Europe’s Leading Rabbi: Jews Must Begin Carrying Guns

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: DJW001

Nope, just you because you've now tried to paint not one but two separate attacks in France as "against Jews and those protecting Jews" when they were anything but, hence why I suspect you have an agenda.

These weren't "anti-Semitic" attacks, these were Islamic extremists attacking our way of life - all of us, not just Jews.

Where did I say they were only attacking Jews? If you bother to read my posts, you would see that I say that they are attacking people and institutions that they find threatening. Free speech is one such institution, and Jews are one such class of people. When they attacked Charlie Hebdo, it was clearly an assault on Free Speech. When they shot up a kosher supermarket, are you honestly implying it was not an attack on Jews, but on consumerism?

a reply to: DJW001

You have now made several posts in which you have claimed these were attacks against Jews, first and foremost, when they are nothing of the sort.

Let me get this straight... days after an Anti-Semitic gunman used a kosher supermarket as a shooting gallery, you are scoffing at the idea that there is Anti-Semitism in Europe?

The Jews killed in 2012 were not cartoonists

In this case, linking to a previous attack where French soldiers were attacked

Why are you trying to deny that the attack in the supermarket was intentionally targeted against Jews, because they, too, are perceived to be an enemy of Islam. Considering Jews to be an existential threat is a functional definition of Anti-Semitism.

Incidentally, several of the cartoonists were "ethnically Jewish."

In this post, you go to great lengths to make out like the targets were predominately Jewish - even going so far as to claim several of the Cartoonists were "ethnically" Jewish, despite this not being remotely true. Only one was of Jewish descent.

Those soldiers were killed because they were trying to protect Jews. They were not the primary target.

This one about the 2012 attack - again, just making stuff up to support your "Jews under attack" line.

Okay, I was posting from memory without reviewing the facts first. Yes, some of the killings seemed to be anti-French colonial as well as Anti-Semitic

Once again, trying to distort the 2012 attack into something it wasn't while focussing on the Jewish aspect

All of the above within a page and a half of this thread..

These attacks were an assault on Liberty and common decency - by trying to lift the Jews above everyone else affected, like you are, as if they are worthy of special treatment is really sad to see.

a reply to: stumason

Once again, trying to distort the 2012 attack into something it wasn't while focussing on the Jewish aspect

And you keep denying that there was an Anti-Semitic aspect to each of those attacks! If you were a Jew living in France, how would you feel knowing that a trip to the kosher supermarket could be deadly?

a reply to: DJW001

There was no more an "anti-Semitic slant" than there was against freedom of speech, democratic values and modern civilisation.

It is you trying to lift the anti-Semitism above and beyond - I am just trying to keep it all on the straight and level. You are hyping up this "threat" to the Jews to be something bigger than it is, especially when more Muslims and Christians have been killed in both attacks than Jews.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: peter vlar

Fair enough - but it was a point worth making for the sake of your compatriots who seem to think we are born into bubble-wrap and kept that way until death.

Oh, I most definitely agree that the point was well worth making and I totAlly understand why you would misconstrue my reply as based heavily on ignorance. It does seem to be the American way all too often.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: DJW001

There was no more an "anti-Semitic slant" than there was against freedom of speech, democratic values and modern civilisation.

It is you trying to lift the anti-Semitism above and beyond - I am just trying to keep it all on the straight and level. You are hyping up this "threat" to the Jews to be something bigger than it is, especially when more Muslims and Christians have been killed in both attacks than Jews.

All I am trying to do is point out why the Rabbi's course of action is reasonable. It is not part of some dark Zionist conspiracy, but a logical response to the Anti-Semitism that is a fact of French life. I asked you if you thought it was entirely a coincidence that it was a kosher supermarket that got shot up. Did the gunman really want to shoot up Galleries Lafayette but couldn't find a parking space?

The rabbi is representing his community in asking for the EU to make it easier for members of his community to defend themselves. If he was requesting additional police protection, people would be screaming about using their tax dollars. Every group that feels threatened-- Muslims, Blacks, single mothers, gays-- can all reasonably make the same request. I have literally said this from my very first post on this thread.

