The book of Daniel. My take is that it's future events.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

I thought we were speaking about the people living in Israel who are mainly Jewish in identity. If you are talking about people world wide ... yes, there is a chance for anyone to become a believer. There will be many who think they are believers now who will realize that they never understood what that actually meant.

I am thinking about people like this lady here:



People like this one will realize that they never really knew Him, and He never knew them. And they will have the opportunity to find their way back. Sadly, most will not succeed.

But my mistake was in thinking we were talking about the Jews specifically.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

What Jesus was saying is that the Torah and the Prophets would not have one jot or tittle pass away from it until all of it was fulfilled. Meaning, every single prophecy given therein would come to pass.

The verse is Matthew 5:18 that you are quoting.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

All things coming about, is probably relating to the idea of heaven and earth passing away, meaning that as long as history is progressing along, then there is an eternal law, not necessarily just the Law as laid out at the time, the traditions of Moses, but a fundamental spiritual law of God that governs how people treat each other.
If you follow along, he is talking about what people practice.
He does not go into any prophecies.
So, take what you said about "Law and Prophets" and take it into the other direction, meaning, as this way of expressing the entire tradition, but with the direct reference to the legalities, rather than your assumption of the current specific emphases on prophetic predictions of future events.
The only future event that Jesus was referring to is the reality that the world will keep going on, with people living, and there needing to be something that governs how they carry that out.

a reply to: ketsuko

This is the meaning of Israel, in our time...this is the meaning of the names put together into a paragraph.


"We praise the LORD, for He has seen our afflictions; surely the Lord loves us. How fortunate and happy we are! With mighty wrestling's we have wrestled with one another and with the Lord Himself, and we have indeed prevailed, for God rules. God has made us forget all our troubles. Because the LORD has heard that we are unloved, He has therefore given us sonship. He is our Husband and we are attached to Him. God has given us our wages. God has endowed us with a good gift; now our Husband will dwell among us. God has taken away our reproach. The LORD has given us another Son, the Son of Sorrow who died and now lives as the Son of His right hand."


Why?
Jacob's Sons

Ordered according to Revelation 7:4

1. Judah "This time I will praise the LORD."
2. Reuben "Because the LORD has seen my affliction; surely now my husband will love me."
3. Gad "How fortunate!"
4. Asher "Happy am I! For women will call me happy."
5. Naphtali "With mighty wrestlings I have wrestled with my sister, and I have indeed prevailed."
6. Manasseh "God has made me forget all my trouble and all my father's household."
7. Simeon "Because the LORD has heard that I am unloved, He has therefore given me this son also."
8. Levi "Now this time my husband will become attached to me, because I have borne him three sons."
9. Issachar "God has given me my wages because I gave my maid to my husband."
10. Zebulun "God has endowed me with a good gift; now my husband will dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons."
11. Joseph "God has taken away my reproach." "May the LORD give me another son."
12. Benjamin "The son of my sorrows" became "The son of my right hand."


This was the point of the Blood line, to bring Christ Jesus into this world, and after, the salvation of us all through Christ Jesus. It has nothing to do with blood now, because Christ is born.

a reply to: jmdewey60

You missed my point entirely. When Jesus said "the law" He was saying "the Torah", not the Mosaic Law. In Hebrew the word "law" is "torah".

a reply to: NOTurTypical

You missed my point entirely. When Jesus said "the law" He was saying "the Torah", not the Mosaic Law. In Hebrew the word "law" is "torah".

You jump from Law, what Jesus was talking about, to something else that he was not talking about.
"All that comes about" is a way of describing the remainder of time that we live as a people in this world.
What you are doing is saying that the "coming about" is everything written in the law happening.
I don't see how such an interpretation is justified outside of just making a convenient support for another theory that you are willing to do anything necessary to prop up.

a reply to: jmdewey60

You jump from Law, what Jesus was talking about, to something else that he was not talking about.

No I didn't, you misunderstood what I said. I said when Jesus was saying "law" He was talking about the Torah ("law" in Hebrew), not the law of Moses contained in the Torah. He wasn't saying the Mosaic Law would be in effect till heaven and Earth pass away. That would make Him a liar, the Mosaic Law is of none effect since Calvary.

as far as 'Israel'... the proper identification is Ersatz Israelthe land becoming a nation in 1948 of mankind Time

Ersatz Definition
adj. adjective

1.Being a usually inferior imitation or substitute; artificial.
2.Not genuine; fake.


the great deception is both compounding & confounding...


next of all... the Revelation opening of the scroll with 7 seals began with the 1st blood moon in April 2014 of this current unique tetrad of 4 Jewish feast day eclipses... yes, Daniel fits in, just read on below where Daniel 8 plays a huge role in this 4 horsemen tetrad



2014, the Year of the Horse, started the timely start of the end-times, with the opening of the 1st 4 Seals which are the blood-moon tetrad or Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse era (this tetrad of 4 blood moons during the 2014-2015 'times'

