Russia Cuts Off Ukraine Gas Supply To 6 European Countries

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: superman2012

So you what? Give into to their demands in hopes e doesn't do something stupid?

Like invade a country like Ukraine?
Illegally annex Crimea?
Threaten Europe with energy wars?

Nope. You sit back and watch their country fall to pieces. Just like the US is dealing with in the aftermath of Bush.
What is your suggestion? Go to war?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: s3cz0ne

Since when has Putin made a decision based on logic? Putin's actions are based on personal interest by Putin. This is Putin trying to stick it to Europe in winter.

You may not like the man(and clearly don't) but that doesn't make him stupid. He is obviously extremely calculated and just because an action may no obvious benefit in the short term does not mean that it is simply a personal jab coming from a stupid person. Putin wants to rebuild Russia to its former glory as a military equal to the U.S. and a super power with far reaching sway and power. On thing that has been odd to me since the beginning of recent tensions is the need for many discussing the issue to pick a side. There are those who in order to be Pro-Russian MUST be Anti-US/NATO/EU. Why can't it be that neither side is acting in the interest of humanity and general and that this a battle for the control and subjugation of humanity. There are some on the Pro-Putin side who view him as a savior for "sticking up for Russia". Do those people really believe that if Putin "wins" the outcome for humanity would be positive. The same goes for the Pro-US side. While many will criticize him for "annexing" Crimea and stirring up trouble in Ukraine it is in fact entirely understandable. Those condemn him the most generally tend to be the most Pro-US and they fail to see the extreme irony. Look at American interference in anything that has threatened the petrodollar and US hegemony. Look at the broken promise about no NATO expansion at the end of the CW. "Not one inch further!" And this isn't some wacky conspiracy theory it was public ally stated by ranking US officials. Look at how NATO misled Georgia into thinking they would support them and the aftermath. Look at the Balkans and the landscape of post CW Europe. From an informed perspective Putin's actions make a lot of sense and should have been expected. It doesnt make it right but what about modern geopolitics is? If the roles were reversed and Russia was encircling American borders in Canada and Mexico I don't want to know what the response would be.



In reply to BornAgainAlein I mostly agree with you. While the economic destruction and resulting regime change in the countries that you listed would certainly be the most favorable outcome to US and Western strategy it may not be required to maintain hegemony. Destabilization and economic isolation should do the trick with regime change in just a few of those countries to prevent a meaningful economic alliance from emerging. On the Chinese front it seems to be a partnership of convenience for China. I'm sure China would be more than happy to help itself to Siberia and its natural resources which might even someday happen, in the more distant future. China seems to be playing the long game, thinking in terms of centuries rather than years or decades, and as history has shown they are quite good at it. As far as US containment of China is concerned all I can say is good luck. Granted they do have their own domestic economic problems but over the past few decades they have been quite successful and I don't see that stopping anytime soon. They certainly have no interest in taking orders from Washington and it seems that with all of the US debt they own and credit they extend, they're in a pretty strong position. One has to wonder at what point the Chinese will attempt to more aggressively assert themselves militarily in the South Pacific and achieve their ultimate goal of driving the US military out of Okinawa, South Korea and elsewhere. Japan seems to be a bit worried as their defense spending hasn't been this high since WWII or so I've read.

A reply to Mastronaut:
The alternative economy idea you point to sounds a lot like the peak of the cold war with the USSR and China effectively isolated from Western markets. Putin would obviously like to build up BRICS and a viable financial alternative. The question is can he do it? The Russian economy extremely undiversified and relies almost entirely on petro products for its export markets. We have all seen how the single export model economy works when the price of that one thing crashes. There are similar stories out of Africa(don't remember the specifics but I can find them if someone is interested) where a countries economy was based on a single cash crop, coffee. When the price of coffee collapsed it absolutely devasted the local economy. That's not to say this is the same thing but it does illustrate a point. That African country, however did not posses nuclear weapons and a massive war machine. To the point about gold backed currencies it does seem that China is working towards that. The question is will the western banking cabal allow that and can they really stop it? As far as why is the west pushing Russia? Its been happening since the cold war ended but we are just now really seeing the tension ratchet up in a potentially very scary way.

a reply to: s3cz0ne

This still hasn`t been fulfilled...