Anti-Semitism is a fact. Ask yourself how you would react to the supermarket shooting if you were a Jew living in Paris?

a reply to: DJW001

It's not reasonable to suggest all civilians be armed to protect themselves against terrorism. It's a Barmy idea.

originally posted by: DJW001
All I am trying to do is point out why the Rabbi's course of action is reasonable. It is not part of some dark Zionist conspiracy, but a logical response to the Anti-Semitism that is a fact of French life. I asked you if you thought it was entirely a coincidence that it was a kosher supermarket that got shot up. Did the gunman really want to shoot up Galleries Lafayette but couldn't find a parking space?

"Anti-Semitism" has been overplayed and it is here. Every community faces some friction from others no matter if they are Jewish or not, but this constant lifting of "anti-Semitism" above all others is what irks me. Crime is crime and bigotry is bigotry - attacks on Jews shouldn't be treated as any more special than attacks on Christians, Gays, Muslims or even the Welsh...

I get what you're saying, I just don't agree because of the above. The moment you start giving special status of one group over another is when it all gets worse. 1,400 (at least) white girls were sexually abused in Northern England by Pakistani men - should we request that all Englishmen in Rochdale be allowed to arm themselves to protect their daughters - if not, why not? That is far more White people abused than all of the serious anti-Semitic attacks in France since World War 2 and certainly far worse than a few smashed headstones, which is what most of this "anti-Semitism" is in France.

originally posted by: DJW001
The rabbi is representing his community in asking for the EU to make it easier for members of his community to defend themselves.

They already can, within exsiting law. Asking for special status is not only illegal, but will only lead to more problems.

originally posted by: DJW001
If he was requesting additional police protection, people would be screaming about using their tax dollars.

They already have got that extra Police (and Army) protection!

originally posted by: DJW001
Every group that feels threatened-- Muslims, Blacks, single mothers, gays-- can all reasonably make the same request. I have literally said this from my very first post on this thread.

And it would be as absurd and I would shoot it down all the same.

originally posted by: DJW001
Anti-Semitism is a fact. Ask yourself how you would react to the supermarket shooting if you were a Jew living in Paris?

The same way I reacted to a British soldier having his head cut off, or the 52 people killed on 7th July 2005, or the 705 British soldiers and 1,840 civilians killed during The Troubles...

Call for those responsible to face justice - end of.

a reply to: stumason


So typical of the type of reply by anyone defending jewish action - rudeness

You don't give any proof about what you say so how do we know its true?

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: stumason


So typical of the type of reply by anyone defending jewish action - rudeness

You don't give any proof about what you say so how do we know its true?

Huh? Jewish defender.... Odd, as I've just been in a two page argument with another poster over these attacks not being focussed on Jews and not being anti-Semitic - Me thinks you've started early on those Saturday afternoon drinks...

First of all, I wasn't being rude - I was trying to be funny by telling you to "disengage your gob smacking device" as you said you were "gob-smacked"....

Secondly, why should I offer "proof" to something that is easily and readily available online for you to check yourself!... Are you telling me that you simply believed what the other poster had said and you didn't bother to look it up to see if it was true?

Oh dear....

Here you go, you silly boy. Next time, why not check the things other people say for yourself:

Independent
Shomrim - Wiki
Shomrim - Huffington Post

a reply to: WilsonWilson

I agree with your sentiments but mass immigration has changed this country forever because people have a habit of bringing their baggage with them, unless you get rid of the mass of immigrants. Do you honestly think that after the Lee rigby murder that we can go back to being the same 'safe' people again?

a reply to: Shiloh7

We suffered terrorist attacks for years from the IRA, we didn't ask for arming of the general populace then.

a reply to: stumason

Yes I did because their posts are usually correct.

Your humour doesn't come through as actual humour - but each to their own and as yet I haven't touched a drop of the amber liquid as I have to accompany my beloved to the shops.

