Russia Cuts Off Ukraine Gas Supply To 6 European Countries

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: s3cz0ne

This still hasn`t been fulfilled...

The Grand Chessboard

American Primacy And It's Geostrategic Imperatives

Key Quotes From Zbigniew Brzezinksi's Seminal 1998 Book

Link

Full PDF

That should give you an idea about things.

China isn`t looking into occupation of Russia because it needs 500 million Chinese to do so...as long as China gets its energy supplies at a normal price it won`t burn itself on it. China probably wants to control the Pacific with economics and nothing more.

Controlling big empires cost a lot, just look at the US now and what happened to the Soviet Union going bankrupt.

Why throw out crazy numbers?

That's completely untrue, for starters Russia has what? 130 Million people why would a Chinese occupying force need to out number the Russians nearly 5-1 lol

Aside from that, the whole of Siberia and the vast majority of the Chinese border has all of 6-7 Million people, 4-5 Million or more Chinese migrant workers cross into Siberia every year, aside from the Russia Nuclear option virtually NOTHING stops China from simply taking Siberia if it just felt like it, the main reason the Chinese don't aside from the aforementioned reason would be simply that every season more Siberians take Chinese wives/husbands and in X amount of time Siberia will be Chinese anyway.

I don't know where people get their info from... 500 Million, lol China could just tell its migrant workers to not come back one year and back them up with couple of 100 Thousand Guerrillas and Siberia would be a lost cause via any conventional thing Russia could hope to do about it


Count on China helping Russia? Maybe they leave the Russians open to believe that, but realistically Russia is ripe for the Chinese pickings if there is a major war, if Russia is occupied in Ukraine and Eastern Europe? China will take that Cobra down like an angry Mongoose... There is Trillions of Dollars in the Northern wasteland, to fight the USA as China you have to shoot your self in the foot economically then maintain a supply line past the US Navy anyway to get..."anything" at all back from the war...To get Siberia you have to walk guerrillas in during the spring take a few pipeline supply points and dig into the snow with rifles and no one and no technology in the world will get you out of that vast nightmare terrain you, there are Millions of Kilometers of woods and snow and nobody lives there by any modern geographic demographic standard

China is Never, ever going to side with Russia in a war and if they do... it will be because it's an excuse to put boots down and never leave after the fact

originally posted by: SheopleNation
a reply to: Dabrazzo

That was a well written article, thank you for the link. I personally believe that Beijing is bent on future aggression, because they really have no other choice when you think about it. From their point of view is what I mean by that. As we focus on Russia and desert rock throwers in the middle east, It's China who is the true threat to the survival of the West at the end of the day.

I have a book called The Coming Conflict With China, by Richard Bernstein, Ross H Munro. I purchased this book back in 1998 I believe it was, and most of it's predictions have all come forth. The Chinese have their eyes on not only more resources, but the reunification of Taiwan with the Motherland. It would be quite the economic prize for her if that goal was ever accomplished.

I think today, we have here in the West some new age foolish mortals who are banking on another revolution in China, but one that will champion a Western Democracy like Government. However these idiots do not understand how the Chinese think, they are a very calculated and patient people. Make no mistake about it, ruthless too. It would be a serious mistake to underestimate the long term resolve of this very intelligent and ancient culture.

The West has no choice but to aid in the Military build up of Japan. The unification of South and North Korea is part of this plan, and it has to occur in order for the end goals to be reached. Russia has a choice to make, because the next 20 years are going to decide who holds the cards on this planet, and who folds into eternal slavery. Unfortunately, It is the way of this World. ~$heopleNation

Ah, here's one to twist your noodle

WHY?

Why as America opt for the survival of the West? Asians have surpassed Latinos as the number one immigrant group this last 2 years, mainly they are entrepreneurial, now rank no 1 demographically as income earners, parts of the US like Northern Cali San Fran as example run 30% Asian almost, by numbers even if we continue holding them back they will out number Latinos and be second to Caucasians by 2050, Australia and Canada already are starting to breach 14% (higher than African Americans) which just shifted down to 12.7% and we have an African American president... realistically, the only sector of the US economy thriving is the Pacific Rim and tech, the second richest burb in LA behind Beverly hills has shifted Asian and above that from San Fran to Vancouver Canada Technology and Asians and wealth dominate while the rest of the nation is stagnant, clean, they have a great well developed culture, great diet and they are modern, Atheist very often bringing no religious bs or tolerance of it and more socially concious of those around them than anyone else...