The Grand Chessboard

American Primacy And It's Geostrategic Imperatives

Key Quotes From Zbigniew Brzezinksi's Seminal 1998 Book

Link

Full PDF

That should give you an idea about things.

China isn`t looking into occupation of Russia because it needs 500 million Chinese to do so...as long as China gets its energy supplies at a normal price it won`t burn itself on it. China probably wants to control the Pacific with economics and nothing more.

Controlling big empires cost a lot, just look at the US now and what happened to the Soviet Union going bankrupt.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Good paper written in 2010 by John Mearsheimer a professor of political science at the University of Chicago.

The Gathering Storm: China’s Challenge to US Power in Asia

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

How far back are you going to go to try and support your narrative?

Bush is not in office and Obama is not using his foreign policy.

a reply to: Dabrazzo

That was a well written article, thank you for the link. I personally believe that Beijing is bent on future aggression, because they really have no other choice when you think about it. From their point of view is what I mean by that. As we focus on Russia and desert rock throwers in the middle east, It's China who is the true threat to the survival of the West at the end of the day.

I have a book called The Coming Conflict With China, by Richard Bernstein, Ross H Munro. I purchased this book back in 1998 I believe it was, and most of it's predictions have all come forth. The Chinese have their eyes on not only more resources, but the reunification of Taiwan with the Motherland. It would be quite the economic prize for her if that goal was ever accomplished.

I think today, we have here in the West some new age foolish mortals who are banking on another revolution in China, but one that will champion a Western Democracy like Government. However these idiots do not understand how the Chinese think, they are a very calculated and patient people. Make no mistake about it, ruthless too. It would be a serious mistake to underestimate the long term resolve of this very intelligent and ancient culture.

The West has no choice but to aid in the Military build up of Japan. The unification of South and North Korea is part of this plan, and it has to occur in order for the end goals to be reached. Russia has a choice to make, because the next 20 years are going to decide who holds the cards on this planet, and who folds into eternal slavery. Unfortunately, It is the way of this World. ~$heopleNation

Tell me if you wear Russia and a Lot of your gas was going Missing!
and non of the counties you pump gas to say they took it.
would you be happy?
IT IS Russia's Gas!
Give us Your gas or we Bomb you? terrorism!

Here`s actual the video for confirmation...

Russia says it will shift gas transit from Ukraine to Turkey

Link

Yea.. simply brilliant move by Russia. Their already plummeting stock market is dipping further because of these decisions. Their energy markets are dropping severely. Stopping sales to European countries is probably not going to help a whole lot. So their "win situation" is to "punish" countries.. while plummeting their own country into recession? Brilliant. I can see how you folks are so enamored with their power plays and clever manipulation of the energy stock market. Go Russia!

a reply to: fleabit

This is a risky move on the part of Russia but it has to do something to help the oil prices. Natural gas problems in winter can surely jack up the oil prices.

It seems fighting has escalated in Donbass. It is possible a heavy punch is coming from NAF backed by Russia.

Btw, why is fighting going on in the Donetsk Airport? there is nothing left and whatever is still standing should be bombed to ground without wasting any lives or well being of the soldiers.

2nd floor ours and 3rd floor theirs does not make much sense.

a reply to: victor7

Reference airport.

Its a symbolic move. By holding on to the airport they can deny its use. Its also key infrastructure to the rebel capital. If they could secure it, just like the rebels, it can be used to quickly receive reinforcements.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Russia says it will shift gas transit from Ukraine to Turkey

So, this is an actual headline. Without even mentioning concrete date when this is going to happen.
Russia doesn't like that Ukraine "stealing gas", we can argue if this is true or not, but this is their concern.
Switching to the lines bypassing Ukraine is a normal reaction and not threatening West Europe in the long run.

