The book of Daniel. My take is that it's future events.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Jacob had two brides: Leah and Rachel. They forshadowed Christ being denied Israel by the leaders (Laban), and being given the Church instead. Christ has to literally regather Israel when He returns. The Church did not replace Israel.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins shows the same distinction. There 10 brides, but they are divided into 2 groups of 5. The two groups represent Leah and Rachel, and the number 5 represents their redemption. Five is used in context of redemption in Numbers 3:50.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Matthew 3:9-10 And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Yes, in Christ, we are the seed of Abraham, but the Nation of Israel will be redeemed at the End of the Age, as well. Christ cut down the fig tree, but Israel will be regrafted in. That is the budding of the fig branches in Matt 24.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

That sounds like Replacement Theology.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I didnt intend for it to sound that way. Leah did not replace Rachel, instead, Jacob paid for them both. In the same way, the Church did not replace Israel, instead, the Church was grafted in until Christ could return for Israel. Why else would God let Jacob take two wives? It paints a prophetic picture of Christ, Israel, and the Church.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

That sounds like Replacement Theology.

It's the New Testament and Christianity.
You may want to get on board.

edit to add: oops, I was reading what opinionated b wrote, that believer priest was quoting.
In regards to what BELIEVERpriest wrote, I'm not sure that is or isn't since he seems to be going off into his own interpretation.

The normal interpretation is what you (meaning to anyone in your Dispensationalist cult) would call replacement, that Israel, as a concept, goes on through those who believe in Jesus, while literal Israel that gets saved is those Jews who have became Christians.
Paul was writing in the future tense about something that has since happened, and is to us today in the past.

a reply to: jmdewey60

It is what everyone is missing, looking at the old testament end of time prophecy through new testament eyes. The Jews who were saved already have been, while anyone Jew or christian can become saved, the main body of those being spoken of to come back to the faith, are Christians who may have left the faith or are hypocrites, as it is the Christians who are now Israel and Judah.

People seem to miss this, they look at prophecy and ignore who the Jews are in OUR time.. but its based in ignorance of scripture, or simply ignoring the entirety of the new testament to come up with that line of thinking.

When we as Christians sin, we are killing Jesus all over again, so it is written. This is where the remorse comes in at the end of times, realizing that we have done this.. killed the Messiah...

Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?


Hebrews 5 - 6 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Zechariah 12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


This is speaking of Christians...

a reply to: OpinionatedB

This is speaking of Christians...

Zechariah 12:10 is interpreted by the gospel as being about the people who were to be punished, who said, "Let his blood be on our heads". That came true when they saw the Romans encircling Jerusalem, laying siege on it preparatory to its destruction, that what they had asked for was coming about.

Hebrews, I think is suggesting, a bit indirectly, the same thing, ultimately, that Christians who renounce Christianity to return to Judaism as it existed at the time of writing, close before that calamity befell Jerusalem, that they would be inadvertently joining in that punishment.

So I am disagreeing with the idea that these things are still in the future, but that they were in the future back then, and now to us, in the ancient past.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Until the Jews recognize the Messiah, they are under the Covenant of the Law. Those of us who recognize Christ are under the Covenant of Grace. Messianic Jews are Jews who recognize Christ and are saved under the Covenant of Grace. It is arguable that Kaduri might have seen the truth in his final prophecy and become Messianic.

As you know, the Covenant of Law is difficult if not impossible to live by. But faithful Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. Those who remain faithful cannot miss Him the second time around because Christ at that time will come as the conqueror King they have always expected Him to be. He will be much more like the David-style figure they were wanting in His second coming - the great warrior, not the gentle teacher.

a reply to: jmdewey60

LMAO, "Dispensationalist Cult". You crack me up sometimes, JM

a reply to: ketsuko

Until the Jews recognize the Messiah, they are under the Covenant of the Law.

Where do you get that from?
Not from the New Testament.

a reply to: jmdewey60

I get that from reasoning.

God set forth the Law from the Covenant of the Law, and Christ said it has not passed away. He did not come to change that. Christ did say that those who believed in Him could be forgiven - Grace. This is the Covenant of Grace.

So those who do not accept or believe in Christ are not under the Covenant of Grace. They are under the Covenant of the Law which has not changed.