So why?

Why should America remain focused on the downward spiral of elsewhere?

We ARE also a Pacific rim nation, what exactly are we holding on to? We are involved with Islam the perpetual nightmare of Russia and Europe who.... despite the EU will never be a whole culture like China... China who owns the hell a lot of USA land, money and investment, probably more than anyone...

What are we holding on to across the Atlantic? (not saying don't be friends) but China has 20 cities bigger and better than NY, all the action is there now... why not embrace the Pacific?

What does London and France offer us but history? presidents all descended from King John in the 12th century? a Minority of 9% of "bloodline" British controlling everything? London and France are rapidly becoming fanatic zealot lunatic locations anyway, China has a National stance on Kung Fu as a daily practice not a war over everyone's pretend deity..

I say, we should move to be a Pacific Rim nation keep the peace there and make a lot of money

www.washingtonpost.com...://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/files/2014/06/1999EastSt.jpg&w=1484

That's a map of the second most common belief systems by State, the whole west coast in Buddhist/Hindu the other side.... Islam, make Allies wit the "sane" group should be a no brainer

a reply to: criticalhit

Why throw out crazy numbers?

It`s not a crazy number, US calculated it needed about 500.000 troops to secure Afghanistan and based on that military experts estimate, because of how big Russia is, it needs about 500 million to actual secure it.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

My friend, the number of troops you need to hold a nation is population dependent not land area dependent.

Afghanistan had 30 Million people, armed soldiers, 500,000 to hold it that is one man with grenades, telecom and assault rifle to subdue 60 people.

Following those numbers, China would need 2-3 Million troops to "hold" Russia, that happens to be the size of it's standing Army not in war time... Russia only has 4x the population of Afghanistan, the Army your suggesting is 4x the population of Russia + lol

Unless your suggesting the Chinese need five men to kill a single Russian woman or child rofl...

The Chinese population is nearly 15x that of Russia, and they are landlocked... minus the Nuclear option of the Russians the Chinese could roll over them so fast it would make Hitlers attack on Poland look slow...

There isn't a Military expert in the world who ever said it would take 500 Million men to secure Russia

a reply to: criticalhit

Apparently there is.

We Asked a Military Expert How to Invade and Conquer Russia

Some things never change. Which brings me to Russia's size, which has always been a problem for its enemies. There's just so much territory to cover. Is there any army in the world capable of securing a country this size?

If I were to give you a short answer, then it would be no. Russia's territory covers more than one-eighth of the Earth's inhabited land area and stretches across nine different time zones. There is simply way too much territory to seize and then control. Unless China mobilized half of its population and sent them to cover the wilderness of Siberia.

So what you're saying is you might be able to conquer Russia if you had half a billion Chinese people marauding across Siberia?

China would be an interesting case if we considered a conventional conflict scenario. This would turn ugly and most likely develop into a war of attrition. However, with only 143 million people living in Russia, guess who the winner might be... Logistically, though, such an operation is unsustainable, even if the Chinese lived off what they looted, captured, and hunted in Russia. To give you a different perspective, it is estimated that the United States would need 500,000 troops in Afghanistan to secure the whole of the country. Russia is 26 times bigger than Afghanistan and shares borders with 16 countries.

Source

originally posted by: criticalhit

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: s3cz0ne

This still hasn`t been fulfilled...

The Grand Chessboard

American Primacy And It's Geostrategic Imperatives

Key Quotes From Zbigniew Brzezinksi's Seminal 1998 Book

Link

Full PDF

That should give you an idea about things.

China isn`t looking into occupation of Russia because it needs 500 million Chinese to do so...as long as China gets its energy supplies at a normal price it won`t burn itself on it. China probably wants to control the Pacific with economics and nothing more.

Controlling big empires cost a lot, just look at the US now and what happened to the Soviet Union going bankrupt.

Why throw out crazy numbers?

That's completely untrue, for starters Russia has what? 130 Million people why would a Chinese occupying force need to out number the Russians nearly 5-1 lol

Aside from that, the whole of Siberia and the vast majority of the Chinese border has all of 6-7 Million people, 4-5 Million or more Chinese migrant workers cross into Siberia every year, aside from the Russia Nuclear option virtually NOTHING stops China from simply taking Siberia if it just felt like it, the main reason the Chinese don't aside from the aforementioned reason would be simply that every season more Siberians take Chinese wives/husbands and in X amount of time Siberia will be Chinese anyway.