The problem is - as I see it two things: the jews expecting special treatment and their lobbying in order to get it and the second, that because no action is ever taken against israel for any of the mass culling and murders of palestinians and the way they are treated - people need to express their anger at this and jewish residents outside of israel are the representatives of that country. Like islam jewish politics are part of a way of life and cannot be separated which means that both these two desert religions are out of kilter with christian countries and that needs to be recognised because its actually a huge difference.

There are some jews who don't even think that israel should exist however you cannot take out of the equation the way MOSSAD operates in muslim countries and also I suspect within in the EU, US and UK again for which they never get caught or sanctioned against. I suspect manhy people will be thinking of Netanyahoo saying that if France backed the Palestinian requests France would suffer. - and it has and somehow President Holande didn't want himn at the peace march wo we know there is an undercurrent running now. Israel also has nuclear weapons and won't conform to international law so until these problems are resolved and they take responsibility for their deliberate choices and actions, I suspect jews are going to bear the criticism that israel gets away from. I know netty wants everyone to 'go home' but some don't like him either and certainly wouldn't align themselves with him.

However, the jewish privilege is a very hot debated topic with precious little sympathy for this group any more and Israel's actions are coming home to roost. People aaren't stupid and know who created our banking systen and the monetary crime again not acted against. A lot of money is raised by jewish people living overseas for israel and this makes them a part of the repercussions for their own actions.

I suspect most people in Europe and the UK don't want any of this ancient fight brought to their doorsteps but our government is unhappily involved but it does has responsibility to protect us all and not just any single group above the rest of the population.

a reply to: WilsonWilsonwww.youtube.com...

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
a reply to: Shiloh7

We suffered terrorist attacks for years from the IRA, wewe are seeing a repeat of the year 2001, where for months the corporate media promoted the idea of Al Qaeda as Uber Villains we were supposed to be afraid of, because they were coming to get us unless we did what the Government told us and got them first. Today the Government is assuring us that Al Qaeda, Bobo Haram, Saudi Arabia, and Muslims in general are in the final stages of a plot to carry out multiple terror attacks on Europe and the United States. Funny how they can know there is a plot, and that it is in its final stages, but don't know what the target is, or who is doing it.

originally posted by: Shiloh7
Yes I did because their posts are usually correct.

Personally, even if a post has been made by another I do trust, if it is something I do not know about myself I will still look it up so I can know first hand, not what others have told me.

originally posted by: Shiloh7
Your humour doesn't come through as actual humour - but each to their own and as yet I haven't touched a drop of the amber liquid as I have to accompany my beloved to the shops.

It's dry, I admit, but much of it is "lost in translation" through the medium of text. I did think being told to "disengage the gob smacking device" might have been a bit obvious though

As for the rest, preaching to the choir, matey. I'm still puzzled why you think I am a "Jewish defender" as you alluded to in your previous post.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
So carrying guns will prevent gun violence?

Certainly works wonders in the states doesn't it?

Actually, for a variety of reasons, yes, it seems to be working out alright here in the US. Our homicide rates were actually much higher before the widespread passage of concealed carry laws over the last 20 years or so. Our homicide rate is currently the lowest its been in decades.

a reply to: vor78

But it still much higher than countries that do not have these laws. And armed civilians means armed police which leads to the shoot first culture so prevalent among your police. I actually find the thought or concealed guns being carried by civilians and an armed police force scarier than the terrorists.

a reply to: vor78

That may be true - down from 9.8/100,000 to 4.7/100,000 in 2010 - but is still higher by 3 or 4 times (France and the UK for example are 1 per 100,000) that of all EU countries bar Lithuania and Estonia.

a reply to: stumason

It is higher, I'm not arguing that. I'm only saying that concealed carry has not resulted in an increase in gun violence here, as was implied by the prior poster. In reality, the opposite has happened (though again, there are many reasons for that, not just the changes in gun laws). We actually have about 10,000 fewer yearly homicides now than in the early 1990s.