secular nature of America per Thomas Jefferson. You know, the one who revised the gospels and rewrote the bible? One of the founding fathers you have resorted to in your insistence that America was founded on Christian principals?

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: WarminIndy

And that's completely ludicrous. Why should non believers have to leave because others are bullied and can't respect their personal inclinations? I wouldn't think it fair to ostracize any religious group. Religion or the lack thereof is like genitalia. Everyone has their own but nobody wants to see you displaying your genitals in public. Religion is a personal thing and there is a time and place for it. In everybody's face is not the place for it.

If your brother was some stranger would you be so tolerant of him? What
If he pontificated about the superiority of his beliefs and tried proselytizing to you? I'm
Betting any stranger who tried to do so would raise your ire.

As for currency vs. debit cards, I don't use banks and don't have a debit card. Religious mottos have
No place on our currency. Please refer to the treaty of Tripoli for further proof of the secular nature of America per Thomas Jefferson. You know, the one who revised the gospels and rewrote the bible? One of the founding fathers you have resorted to in your insistence that America was founded on Christian principals?

Tell me, in layman's terms, where I said "YOU NON-BELIEVERS GET THE BLANK OUT OF MY COUNTRY"? Please be so kind as to point it out.

I am talking about people friggin' complaining so much about how they think it is so bad here that they cry over their "persecution" so I simply said if it is that bad here, allow them to go where is isn't so bad, like North Korea.

So you have people say things to you, guess what, we all do. At least you don't get called "religitard".

And yes, I am tolerant and would be if he were not my brother. Geesh, you really need to see how I am in real life, but then again, you need to read every comment I have ever made. Your criticisms are based in misinformation, because you like to assume a stereotypical image you have of me, that really is not me. But you lump us together.

Tell me, if you have read my posts, exactly what denomination of Christianity am I?

originally posted by: WarminIndy
I am talking about people friggin' complaining so much about how they think it is so bad here that they cry over their "persecution" so I simply said if it is that bad here, allow them to go where is isn't so bad, like North Korea.

Soooo you're talking about Christians leaving the country then?

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: WarminIndy
I am talking about people friggin' complaining so much about how they think it is so bad here that they cry over their "persecution" so I simply said if it is that bad here, allow them to go where is isn't so bad, like North Korea.

Soooo you're talking about Christians leaving the country then?

If Christians want to go, they can go also.

But since religious freedom is here, if Christians go, then what group of religious people would you like to fill the vaccuum?

a reply to: WarminIndy

Why would there be a vacuum?

Religion does not and has not provided anything that cannot be provided in the secular world.

Noththing worthwhile anyway, persecution and division doesn't count...

originally posted by: Prezbo369
a reply to: WarminIndy

Why would there be a vacuum?

Religion does not and has not provided anything that cannot be provided in the secular world.

Noththing worthwhile anyway, persecution and division doesn't count...

If Christians go, a religious group will fill the vaccuum.

I asked which group you want to fill it. I don't care your opinion on what you think religion does, I asked what group. Let's face reality, it isn't that bad here. But freedom of religious expression is guaranteed, and if the religion you don't like goes, there will be another to fill it up, so which group?

originally posted by: WarminIndy

If Christians go, a religious group will fill the vaccuum.

I asked which group you want to fill it. I don't care your opinion on what you think religion does, I asked what group. Let's face reality, it isn't that bad here. But freedom of religious expression is guaranteed, and if the religion you don't like goes, there will be another to fill it up, so which group?

You'd first need to show that there would be a 'vacuum'.....your opinion is on whether or not there would be is irrelevant.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: WarminIndy

If Christians go, a religious group will fill the vaccuum.

I asked which group you want to fill it. I don't care your opinion on what you think religion does, I asked what group. Let's face reality, it isn't that bad here. But freedom of religious expression is guaranteed, and if the religion you don't like goes, there will be another to fill it up, so which group?

You'd first need to show that there would be a 'vacuum'.....your opinion is on whether or not there would be is irrelevant.

It means this....

Suppose that you have a glass of water, ok a certain percentage of that water is Christians, atheists...etc. etc.

When you pour out the part that is Christian, you are left with less water in the glass, so if you want that glass filled to the same level, you have to do what? Refill it. So what do you put in to fill it back to the level?

And if you say you want to fill it with atheisism or secularism, then if you keep pouring out the portions that are Christian or religious, then fill it up with your world views, then you have gotten rid of religion, and hence you have denied freedom of religious expression.