I don't know where people get their info from... 500 Million, lol China could just tell its migrant workers to not come back one year and back them up with couple of 100 Thousand Guerrillas and Siberia would be a lost cause via any conventional thing Russia could hope to do about it


Count on China helping Russia? Maybe they leave the Russians open to believe that, but realistically Russia is ripe for the Chinese pickings if there is a major war, if Russia is occupied in Ukraine and Eastern Europe? China will take that Cobra down like an angry Mongoose... There is Trillions of Dollars in the Northern wasteland, to fight the USA as China you have to shoot your self in the foot economically then maintain a supply line past the US Navy anyway to get..."anything" at all back from the war...To get Siberia you have to walk guerrillas in during the spring take a few pipeline supply points and dig into the snow with rifles and no one and no technology in the world will get you out of that vast nightmare terrain you, there are Millions of Kilometers of woods and snow and nobody lives there by any modern geographic demographic standard

China is Never, ever going to side with Russia in a war and if they do... it will be because it's an excuse to put boots down and never leave after the fact

Much more a relationship of convenience than I previously thought... I never fully thought out the demographic angle there... Well done sir or maam!!!!!

originally posted by: xuenchen
War is on the brink

The U.N. will have to guard the pipelines !!

That is just it, Is it really possible for Ukraine to have tapped into it to steal anything? Its not like a water hose where you can turn it off and not have the water company know that you did it. Everyone would know you turned it off at one point to divert anything. I see this as an excuse for Putin to try to drive up the cost of gas while shipping what he has to the people he now wants to deal with. That is his right but this is like saying the U.S. would have been right in the 70s and 80s to not ship life saving grain to Russia. If we would have cut them off it would have been instant war for fear their people would starve, well now Russia is trying to freeze people in Europe and it also diminishes any strategic reserves Europe may need to tap into for a while.

Putin is playing with fire yet if cooler heads prevail and Europe can hold out I see a massive amount of tankers leaving American ports very soon to fill the gap. I am looking forward to see a new fail safe pipeline from the U.S. and Canada to Europe. That would benefit us all while giving Putin the big middle finger..

I recall reading the seriousness of the last great cut off's during the winter months and its devastating humanitarian implications here on ATS some years ago.

People were literally left in the dark and in the frigid temperatures to simply die. So here we go again during the harshest winter months cutting supplies that have a chain effect throughout far more than the ones they are at war with. Is there any other option than for them to go to war with Russia in order to survive? It is not only the Ukraine who Russia has given this latest death sentence to.


en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: criticalhit

Good post, here are some more population stats for the entire EU. Seems Russia is highly outnumbered, as you say short of their Nuclear capabilities non of this makes any sense.

www.statista.com...

originally posted by: criticalhit

I say, we should move to be a Pacific Rim nation keep the peace there and make a lot of money

www.washingtonpost.com...://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/files/2014/06/1999EastSt.jpg&w=1484

That's a map of the second most common belief systems by State, the whole west coast in Buddhist/Hindu the other side.... Islam, make Allies wit the "sane" group should be a no brainer

Well I was looking forward to reading it, but the link is dead on my end.

Yeah well you make some very good points, some good and some bad. However, I see no reason why we should turn our backs on Europe, you're just not understanding the cultural aspect of what I was talking about, and don't give me any of that Asians are moving up quicker than Latinos or blacks stuff, because I already understand that is happening because I live on the West Coast, and you're absolutely 100% correct about that, but does that mean we should all commit cultural suicide?

Well my friend, surely the numbers would not lie when it's all said and done at the end of the day now would it? Latinos don't have the access to education concerning their numbers either.

With that being said, I agree with other points that you have made. Hey, I am all for making money and I admire various Asian peoples for their work ethic that clearly dwarfs most minorities, but Latinos work their freaking asses off too, same with Indians and others ect. Lets not compare races, cause it causes nothing but havoc.

Fact is, There are just more Asians than anyone else migrating to the west. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it is reasonable. Truth is, we have enemies within that are trying to allow cultural suicide through media, drugs and dis-informed education. You like that one?

Yeah, so if you want us to just allow ourselves to be bred out by the overwhelming unbalanced numbers of migrants from Asia, you are gravely mistaken, its not going to happen. If you want to make some money while being reasonable, that sounds a lot better to me.