Since the Jews do not recognize Christ, they are under the Covenant of the Law. Those who are faithful Jews are still waiting for the Messiah as they do not believe Christ was the promised Messiah. They were waiting for someone more like King David whom they believed would free them from Rome. According to Revelation, at the 2nd coming, this is the sort of figure that Christ will be, but he will not be freeing the Jews from Rome. Instead, he will be freeing the Jews from the last Empire and the reign of the final anti-Christ.

a reply to: ketsuko


All who live under the law will die under the law, because through the law no one can be justified. Justification is through Christ Jesus alone. This isn't changing in the end times just because they decided to believe when they saw him, they will be judged according to the law, and so die because no one can be justified by the law.

Galatians 2:16
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:22 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Yes, and right up until the end, many will be lost. It says only a remnant of a remnant. But at the end, those who are left will see and many will acknowledge and believe and be saved, and those who are Messianic Jews and come out to the wilderness will also be saved because they know Christ already even if they call Him Messiah.

God will deal harshly with His people.

a reply to: jmdewey60

You are correct it very well could be in our past since it could have been from any time since the outpouring of the Holy Spirit...

I probably spoke without thinking on that - thank you for correcting my error.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: OpinionatedB

Yes, and right up until the end, many will be lost. It says only a remnant of a remnant. But at the end, those who are left will see and many will acknowledge and believe and be saved, and those who are Messianic Jews and come out to the wilderness will also be saved because they know Christ already even if they call Him Messiah.

God will deal harshly with His people.

But you are back to placing that remnant as being entirely Jewish. Anyone can convert to Christianity in the last days all through the 6 plagues.. but from the 7th plague there is no escape.

Israel isn't about blood, its about spirit in our days.. God isn't going after a bunch of people because they have the right blood type in the last days, he is going after those with heart.

a reply to: ketsuko

the Covenant of the Law

Which is . . what?

Christ said it has not passed away.

Jesus said that his own words would not pass away.
He didn't say anything about a covenant of Law.
Jesus made his own covenant, apparently overriding any preexisting one.

He did not come to change that.

OK, this is your own interpretation and not what the text says. Jesus said that he was not come to nullify the law, and he then proceeded to make changes to it, only keeping the spirit of it intact, and showing how it covers more than what is narrowly defined in the writing.
What you seem to be implying without saying it is that all the ceremonial parts of the Book of Moses were supposed to still be recognized as remaining intact. Well, I don't think that is the case, and there is nowhere in the New Testament that says so. In fact it seems to be saying the opposite, that making a new covenant makes the old one obsolete.

So those who do not accept or believe in Christ are not under the Covenant of Grace.

Which is . . what?
There isn't an actual covenant, that is just a word people knew that was convenient for making an analogy.
Now, I realize that there are people who will dispute what I just said, but there just isn't one.
Jesus made a metaphor about blood and a covenant and it was about his imminent death so "blood" really meant his being killed, with blood involved, and that death was going to be like a way of sealing something important. That important thing was our salvation, which was the intent with the old covenant, to establish a rationale for what God did to rescue Israel from Pharaoh's army and their crossing to Sinai.
Jesus was saving these disciples by creating the church which they were then members of, all made possible through his death which ended up being the gateway to his being resurrected and his ascent to Heaven.

According to Revelation, at the 2nd coming, . . .

There is no second coming in Revelation.
And there is no antichrist to free anyone from. All those things in Revelation are merely symbolic for God's victory over evil.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

You are correct it very well could be in our past since it could have been from any time since the outpouring of the Holy Spirit...

I think that is the primary way to understand it but there is other things that can be gleaned from it besides just what I said.

My thing is to get away from a lot of speculative apocalyptic thinking and to see where the New Testament writers were saying that the apocalypse had already happened, the unveiling of the mystery that was not understood until after the fact that salvation would come through the death of Christ.

a reply to: ketsuko

God set forth the Law from the Covenant of the Law, and Christ said it has not passed away.

You are confusing the Hebrew way of saying the word "law" (torah) and the "prophets" (the old testament) with Jesus someway endorsing the law of Moses.

Torah is the Hebrew word for "law". What Jesus was saying is that the Torah and the Prophets would not have one jot or tittle pass away from it until all of it was fulfilled. Meaning, every single prophecy given therein would come to pass. He wasn't saying the law of Moses or the first covenant would remain in effect forever. That's a gross mistranslation of what Jesus was saying.

a reply to: ketsuko

So those who do not accept or believe in Christ are not under the Covenant of Grace. They are under the Covenant of the Law which has not changed.

Well that's a shame for them, they have not had a temple for providing sacrifices under the law for the remission of their sins since 70 A.D.

Have you read Galatians?