European Commission Vice President Maroš Šefčovič was told in Moscow Wednesday (14 January) that Russia would shift all its gas transit from Ukraine to Turkey, and that EU customers should buy this gas at the border with Greece.

According to press reports, Šefčovič, who visits Russia for the first time since he was appointed Commission Vice-President for the Energy Union, said he was “very surprised” by the Russian move.

Russia recently abandoned plans to build the South Stream gas pipeline via the Black Sea to Bulgaria, and blamed Sofia for having obstructed the project.

www.euractiv.com...

Without even mentioning concrete date when this is going to happen.

What i heard from my local news agency is that it will probably happen in 2019. I don´t have the link to confirm it. It was in the evening news yesterday.

originally posted by: superman2012

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: superman2012

So you what? Give into to their demands in hopes e doesn't do something stupid?

Like invade a country like Ukraine?
Illegally annex Crimea?
Threaten Europe with energy wars?

Nope. You sit back and watch their country fall to pieces. Just like the US is dealing with in the aftermath of Bush.
What is your suggestion? Go to war?

Thank you for bringing humor to my morning. What would a thread be without 'Blame Bush!'
heh heh heh. I love it

originally posted by: stosh64

originally posted by: superman2012

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: superman2012

So you what? Give into to their demands in hopes e doesn't do something stupid?

Like invade a country like Ukraine?
Illegally annex Crimea?
Threaten Europe with energy wars?

Nope. You sit back and watch their country fall to pieces. Just like the US is dealing with in the aftermath of Bush.
What is your suggestion? Go to war?

Thank you for bringing humor to my morning. What would a thread be without 'Blame Bush!'
heh heh heh. I love it

Yeah except he WAS a tool in the neocon tool box. Problem is it started way before W. Clinton played too just like Obama is now doing.

a reply to: kitzik

Well, listening to it what Maroš Šefčovič has been told by the Russians, it`s hurry up and pay for the pipeline or you will be without enough gas soon (couple of years). So it`s Russia saying build now immediately or no gas within a couple of years, it`s a big move telling Europe what to do.

Sorry to be that guy, but this is some pure BS. All Russia has done, is threatening to divert the gas from Ukraine via Turkey. This will happen (according to Russia) in the near future meaning in a few years after the new pipeline is ready, and Russia urges the EU to prepare for this.

So no, there is no crisis in Europe for now, sorry to be the doom stopper this time .. I live in Eastern Europe and if something like that would happen, all the major News agencies would go berserk with this type of info.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

So it`s Russia saying build now immediately or no gas within a couple of years, it`s a big move telling Europe what to do.

It is called a "friendly advice in advance". Europe may decide they can obtain gas elsewhere , like may be Scotland North sea, Norway or USA. For Russia It is not just a bold move , but also a risk to lose European customers.
For many years Europe was busy to make obstacles for the pipe line going through Bulgaria. Now Russia is saying, if you really want this gas, build some pipe yourself within EU borders, don't make us troubles with your Brussel's bureaucracy.
Europe can make a buck selling some of this gas to Ukraine and trying to get some money for this lol. It seems Russia is fed up with doing business with Ukraine.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: victor7

Reference airport.

Its a symbolic move. By holding on to the airport they can deny its use. Its also key infrastructure to the rebel capital. If they could secure it, just like the rebels, it can be used to quickly receive reinforcements.

When push comes to shove, even a B747 can land on a highway and even a 5 mile strip of highway can be quickly upgraded to act as an airport runway.

Watch this video for C130 landing on autobahn.
www.youtube.com...

Heck, only 2200 meters i.e. 2.2 Kms of runway lenght is needed to land a 747 and that is not even 2 miles.
www.narita-airport.or.jp...

Take off sure does require good 3.5Kms but that is very manageable as these numbers are probably for optimum normal scenarios. I think both TO and Landing can be done is much less length than required in normal times.

a reply to: s3cz0ne

Exactly, they are ALL tools.
I find it humorous when people pick out one tool and blame them.