Judge Rules Against Christian Florist Who Refused to Provide Flowers for Gay Wedding

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You don't forego rights just because you own a business.

What rights is she foregoing? She has never had the right to discriminate in business.

originally posted by: Annee

I equate this to the discrimination of my disabled mother. That was in the 50s, before the disability act.

Yes, we were refused service and kicked out of businesses. For insurance reasons, for upsetting other customers etc.

Fine, you and your partner can just jump in a car and go someplace else.

If you have a disability, can you even drive a car, then there's access (are there stairs?), is parking too far to walk?, etc.

So No --- I do not agree it's OK to just find someone else. A business provides a service. That service is required by law to serve every customer the same.

My dear, while I totally appreciate your well meant intent;

Homosexuality is not a disability

I can and do manage to do everything any straight man can do, except have sex with women. My life and my abilites, physical, emotional or spiritual is not in any way shape or form limited by my sexual attraction.

Your mother does need extra help, assistance and kindness that relates to her condition. I do not.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Tardacus
a reply to: Metallicus

the florist isn`t being forced to participate in a gay wedding they are being forced to sell flowers that`s all.
if the florist was in the food service industry would it be ok for them to not serve food to gay people?
what about Christian car salesmen is it ok for them to not sell a car to gay people or to muslims or to anyone who isn`t a Christian?

if the flowers were able to speak and said that they are Christian flowers and they don`t want to participate in a gay wedding then I would say that they shouldn`t be forced to.

What about a Jewish deli that refused to provide brisket for a Nazi rally or a black person who refused to provide barbecue for a Klan rally?

Same thing. If they are a business open to the public and the Jewish deli sells brisket to the public then they would be required to sell a brisket to the Nazi and the BBQ owner to the Klan.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You don't forego rights just because you own a business.

What rights is she foregoing? She has never had the right to discriminate in business.

People have the right to property. When you sell stuff, you first have to buy it and it is your property and then you have the right to sell that property to someone else, or not.

People have a right to their religious beliefs.

People have the right to free association.

People have the right to speak freely.

What may seem good on the outside, the government forcing commerce to the unwilling in the name of anti-discrimination, has an unpleasant side--the government forcing people to do things. You refusing to do business with me does not hurt me. Me having the state force you to does.

I'm not for discrimination. I'm not anti-gay. I'm anti-nanny state and governmental overreach.

originally posted by: markosity1973
Homosexuality is not a disability

I think you know she didn't mean that and I can't imagine why you'd post what you did... It's pretty low.

originally posted by: Kali74

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Tardacus
a reply to: Metallicus

the florist isn`t being forced to participate in a gay wedding they are being forced to sell flowers that`s all.
if the florist was in the food service industry would it be ok for them to not serve food to gay people?
what about Christian car salesmen is it ok for them to not sell a car to gay people or to muslims or to anyone who isn`t a Christian?

if the flowers were able to speak and said that they are Christian flowers and they don`t want to participate in a gay wedding then I would say that they shouldn`t be forced to.

What about a Jewish deli that refused to provide brisket for a Nazi rally or a black person who refused to provide barbecue for a Klan rally?

Same thing. If they are a business open to the public and the Jewish deli sells brisket to the public then they would be required to sell a brisket to the Nazi and the BBQ owner to the Klan.

That's sad. I'd hate to see a holocaust survivor forced by the state provide services to the same type of men that imprisoned him or killed his family. That does not seen just at all.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
What the people do with the product is none of the seller's business.

True. Good point.

However bakers and florists need to get a feel for the general celebration that they are providing for. Day wedding .. night wedding .. formal wedding .. oceanside or in a building or in a field. Same sex wedding might require two grooms cakes and not one .. or no bridal bouquet but two boutonnieres. I don't think that there is a way to get around telling the florist or baker that it's for a same sex wedding it's going to come out (no pun intended). They kind of have to know what people are going to do with the product, in order to make the right product.

But I fully agree with ya that what is done with the product shouldn't matter to the business.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
People have the right to property. When you sell stuff, you first have to buy it and it is your property and then you have the right to sell that property to someone else, or not.

The stuff she buys is not personal property. It's her business property.

People have a right to their religious beliefs.

People have the right to free association.

People have the right to speak freely.