2015, the Year of the Goat-Lamb (ram) is significant because the 3rd & 4th Horsemen-of-the-Apocalypse era Go-Forth during this second half of the Tetrad... Few of us will recognize that 2015 Goat-Ram mirrors the Daniel 8 vision of the geopolitical clash of empires put in scripture...
there is the modern twist of the Greek-v-Persian change of global paradigm, in the current Radical Sunni-v-Apostate Muslim conflict all across the same geographical region as in the Daniel 8 chapter (Syria-Kurdish-Turk-Iraq-Iran-Levant lands)

it all ends badly beginning in this predestined time (4 horsemen of Apocalypse era/)
www.blueletterbible.org...
the Goat in the Daniel vision was once Greek
the Ram in the Daniel vision was then the Mede-Persian
the year 2015 will play out another conflict between Goat-Ram hidden code, 'here is wisdom',
with the 'Goat'; ISIS/eventual Global Caliphate incl. Turkey conquering the present day 'Ram' counterpart (Iran/Iraq/Cappidocia/Syria/Kurdistan/Jordan/Arabia/Armenia...)


I think One gets off track with cramming Ersatz Israel to fit into prophecy timelines

a reply to: NOTurTypical

. . . the Mosaic Law is of none effect since Calvary.

Was "every single prophecy given therein come to pass" then?

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: ntech

The fig tree is Israel during the 70th Week, not before. The fig tree sprouting is Israel believing in Christ up to His return. Currently, Israel is occupied by athiest Jews and Law observers who reject Christ, so there is no way that the Fig Tree parable can apply to the Zionist State. The fig tree is still dead.

Like I said Israel only has 7 years remaining. There is no way that modern day Israel is fulfillment of prophecy. We will know when the prophecy is fulfilled when the Jews are ALL regathered and resurrected at once.

The Fig tree as a representation of Jews believing in Christ does not separate them from being at the time residing in Jerusalem under the law or old ways.

Zachariah 12:10

10"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11"In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.…

This prophecy clearly shows Jews living in Jerusalem at the time of this event.

Here is vs 6 which also clearly shows the Jews as a people in Jerusalem before the event in 10, when taken in chronological order, and before having a great awakening. "while Jerusalem shall again be inhabited" is a post diaspora reference.

6“On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a blazing pot in the midst of wood, like a flaming torch among sheaves. And they shall devour to the right and to the left all the surrounding peoples, while Jerusalem shall again be inhabited in its place, in Jerusalem.

The wilting of the Fig tree, by Christ, marked the beginning of the final and total diaspora. The budding is the return.

It has been tempting for some scholars to surmise that Christ is related to the budding as in a budding represents an acceptance of Christ as the wilting represented His rejection. What is forgotten is that these, including the wilting, are national prophesies and have to do with placement in the land, Jerusalem, Christ exercising a national judgment as King of the Jews, no sprit having been poured out on the total nation then and none will be until after the return and budding of the Fig as a nation.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: jmdewey60

You jump from Law, what Jesus was talking about, to something else that he was not talking about.

No I didn't, you misunderstood what I said. I said when Jesus was saying "law" He was talking about the Torah ("law" in Hebrew), not the law of Moses contained in the Torah. He wasn't saying the Mosaic Law would be in effect till heaven and Earth pass away. That would make Him a liar, the Mosaic Law is of none effect since Calvary.

Did you ever take a good look at this? From Mathew 5.

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…

Christ talking about The Kingdom of Heaven. Whoever invalidates the smallest commandment and teaches others to do so will be called least in the Kingdom.

This idea that the law is "of no effect" is yet another really bad christian urban legend. All that was ever said, and then turned backwards, is that justification by the law....the law minus Christ....made Christ of no effect, faith of no effect. The law itself is never said to be with effect.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: NOTurTypical

What Jesus was saying is that the Torah and the Prophets would not have one jot or tittle pass away from it until all of it was fulfilled. Meaning, every single prophecy given therein would come to pass.

So, take what you said about "Law and Prophets" and take it into the other direction, meaning, as this way of expressing the entire tradition, but with the direct reference to the legalities, rather than your assumption of the current specific emphases on prophetic predictions of future events.
The only future event that Jesus was referring to is the reality that the world will keep going on, with people living, and there needing to be something that governs how they carry that out.

Probably the ugliest thing ever done to the law is the very old idea that the commandments could be violated "in Christ" without repercussions. Even Zacchaeus made restitution according to the law and more after "salvation had come to his house".

This idea of freedom to break the law, in its many forms and shades of color, is not Jesus. Its that other guy "Jebus" that folks make fun of all the time.

a reply to: Logarock

This prophecy clearly shows Jews living in Jerusalem at the time of this event.

Zechariah is written with a setting that goes back to the Babylonian captivity, and plays off the prophecy of Daniel and the seventy years that it was supposed to have lasted, where the question is, "Where is this restoration of the Jews who had been held all this time, and why are we not back in Jerusalem and back to our type of prosperity that formerly it had enjoyed?"