That is why we will build up The Japanese and Unify the Koreans, as well as others that are too much to mention, and then every Asian people will have a voice and a say. You know like out here in the West, how the Americans, Germans, French, Engilsh, Spanish, Itallians ect have? You could call us all Aryans, or Anglos, or whatever. Much like some call Japanese, Chinese, Koreans ect all Asians right? Well no, they are all different cultures, The Japanese are nothing like the Chinese, they are very different from each other.

There really is no Asian, or Aryan, or whatever when it really comes down to it. Good discussion though criticalhit, I enjoy this kind of stuff because it needs to be discussed. ~$heopleNation

Investers seem to be watching for a unity of Korea also.

www.futuresmag.com...

a reply to: SheopleNation

a reply to: Corruptedstructure

Thanks, good find and read !

Jim Rogers is always good to read or hear.

The Myth of a Chinese takeover in Siberia – Continued

As an avid follower and enthusiast of modern trends in Sino-Russian relations (and media coverage thereof), I saw this “jewel” of an op-ed in the New York Times earlier this week, titled “Why China will Reclaim Siberia“. This type of Sinophobic fear-mongering is nothing new in the western media. With amusement, I read through it with the slight hope of finding some new, compelling arguments other than the same old rhetoric of “there are so many Chinese and so few Russians”. Unsurprisingly, there were none.

Source

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Russia to Shift Ukraine Gas Transit to Turkey as EU Cries Foul

Amazing that he says NATO is a problem for Russia, yet he is going to use NATO countries to run his gas through.

Funny thing here is NATO will not say anything as to what Turkey does when dealing with Russia. Unlike what Russia has tried to do with Ukraine.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

What?, Turkey gets hassled by NATO all the time, Turkey is part of NATO's Air Defense Ground Environment.

a reply to: Dabrazzo

No Turkey gets hassled by the EU, with whom Turkey wants to join.

So now you have Russia suddenly being ok doing business with an member of NATO and a nation who wants to join the EU.

Does Russia care? I think they do.

I think they are not done with Ukraine and I think NATO nations might be next. I think this is pre-emptive in order to prevent Turkey from blocking Russian access to the Bosporus, Dardanelles.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Dabrazzo

No Turkey gets hassled by the EU, with whom Turkey wants to join.

So now you have Russia suddenly being ok doing business with an member of NATO and a nation who wants to join the EU.

Does Russia care? I think they do.

I think they are not done with Ukraine and I think NATO nations might be next. I think this is pre-emptive in order to prevent Turkey from blocking Russian access to the Bosporus, Dardanelles.

Turkey is a non white, non christian third world nation. EU does not Turkey to join its set up. Turkey has been trying to join EU for more than a decade but has been repeatedly shunned. Now Istanbul is focusing on SCO and that makes sense.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Eh?, this isnt "all of a sudden" Turkey is one of Russias top export partners and vice versa, they share several trade and cooperation agreements together worth hundreds of billions of dollars, Russia is even building Turkish nuclear power plants. Dont think Turkey is joining the EU anytime soon, especialy not with that nut case Erdogan at the helm.

And why would Turkey do that?, they have traditionaly held a policy of blocking any NATO encroachment into the Black Sea.

You should also probably be made aware Turkey is actualy a "dialogue partner" in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation so......If it werent for the fact they would probably have "democracy" introduced to their country overnight, im surprised their even still in NATO.

a reply to: Dabrazzo

Blocking NATO encroachment?

Turkey is a NATO member and is allowing NATO vessels into the Black Sea beyond the established time frames.

It doesn't answer the question of why Russia is holding a double standard with Turkey and Ukraine.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Man Russia's relations with Ukraine are radicaly different than its relations with any other country in the world right now, dunno how much of a "double standard" that is, they just happen to be engaged in a war with Ukraine, kinda makes sense they wont be cutting them lucrative gas deals anymore.

Russia still supplies gas to the UK, whats that all about?!?!. I dont think Russia has ever in modern times discriminated against any nation on account of EU/NATO membership status, quite the opposite it seems to be.

Turkey denies its fellow NATO members access to the Black Sea on a regular basis, such as 2008 during that business in Georgia.

NATO has been trying to ammend the Montreux Convention for some time simply because it would enjoy unlimited access to the Black Sea, Turkey wont have it though. They do threaten Russia with restrictions too of course, seems to be only when it suits them.