None of these rights were violated.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

None of these situations are happening because of state involvement save for declaring gay people members of the public fully protected by the Constitution. Business laws haven't changed and don't need to... businesses open to the public must serve the entire public unless a person is disrupting their business or placing a business in violation of local, state or federal regulations.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Annee

I equate this to the discrimination of my disabled mother. That was in the 50s, before the disability act.

Yes, we were refused service and kicked out of businesses. For insurance reasons, for upsetting other customers etc.

Fine, you and your partner can just jump in a car and go someplace else.

If you have a disability, can you even drive a car, then there's access (are there stairs?), is parking too far to walk?, etc.

So No --- I do not agree it's OK to just find someone else. A business provides a service. That service is required by law to serve every customer the same.

My dear, while I totally appreciate your well meant intent;

Homosexuality is not a disability

I can and do manage to do everything any straight man can do, except have sex with women. My life and my abilites, physical, emotional or spiritual is not in any way shape or form limited by my sexual attraction.

Your mother does need extra help, assistance and kindness that relates to her condition. I do not.

Duh! The subject is discrimination and access to your local business. ANY discrimination.

And --- I guess gays are never disabled or too sick to drive.

a reply to: NavyDoc

They aren't forced by the State to do anything. This is what the business owner agreed to when they applied for and were approved a public business license.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
However bakers and florists need to get a feel for the general celebration that they are providing for. Day wedding .. night wedding .. formal wedding .. oceanside or in a building or in a field.

Gay people have the same kind of weddings as straight people do.

Same sex wedding might require two grooms cakes and not one .. or no bridal bouquet but two boutonnieres. I don't think that there is a way to get around telling the florist or baker that it's for a same sex wedding it's going to come out (no pun intended). They kind of have to know what people are going to do with the product, in order to make the right product.

Just as a straight bride would tell the florist that she wants 1 bouquet for for the bride, 7 for the bridesmaids, 7 boutonnieres for the groomsmen, one for the mother and another for the mother in law, a gay couple would also give these specifics. I'm not suggesting they try to hide that it's a gay wedding, I'm saying the business doesn't have to "approve" of what I'm doing with the product.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: markosity1973
Homosexuality is not a disability

I think you know she didn't mean that and I can't imagine why you'd post what you did... It's pretty low.

Really? Like really, really?

A gay person gets annoyed for homosexuality being likened to a disability and that's not okay?

I said at the beginning of that post I appreciated the intent and I do. But we need to move past the gay people need pity because they are like disabled people kind of argument. It's demeaning to both people who are truly disabled and gay people alike. Same goes with racial comparisons even though it is more appropriate because it offends entire nations of people then.

…so what happened to all of the signs I remember seeing while growing up that read "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."?

Refuse Service

originally posted by: notmyrealname
…so what happened to all of the signs I remember seeing while growing up that read "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."?

Refuse Service

Is not, nor was it ever what you think it is.

link

Why are people in a simple business transaction judging each other to begin with?

I mean there is something seriously flawed here. We're not on the verge of insanity...we've arrived.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
Why are people in a simple business transaction judging each other to begin with?

I mean there is something seriously flawed here. We're not on the verge of insanity...we've arrived.

We have been here for a while already. Sometimes I wonder if we have been anywhere else.

originally posted by: Annee

Duh! The subject is discrimination and access to your local business. ANY discrimination.

And --- I guess gays are never disabled or too sick to drive.

The title of the thread is GAY couple refused service.

And

Straight people are disabled too. This is a silly argument and everyone is getting way too oversensitive here.......

FYI I am not sure about America, but here in Australia and NZ, all businesses are required by law to give full access, both in terms of physical access for wheelchairs and terms of service to disabled people. There is no issue for disabled folk. I serve them quite regularly in my store.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: markosity1973
Homosexuality is not a disability

I think you know she didn't mean that and I can't imagine why you'd post what you did... It's pretty low.

Really? Like really, really?

A gay person gets annoyed for homosexuality being likened to a disability and that's not okay?

Get over yourself.

You weren't likened to a disabled person. It's about discrimination and access to local business.

No one should have to "test the waters" of a business to see if they are acceptable to the business owner.

originally posted by: markosity1973
A gay person gets annoyed for homosexuality being likened to a disability and that's not okay?

She did not liken homosexuality to a disability. She was talking about two cases of discrimination.

But we need to move past the gay people need pity because they are like disabled people kind of argument.

No one is suggesting that. Gay people who are pushing for equal treatment don't do so because they need pity. They do it for equal treatment under the LAW.