So all the things in the book that you are calling prophecies really aren't, but just a poetic retelling of the story of the restoration, which was written after the Jews had returned, but were bitterly disappointed with how Jerusalem remained an unimportant backwater while cities around it, inhabited by gentiles, were getting wealthy off of trade in the imperial days of the Persian hegemony.

a reply to: Logarock

Probably the ugliest thing ever done to the law is the very old idea that the commandments could be violated "in Christ" without repercussions.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

a reply to: Logarock

This idea that the law is "of no effect" is yet another really bad christian urban legend.

If you look at what Jesus is doing, he says that there is a law that will always stand, but then goes on to demonstrate that the old written law was entirely inadequate to describe the real law that strictly follows spiritual principles.

Christians do not think that all of a sudden there is no longer a law, they believe that it is not a written code that you can work around with a smart lawyer attitude that keeps to the word of it while violating the spirit of it.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Logarock

This prophecy clearly shows Jews living in Jerusalem at the time of this event.

Zechariah is written with a setting that goes back to the Babylonian captivity, and plays off the prophecy of Daniel and the seventy years that it was supposed to have lasted, where the question is, "Where is this restoration of the Jews that had been held all this time, and why are we not back in Jerusalem and back to our type of prosperity that formerly it had enjoyed?"

So all the things in the book that you are calling prophecies really aren't, but just a poetic retelling of the story of the restoration, which was written after the Jews had returned, but were bitterly disappointed with how Jerusalem remained an unimportant backwater while cities around it, inhabited by gentiles, were getting wealthy off of trade in the imperial days of the Persian hegemony.

One primary problem I see with your interpretation here about Zechariah is that the House of David was never reestablished in Jerusalem after the captivity. And how could Zechariah be talking about "He whom they pierced" if it wasn't prophecy? And just who were they mourning in their poetry?

a reply to: Logarock

One primary problem I see with your interpretation here about Zechariah is that the House of David was never reestablished in Jerusalem after the captivity.

There is a lot of problems involved if you think these are all things that have to come true. You can't "fix" it by saying that all of this stuff was about things that would eventually happen thousands of years later. The book is concerned about what they saw as the closing of their widow of opportunity with the evident soon demise of the Persian Empire, thanks to incursions by the Greeks, and the future loss of their patronage that Judea had been enjoying.

And how could Zechariah be talking about "He whom they pierced" if it wasn't prophecy? And just who were they mourning in their poetry?

This part was adopted by New Testament writers to apply to Jesus, but it is not then lifted up out of that book, because of that, to be especially scrutinized as to any subsequent fulfillments.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: NOTurTypical

What Jesus was saying is that the Torah and the Prophets would not have one jot or tittle pass away from it until all of it was fulfilled. Meaning, every single prophecy given therein would come to pass.

So, take what you said about "Law and Prophets" and take it into the other direction, meaning, as this way of expressing the entire tradition, but with the direct reference to the legalities, rather than your assumption of the current specific emphases on prophetic predictions of future events.
The only future event that Jesus was referring to is the reality that the world will keep going on, with people living, and there needing to be something that governs how they carry that out.

Probably the ugliest thing ever done to the law is the very old idea that the commandments could be violated "in Christ" without repercussions. Even Zacchaeus made restitution according to the law and more after "salvation had come to his house".

I never said the "commandments can be broken in Jesus". On the other hand, I'm also not a Judaizer and saying Christians now have to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses. That heresy was settled for Gentiles in Acts chapter 15 and the book of Galatians.

This idea of freedom to break the law, in its many forms and shades of color, is not Jesus. Its that other guy "Jebus" that folks make fun of all the time.

I'm a Gentile, we never entered into a covenant with God on Mt. Sinai. That was the Hebrews. The Law was never given to make men righteous, it was given to man so that sin would abound and then grace that much more so.

I'm perfectly content with following the two commands Jesus gave that He said fulfilled the entire law...

1. Love God
2. Love people

a reply to: Logarock

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…

I never said the Old Testament had or would pass away. It's in the front of my Bible right now.

"The law and the Prophets" = The Old Testament

Torah means "Law" in Hebrew, and "The Prophets" are the minor and major prophets. To a Hebrew they never said "Old Testament" they said "the law and the prophets".

Did you ever take a good look at this? From Mathew 5.

I have a question since it's that type of party... Have YOU ever read Acts chapter 15:5-19??:

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter...

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

a reply to: jmdewey60

I sent you a message..

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: NOTurTypical

. . . the Mosaic Law is of none effect since Calvary.

Was "every single prophecy given therein come to pass" then?

Well if a prophecy failed to come to pass that would make God a liar. And besides that, He said not one word He spoke will return to Him void:

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." ~ Isaiah 55:11

If God gave a prophecy to a prophet it will come to pass.