But the same thing happens with every world view. If the glass is ok how it is, then don't worry about it. But notice here, on this thread, even though I disclaimered with "if you are offended, ask yourself why".

Can you really tell me within yourself that you really are offended? And if you are offended, why were you so offended by a post that I said was sarcastic? Is sarcasm reserved for your side?

originally posted by: WarminIndy



Tell me, in layman's terms, where I said "YOU NON-BELIEVERS GET THE BLANK OUT OF MY COUNTRY"? Please be so kind as to point it out.

Is reading comprehension not your strong suit? I never said you stated that. You do keep repeating the same thing over and over like a mantra... If it's so bad here go to a country with no religion. I'm simply replying that it's an entirely preposterous notion. No matter how you try to spin it, you are promoting divisiveness and bigotry with your "satirical" rhetoric. I've said it before and will continue to do so... Nobody should have to leave. Especially over first amendment rights. It's a preposterous notion that one groups constitutional rights take precedence over another's.

I am talking about people friggin' complaining so much about how they think it is so bad here that they cry over their "persecution" so I simply said if it is that bad here, allow them to go where is isn't so bad, like North Korea.

Sorry, but I hear far more Christians on the radio and TV as well as print, crying that Christianity is under attack while liberals coddle Muslims and atheists. from Halloween to New Years,
All I hear about is the "war against Christmas"

If they are all so unhappy feel free to send them to a Theocracy like Saudi
Arabia or Iran. I'm sure they're just a s nice as N. Korea will be.

So you have people say things to you, guess what, we all do. At least you don't get called "religitard".

No, I'm just referred to as the spawn of satan and usually far far worse but I'm trying to stay within the t&C
I'm forced to reign in my temper and be the one to exercise restraint
when high and mighty Christians put on their air of superiority and make disparaging remarks about my children and couple of times TO my children simply because I don't believe in their god. Apparently there's no accounting for how I treat others and live my life let alone the fact that I've stated repeatedly that despite not believing in Niceas 325 interpretation of the nature of Christ, the message attributed to him is a beautiful message and an excellent way to live your life. In that regard I'm actually more Christian than most fervent attendees of mass. And I've never called you a religitard. I'm sorry that people are childish enough to do so unprovoked.

And yes, I am tolerant and would be if he were not my brother. Geesh, you really need to see how I am in real life, but then again, you need to read every comment I have ever made.

That's why it was a question. It wasn't a statement or insinuation. I don't know you personally and try not to make rash statements in the manner you accuse me of.

Your criticisms are based in misinformation, because you like to assume a stereotypical image you have of me, that really is not me.

No, I base my responses directly on the posts I am replying to. No more no less. And
Again, it is YOU who is actually guilty of the misinformation you accuse me of by misunderstanding and/or misreading what I write.

But you lump us together.

Like you're innocent of that? Please... I do make generalized statements but I also stand up for EVERYONES constitutional rights. Whether I agree or not and even when they resort to as hominem and personal attacks against my integrity and
my children. Yup... They really take Christ's message to heart don't they?

Tell me, if you have read my posts, exactly what denomination of Christianity am I?

I don't see how that is pertinent to the discussion. Not like the questions I've asked repeatedly such as 'can
You give any actual examples of non believers attempting to destroy religion in this country. It's your thread and your claim, why won't you back it up? And why haven't you named a single American city under Sharia Law? Another claim of yours. But I'm spreading misinformation? Rightttt

funny, because if you didn't have any nonbelievers you wouldn't have your freedom of speech, where in the bible Does it say you have free protected free speech

a reply to: peter vlar

Of course I am not reading all posts.

Are you really seriously offended to the point that you call me "high and mighty" Are you so morally outraged that you feel you have to flip out so much that all you can see is "Christian says go, I don't like Christian, Christian is evil".

In your world of moral relevance anyway, that's kind of what you have left, in moral relevance am I wrong?

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
funny, because if you didn't have any nonbelievers you wouldn't have your freedom of speech, where in the bible Does it say you have free protected free speech

Huh?

See, misinformation.

OK, Peter Vlar, you would have Shariah here if Christians didn't stop it, because all you guys are doing is saying "coexist".

a reply to: WarminIndybut if you didn't have secularists, you'd have no freedoms to lose it would still be a theocracy